brodiac90 Posted May 9 Share Posted May 9 The following statements regarding previously discussed issues RE the TOS changes to child avatars were made at the Governance meeting on 09/5/24 between 14:00 - 15:00 by Tommy Linden and Keira Linden. At no point am I attempting to pass myself off as a Linden, all of these statements were made in public chat and have been copy and pasted as they were posted. They do not necessarily appear in the order they were said and not everything that was said has been included for brevity's sake. I have tried my best to present the statements in order of the communities biggest concerns. I have consulted with Tommy Linden and asked his permission to post these statements. Please note these statments reflect what Tommy Linden and Keira Linden said on 09/05/24 and that Linden Labs reserves the right to change its TOS and child avatar policy at any time. These statments will no longer be factually correct if and when Linden Labs updates its current position. My own thoughts - It is clear the Lindens and Moles have been listening to community feedback and that they have clarified a lot of quesitons. Q: Modesty layers | What does cannot be removed mean? Keira Linden - Quote [14:59] Keira Linden: Cannot be removed means just that. It cannot be removed by any means. In response to a question pointing out skins can be replaced. Keira Linden - Quote [14:59] Keira Linden: Yes, and if a new one is applied then it will need to have the modesty layers Tommy Linden adding support - Quote [15:00] Tommy Linden: We do realize that skins can be removed, and at that point, if someone chooses to do so in an attempt to do something they shouldnt, then they are clearly going out of their way to violate our policy. Keira Linden clarifying: Quote [14:35] Keira Linden: The other concern in regards to the modesty layer is how it will impact existing content. To be clear, we are requiring skin sellers to have the areas shown in the images use a modesty layer on the skin files. However, for existing content, bake layers and alphas can be a viable temporary solution but we would STRONGLY encourage everyone to move to a more permanent solution. Keira Linden: Quote [14:36] Keira Linden: Regarding enforcement of these new policies, I do know that there will be an adjustment period Tommy Linden when asked to clarify timeline of when bom underwear / alphas will be phased out for skin modesty layers. Stressing education will be offered first if that is possible. Quote [14:52] Tommy Linden: Hey Madi Perth, we don't have a specific timeline, we will do our best to notify the community when that no longer becomes an option. We certainly don't want to just outright start actioning accounts, and would rather as mentioned take an educational approach first where ever we can. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Question: What ages does the policy apply to? Is it just for little children or anyone under 18? Keira Linden: Quote [14:35] Keira Linden: We understand there is some confusion regarding the age range that would be expected to follow the new policy, so we want to clarify that anyone presenting under the age of 18 will be required to follow the policy in regards to child avatars. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Question: Do furries and other child like avatars fall under the new policy? Tommy Linden - Quote [14:42] Tommy Linden: For those asking about clarification on age, regardless of your gender, whether or not you are a furry, or participating in the anime community, if you are presenting as under the age of 18, that is required to follow our policy regarding child avatars. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Question: Will you consider removing the back part of the modesty layer for female presenting child avatars? Keira Linden - Quote [14:34] Keira Linden: One of the biggest changes and points of concern is around the requirement of modesty layers on child avatars, so we have added some images to the FAQ to demonstrate what we are looking for there. I have seen the requests on the forums to have the back of the modesty layer for female avatars be optional, and that makes perfect sense to me. I need a little bit of time to propose and get approvals for that clarification to the policy itself and once I have what I need I can update the FAQ with that new guidance. Keira Linden expanding: Quote [14:44] Keira Linden: I brought along a few models for the modesty layers. Based on some forum comments, I will be recommending that the back panel on the female model be optional. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Question: Surely requiring bras / chest modesty layers on babies / toddlers sexualises them, will you consider removing this requirement? Keria Linden: Quote [14:55] Keira Linden: I hear you all on the modesty layer on infants, and is something I am willing to consider, but I can't promise that any change will be made at this time. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Question: Can a child presenting avatar also have an adult presenting avatar on the same account? What happens if I'm reported for being a child avatar while presenting as an adult avatar? Keira Linden: Quote [14:51] Keira Linden: Jenni, if you are reported and you are in an adult avatar that is how we will evaluate the report. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Question: How are falisified reports dealt with? Tommy Linden: Quote [14:54] Tommy Linden: In regards to potentially falsified reports, this is why we do not rely on just the report itself, it is merely the starting point that we use for our investigation. As mentioned previously, I can not disclose our internal tools, but we have various ways to review a report and the context around every situation, to help us ensure we are taking the appropriate action. Tommy Linden adding extra information on false reports: Quote [14:54] Tommy Linden: Also, if we find someone that is continuously submitting falsified reports, we will address that behavior as well. I can assure you, it does not go unnoticed by us. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Question: How will the TOS changes 'meet the road' with regard to accidental teleports? Keira Linden: Quote [14:55] Keira Linden: Anwenn, if a report is made we do look at the intent of the Resident. We can tell if someone popped into a region then immediately left. 3 22 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scylla Rhiadra Posted May 9 Share Posted May 9 Alright. Forgive double posting, but this is a better place to post this. 6 12 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ayashe Ninetails Posted May 9 Share Posted May 9 Just now, Scylla Rhiadra said: Alright. Forgive double posting, but this is a better place to post this. Thank you for this, LOL. I jumped the gun and didn't wait for a new thread. Whoops! Also, thank you @brodiac90 for the partial transcript. 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Love Zhaoying Posted May 9 Share Posted May 9 19 minutes ago, brodiac90 said: Question: Do furries and other child like avatars fall under the new policy? Tommy Linden - Quote [14:42] Tommy Linden: For those asking about clarification on age, regardless of your gender, whether or not you are a furry, or participating in the anime community, if you are presenting as under the age of 18, that is required to follow our policy regarding child avatars. Expand Furries - ferals - with modesty layers sure is a surprise! I guess the answer is to present as an adult! ..whatever an adult feral is! 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Codex Alpha Posted May 9 Share Posted May 9 See.. not that hard, 1000 pages and 10,000 panic'd posts later. 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ayashe Ninetails Posted May 9 Share Posted May 9 6 minutes ago, Love Zhaoying said: Furries - ferals - with modesty layers sure is a surprise! I guess the answer is to present as an adult! ..whatever an adult feral is! That's kind of hilarious, honestly. I mean, the thought of a furry running around in a speedo, anyway. In practice, that sounds like a nightmare. I don't even know what a younger furry looks like or how it's made, but I'd imagine their skins are already blanked out/PG. Hell, mine mostly are and they're sold as adult. I gotta use BOM layers if I want any detail on there (which I don't, thanks). 6 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scylla Rhiadra Posted May 10 Share Posted May 10 10 minutes ago, Ayashe Ninetails said: That's kind of hilarious, honestly. I mean, the thought of a furry running around in a speedo, anyway. In practice, that sounds like a nightmare. I don't even know what a younger furry looks like or how it's made, but I'd imagine their skins are already blanked out/PG. Hell, mine mostly are and they're sold as adult. I gotta use BOM layers if I want any detail on there (which I don't, thanks). Most of the push back I'm seeing at the moment is about nonbinary, furry, and fairies. Things, in fact, that really didn't get a full discussion in previous threads, and that are going to be difficult and contentious. Also someone asking that "extreme violence" be now permitted on Moderate regions so that kids can participate in combat RP. Which I'd sure as hell fight. And also, kids in gory, violent combat RP? WTF? 4 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
diamond Marchant Posted May 10 Share Posted May 10 Fashion review... I liked Kiera's hair clips. Tommy looked fine but perhaps a little too much like a bouncer. 2 1 9 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brodiac90 Posted May 10 Author Share Posted May 10 3 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said: Most of the push back I'm seeing at the moment is about nonbinary, furry, and fairies. Things, in fact, that really didn't get a full discussion in previous threads, and that are going to be difficult and contentious. Also someone asking that "extreme violence" be now permitted on Moderate regions so that kids can participate in combat RP. Which I'd sure as hell fight. And also, kids in gory, violent combat RP? WTF? I too found that disturbing but didn't want to address it at the time as I wanted everyone to be quiet while the Lindens spoke. 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arielle Popstar Posted May 10 Share Posted May 10 2 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said: Also someone asking that "extreme violence" be now permitted on Moderate regions so that kids can participate in combat RP. Which I'd sure as hell fight. And also, kids in gory, violent combat RP? WTF? They are adults after all and it is only potential sex scenes that threaten SL's existence, not the virtual killing of each other 1 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scylla Rhiadra Posted May 10 Share Posted May 10 Just now, brodiac90 said: I too found that disturbing but didn't want to address it at the time as I wanted everyone to be quiet while the Lindens spoke. I think it's a non-starter. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brodiac90 Posted May 10 Author Share Posted May 10 Just now, Scylla Rhiadra said: I think it's a non-starter. Without question. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MissSweetViolet Posted May 10 Share Posted May 10 I just got through watching the video, over all I'm satisfied. I think the only thing things they didn't really answer yet was, is it going to be okay to use alphas for clothing [my assumption is yes as long as the modesty skin is worn, but would still be nice to hear it definitively], and how this affects older teens who use adult bodies. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ayashe Ninetails Posted May 10 Share Posted May 10 1 minute ago, Scylla Rhiadra said: Most of the push back I'm seeing at the moment is about nonbinary, furry, and fairies. Things, in fact, that really didn't get a full discussion in previous threads, and that are going to be difficult and contentious. Also someone asking that "extreme violence" be now permitted on Moderate regions so that kids can participate in combat RP. Which I'd sure as hell fight. And also, kids in gory, violent combat RP? WTF? I'm about to dig into the video now, but I'm already seeing people getting kind of...angsty, and they haven't even officially started yet. Fairies???? Those are adult unless you're doing some Tinkerbell reboot type of deal (aren't they born adults though?). What the...? I mean...teen, okay? But I dunno, man...Rosetta's a little sassypants who makes very similar jokes to Blanche from Golden Girls, so I'm not quite so sure they're that young... And no, extreme violence on Moderate sounds like bad ideas. 8 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Honey Puddles Posted May 10 Share Posted May 10 (edited) On 5/8/2024 at 3:34 PM, brodiac90 said: I agree and think LL have been very reasonable. The only content those modesty layers break are content that kid avatars shouldn't be wearing anyway. Probably because the knowledge Base has this to say about Adult Regions in regards to violence.. Quote Adult The Adult designation applies to Second Life regions that host, conduct, or display content that is sexually explicit, intensely violent, or depicts illicit drug use. A region must be designated Adult if it hosts, advertises, or publicly promotes: Representations of intensely violent acts, for example depicting death, torture, dismemberment or other severe bodily harm, whether or not photo-realistic (meaning that images either are or cannot be distinguished from a photograph). Note that "Whether or not photorealistic" part.. These all sound like extremely disgusting, visceral terms.. but think for a minute.. a light saber duel meets this criteria. Being shot with bullets, lasers, getting cut in half by a light saber.. an argument can be made that even being 'shot down in a plane' might meet this qualification. "depicting death" "not photo-realistic"... "Ohhh he got me! X.X" A splash of cartoon blood and a combat meter that says 'you died'.. Edited May 10 by Honey Puddles 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Love Zhaoying Posted May 10 Share Posted May 10 34 minutes ago, Ayashe Ninetails said: That's kind of hilarious, honestly. I mean, the thought of a furry running around in a speedo, anyway. In practice, that sounds like a nightmare. I don't even know what a younger furry looks like or how it's made, but I'd imagine their skins are already blanked out/PG. Hell, mine mostly are and they're sold as adult. I gotta use BOM layers if I want any detail on there (which I don't, thanks). Implied, adult ferals etc. etc.! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scylla Rhiadra Posted May 10 Share Posted May 10 2 minutes ago, Honey Puddles said: Probably because the knowledge Base has this to say about Adult Regions in regards to violence.. Note that "Whether or not photorealistic" part.. These all sound like extremely disgusting, visceral terms.. but think for a minute.. a light saber duel meets this criteria. Being shot with bullets, lasers, getting cut in half by a light saber.. an argument can be made that even being 'shot down in a plane' might meet this qualification. "depicting death" "not photo-realistic"... "Ohhh he got me! X.X" I take extreme violence to mean what it says . . . extreme violence. And most especially graphic violence. 4 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coffee Pancake Posted May 10 Share Posted May 10 (edited) 1 minute ago, Scylla Rhiadra said: I take extreme violence to mean what it says . . . extreme violence. And most especially graphic violence. This is adult content according to the ratings. Getting run though and cut in half ARE graphic and violent. Edited May 10 by Coffee Pancake 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Love Zhaoying Posted May 10 Share Posted May 10 8 minutes ago, Honey Puddles said: splash of cartoon blood ..body fluids..?! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rowan Amore Posted May 10 Share Posted May 10 (edited) 50 minutes ago, Ayashe Ninetails said: That's kind of hilarious, honestly. I mean, the thought of a furry running around in a speedo, anyway. In practice, that sounds like a nightmare. I don't even know what a younger furry looks like or how it's made, but I'd imagine their skins are already blanked out/PG. Hell, mine mostly are and they're sold as adult. I gotta use BOM layers if I want any detail on there (which I don't, thanks). Since, technically, the skin is UNDER any animal's fur... Edited May 10 by Rowan Amore 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scylla Rhiadra Posted May 10 Share Posted May 10 11 minutes ago, Coffee Pancake said: This is adult content according to the ratings. Getting run though and cut in half ARE graphic and violent. I wouldn't consider that "extreme" or "graphic," nor I suspect would Governance. And it's a lousy justification for opening the floodgates on Moderate to not merely combat RP, but also snuff, Dolcett, torture RP, etc. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kaia Sachin Posted May 10 Share Posted May 10 So it sounds like people who are using adult bodies to roleplay tweens/teens are going to need to buy body skins that have the modesty layers baked into them as well. If creators don't make skins with modesty layers for the adult bodies, then the people who are roleplaying as teens are going to be need to use a mesh child avatar body instead. Then child content creators will need to start making clothes for that age group, since it would be weird for them to wear the type of clothes that are available for child avatars. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BriannaLovey Posted May 10 Share Posted May 10 At some point, whatever subcultures of people still using young-looking (child or otherwise) avatars on SL will have it in their best interests to leave for another platform due to the increasing amounts of corporate red tape regarding their lifestyle. The normies who don't like young-looking avatars will stay on SL, those who they don't like will leave for greener pastures, and neither will bother one another ever again. Not saying this is what I want or don't want, just that this is outcome is made inevitable due to the incentive structure LL is creating. 1 2 3 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ayashe Ninetails Posted May 10 Share Posted May 10 12 minutes ago, Rowan Amore said: Since, technically, the skin is UNDER any animal's fur... Yep, though there are absolutely some rather lewd mod kits and accessories out there, but it's not difficult whatsoever to put together a very modest G-friendly furry look if that's what you're going for. Even easier since adults are made with all the major popular bodies and can wear whatever they want. Btw, still going through this video and...yikes. It's a lot. 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brodiac90 Posted May 10 Author Share Posted May 10 (edited) 6 minutes ago, Ayashe Ninetails said: Yep, though there are absolutely some rather lewd mod kits and accessories out there, but it's not difficult whatsoever to put together a very modest G-friendly furry look if that's what you're going for. Even easier since adults are made with all the major popular bodies and can wear whatever they want. Btw, still going through this video and...yikes. It's a lot. The chat was going crazy. It was nice to meet some of the people from the threads though. Me and @Madi Melodious stood together as a form of solidatiry since we've both been heavily involved in all the discussions. Saw @Coffee Pancake too. Edited May 10 by brodiac90 14 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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