Modesty Patch Discussion

[Madi Melodious]

Now that we have the modesty patch examples from the Lab.  I was just approached with a question about it.  What will be the Lab's policy on transgender issue and how the modesty patches are applied?  

[Katherine Heartsong]

Not sure as it relates to child avatars within SL and what the question is? For sake of discussion ...

Child avatars don't have any genitalia. Agreed? So if you are dealing with gender dysphoria and identify as the opposite sex in a child avatar in SL, why would you not just use the child avatar (with the gender-correct associated modesty panels) that you gender identify with?

There's no transgender issue as far as I can see when dealing with child avatars, is there? Can you explain what you mean by the word "issue"?

[Madi Melodious]

3 minutes ago, Katherine Heartsong said:

Not sure as it relates to child avatars within SL and what the question is? For sake of discussion ...

Child avatars don't have any genitalia. Agreed? So if you are dealing with gender dysphoria and identify as the opposite sex in a child avatar in SL, why would you not just use the child avatar (with the gender-correct associated modesty panels) that you gender identify with?

There's no transgender issue as far as I can see when dealing with child avatars, is there? Can you explain what you mean by the word "issue"?

The question is concerning the top layer specifically.   If they are identifying at a boy one day, and a girl the next, do they need to wear the top layer all the time.   I don't know what to tell them.  My best response right now is to wear both layers no matter what but then that will affect the identity they are assuming.   And I have the feeling what I tell them will affect the whole community in world. 

So, yeah.  

[Persephone Emerald]

I think that if a child avatar doesn't show any breast development, they should be able to go topless without a bra-like modesty layer. Also, If a toddler wouldn't wear a bra in RL, they shouldn't have to wear one in SL.

All this is just my opinion, however. I'm not a Linden or Mole.

Maybe they can wear a gender-neutral T-shirt or bib that covers their nipples?

Edited May 8 by Persephone Emerald

[Codex Alpha]

 

1 hour ago, Madi Melodious said:

Now that we have the modesty patch examples from the Lab.  I was just approached with a question about it.  What will be the Lab's policy on transgender issue and how the modesty patches are applied? 

The question is concerning the top layer specifically.   If they are identifying at a boy one day, and a girl the next, do they need to wear the top layer all the time.   I don't know what to tell them.  My best response right now is to wear both layers no matter what but then that will affect the identity they are assuming.   And I have the feeling what I tell them will affect the whole community in world. 

So, yeah.  

If you are 'presenting' with Type A, that has a XY chromosome, then you don't need an upper cover.

If you are 'presenting' as a Type B body, that has XX chromosomes, then you do need an upper cover.

Use your best judgement, you're smart enough to figure this out.

To add to more confusion for everybody:

It's the same body, just change your hair and top layer. hehehehehehehehe (boy sure has a feminine bum by the way, boy's bums are not hourglass shaped)

Edited May 8 by Codex Alpha
Added amazing visuals to help or hinder, depending on the viewpoint of the reader

[Scylla Rhiadra]

And if you are non-binary?

[Madi Melodious]

2 minutes ago, Codex Alpha said:

 

If you are 'presenting' with Type A, that has a XY chromosome, then you don't need an upper cover.

If you are 'presenting' as a Type B body, that has XX chromosomes, then you do need an upper cover.

Use your best judgement, you're smart enough to figure this out.

I'm not going to tell them to use their best judgement.    I'm not going to handwave away this issue. 

[SpiritSparrow Skydancer]

2 hours ago, Madi Melodious said:

Now that we have the modesty patch examples from the Lab.  I was just approached with a question about it.  What will be the Lab's policy on transgender issue and how the modesty patches are applied?  

I don’t think transgender has anything to do with a modesty patch for a child avatar. 

[Love Zhaoying]

"Patch" or "Panel"? 

[Ayashe Ninetails]

44 minutes ago, Madi Melodious said:

The question is concerning the top layer specifically.   If they are identifying at a boy one day, and a girl the next, do they need to wear the top layer all the time.   I don't know what to tell them.  My best response right now is to wear both layers no matter what but then that will affect the identity they are assuming.   And I have the feeling what I tell them will affect the whole community in world. 

So, yeah.  

This is a very good question, Madi. If you're going to the meeting tomorrow, I'd suggest bringing that up as a question for LL to answer. If you won't be there, perhaps someone else who is going can ask.

[Madi Melodious]

1 minute ago, Ayashe Ninetails said:

This is a very good question, Madi. If you're going to the meeting tomorrow, I'd suggest bringing that up as a question for LL to answer. If you won't be there, perhaps someone else who is going can ask.

I plan to be there.  

[Codex Alpha]

12 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

And if you are non-binary?

The examples are already non-binary. The avatar used just switched hairs. The LL who gave us this pic was very clever with their time Seem my earlier post.

[Codex Alpha]

12 minutes ago, Madi Melodious said:

I'm not going to tell them to use their best judgement.    I'm not going to handwave away this issue. 

I gave you a good answer to your question, but feel free to ask it tomorrow, where you'll get the same answer. If you present yourself one way, or another would probably determine, using your best judgement (and common sense) as to what you want to use...

Not like I'm going to know your intent, if I did see your avatar, but neither would I care either - so I don't think it's as panicy as one might expect.

I could do this all day.

[Persephone Emerald]

53 minutes ago, Madi Melodious said:

The question is concerning the top layer specifically.   If they are identifying at a boy one day, and a girl the next, do they need to wear the top layer all the time.   I don't know what to tell them.  My best response right now is to wear both layers no matter what but then that will affect the identity they are assuming.   And I have the feeling what I tell them will affect the whole community in world. 

So, yeah.  

Maybe they can dress "as a girl" when they want to present as a girl, "as a boy" when they want to present as a boy, and dress gender neutral when they want to present as gender neutral?

This isn't just a theoretical argument. Who hasn't heard someone ask an adult if their baby is a boy or a girl? I even asked an older kid serving food in my school cafeteria "Are you a boy or a girl?" when I was young. He had long hair, and I hadn't yet developed a mature ability to distinguish gender.

[Ayashe Ninetails]

Just now, Madi Melodious said:

I plan to be there.  

Okay good. If they do answer that question (and I'm hoping they do - even if it seems obvious, some people are understandably a bit unsure of things right now), it'd be helpful if they add the response to the FAQ, too.

In the meantime, I'd tell those asking that the topic will be brought up tomorrow. 

[Kathlen Onyx]

OFTLOG

There are two sexes in SL.  A Female and a Male.  Everything else is in-between.

If you are a trans child going from female to male, then just wear the dang male child body and visa versa.

If you are non-binary. Pick one, pick the other but just pick one. Buy both the female and male body if you feel you need to switch back and forth.

It's not that hard and a lot less than it could have been. 

As far as wearing a bathing suit you obviously can't wear a bathing suit that shows anything less than this so it won't affect your clothing.  If you are wearing anything that is in danger of having the modestly panel show,  you shouldn't be wearing it anyway.

 

[Love Zhaoying]

They should have made "merkins" an option.

[brodiac90]

1 hour ago, Madi Melodious said:

The question is concerning the top layer specifically.   If they are identifying at a boy one day, and a girl the next, do they need to wear the top layer all the time.   I don't know what to tell them.  My best response right now is to wear both layers no matter what but then that will affect the identity they are assuming.   And I have the feeling what I tell them will affect the whole community in world. 

So, yeah.  

If one day they identify as a boy they wear boys clothes and the modesty layer appropriate for boys, and vise versa for girls. 

The only time it would be an issue is if someone insisted they were a boy and only wanted to wear a boy modesty layer while having a very clearly defined chest. In that circumstance, sorry no, TOS overrides any identity issues. 

[Sammy Huntsman]

3 hours ago, Madi Melodious said:

Now that we have the modesty patch examples from the Lab.  I was just approached with a question about it.  What will be the Lab's policy on transgender issue and how the modesty patches are applied?  

Transgender issue? What does trans people have to do with child avatars. I mean unless you are a trans child avatar, the rules would apply to them too. 

[LittleMe Jewell]

14 minutes ago, Kathlen Onyx said:

If you are wearing anything that is in danger of having the modestly panel show,  you shouldn't be wearing it anyway.

You have to remember that the 'child avatar' rules apply to ALL avatars that are under the age of 18.

The defined modesty layer makes perfect sense for anyone grade school age and under, but it is a bit much, IMO, for anyone older than that. In other words, anyone playing a late teen just got screwed, clothing-wise.

I wore tops like the one pictured below when I was in my teens (i.e. middle school and high school).  There is nothing inappropriate with this top -- yet it would be showing part of the female upper modesty panel, and thus (by your statement) is something that I shouldn't have been wearing anyway.

Though, with a bit of work, the back strap of the modesty panel can possibly be worked to be lower than the top over it.  I guess it depends on how the creators ultimately make the back strap of that panel and how creators make tops where the upper back is bare.

 

Edited May 8 by LittleMe Jewell

[Sammy Huntsman]

That and too add. If you are a prepubertal child avatar, you wouldn't have chesticles. The only child avatar who would have that, is a teen avatar. So really what does this have to do with the trans people? 

[brodiac90]

Also can I just say that I was pleasantly surprised that LL didn't end up insisting boy's have a chest modesty layer. The FAQ also had quite a bit of reassurance so I'm glad we did discuss what we did since it's very obvious LL took into account what we said. 

Edited May 8 by brodiac90

[Kathlen Onyx]

2 minutes ago, LittleMe Jewell said:

You have to remember that the 'child avatar' rules apply to ALL avatars that are under the age of 18.

The defined modesty layer makes perfect sense for anyone grade school age and under, but it is a bit much, IMO, for anyone older than that. In other words, anyone playing a late teen just got screwed, clothing-wise.

I wore tops like the one pictured below when I was in my teens (i.e. middle school and high school).  There is nothing inappropriate with this top -- yet it would be showing part of the female upper modesty panel, and thus (by your statement) is something that I shouldn't have been wearing anyway.

 

Well then ya got screwed. Age up your avatar a few years then.  In SL you can't wear it simple as that.  How many times have people said SL is not RL yet they sure are referencing it A LOT on this topic.

If you think in any way, shape or form SL is going to go less than this or get rid of it, I doubt it. People should be thankful that they didn't go further than underwear and require a biker short style of the panel from your groin to upper legs. 

Rest assured you can still wear the short skirts.

 

[Codex Alpha]

1 minute ago, brodiac90 said:

Also can I just say that I was pleasantly surprised that LL didn't end up insisting boy's have a chest modesty layer. The FAQ also had quite a bit of reassurance so I'm glad we did discuss what we did since it's very obvious LL took into account what we said. 

Or they applied common sense and reason, and went with thousands of years of human knowledge of body anatomy and made an appropriate (and expected) decision.

[Codex Alpha]

Just now, Kathlen Onyx said:

Well then ya got screwed. Age up your avatar a few years then.  In SL you can't wear it simple as that.  How many times have people said SL is not RL yet they sure are referencing it A LOT on this topic.

If you think in any way, shape or form SL is going to go less than this or get rid of it, I doubt it. People should be thankful that they didn't go further than underwear and require a biker short style of the panel from your groin to upper legs. 

Rest assured you can still wear the short skirts.

 

Yeah why the obsession for some to have naughty bits on avatars aged 18 and down anyway... Modesty pants for all I say, is fine! Fully adult 18+ 'presenting' do what you want (in A areas :D)