So what changed in the Terms of Service?

[Denim Robonaught]

4 minutes ago, SpiritSparrow Skydancer said:

Second life is constantly changing. The same arguments were said when mesh clothing was released. Then mesh bodies, making 95% of previously made clothing and accessories useless.
 

will not be hard for child skin makers to change their skins. Hell even pre mesh avatars had panties and bras drawn on skins. 
 

 There is absolutely no reason for bathing suit bits to be on child avatars. And it concerns me that there are and now it needs to change. 
 

 To be honest all they have to do is go into library and use an old Ruth or whoever the boy was. There are underpants on that skin afaik just use a new head/skin….

 

Although I understand the sentiment, those were changes as part of advancements, and no one was forbidden to use their old skins or attire

[brodiac90]

1 minute ago, Luna Bliss said:

People tend to stop whining when you pay attention to their feelings...when you show some consideration for their side of things.

Indeed, and I wouldn't say it has been 200 pages of whining. The majority of it has been sensible and civil discussion. Maybe people just keep trying to get a reaction out of us, but it's not worked? 

Edited May 7 by brodiac90

[Coffee Pancake]

1 minute ago, Vivienne Schell said:

The same happened to gazillion of people who bought some scripted stuff ages ago which was rendered obsolete by LSL changes. They did not make up 200 pages of whining over that.

Obviously the very existence of this thread upsets you, maybe it's time to take a break because none of this is helping anyone.

Only makes it more like those only just finding out about the changes will feel unwelcome in asking questions .. which is why this thread exists and is being allowed to continue.

Getting it shut down is in no one's interest.

[SpiritSparrow Skydancer]

4 minutes ago, brodiac90 said:

Madi and I aren't talking about bits.

We're talking about kids skins that apart from not having a modesty layer don't actully show anthing and already resemble barbie dolls. The only difference between the skins will be the modesty layer. 

I do not understand why you would need a modesty layer if you have no skin detailing for m/f anatomy. 
 

perhaps I do not understand the TOS but from what I do understand it is only to cover skins that have the anatomy already. 
 

 

 

Edited May 7 by SpiritSparrow Skydancer

[Luna Bliss]

1 minute ago, brodiac90 said:

2 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

People tend to stop whining when you pay attention to their feelings...when you show some consideration for their side of things.

Indeed, and I wouldn't say it has been 200 pages of whining. The majority of it has been sensible and civil discussion. 

What I've discovered in my 20 years of Second Life, is that those who trash child avatars tend to have trouble accepting their own inner child. So I hope those who play child avatars don't take it too personally, and have some sympathy for those so out of touch with themselves. It really is a miserable state to be in -- to be so out of touch with a fundamental part of the self.

[Vivienne Schell]

1 minute ago, Luna Bliss said:

People tend to stop whining when you pay attention to their feelings...when you show some consideration for their side of things.

That might be true, but in my opinion these moderate changes are muuuuch more "showing consideration for their side" than necessary.

[Denim Robonaught]

7 minutes ago, Vivienne Schell said:

The same happened to gazillion of people who bought some scripted stuff ages ago which was rendered obsolete by LSL changes. They did not make up 200 pages of whining over that.

I'm pretty sure you make up a good part of those 200 pages.

[brodiac90]

Just now, SpiritSparrow Skydancer said:

I do not understand why you would need a modesty layer if you have no skin detailing for m/f anatomy. 
 

perhaps I do not understand the TOS but from what I do understand it is only to cover skins that have the anatomy already. 
 

 

Well I can't exactly show you.... but literally as a boy you would see nothing on the front, just completely flat with no texture any different to the rest of the skin. If I was nude (I never have been nor will I ever) you'd see my bottom. So the major difference between the current skins for kids is now there will be underpants covering the rear. On the front all you're doing is replacing a peach (insert any other skin tone) colour for a white/black/blue/red whatever underwear texture. 

[SpiritSparrow Skydancer]

Just now, Luna Bliss said:

What I've discovered in my 20 years of Second Life, is that those who trash child avatars tend to have trouble accepting their own inner child. So I hope those who play child avatars don't take it too personally, and have some sympathy for those so out of touch with themselves. It really is a miserable state to be in -- to be so out of touch with a fundamental part of the self.

I do not think anyone is trashing child avatars.  I think they are adorable. 
 

 I do have an issue that there are sick freaks who find pleasure in virtually molesting child avatars. 
 

assuming that this is being put into place because of a recent blog post that shall not be named! 
 

 

[SpiritSparrow Skydancer]

1 minute ago, brodiac90 said:

Well I can't exactly show you.... but literally as a boy you would see nothing on the front, just completely flat with no texture any different to the rest of the skin. If I was nude (I never have been nor will I ever) you'd see my bottom. So the major difference between the current skins for kids is now there will be underpants covering the rear. On the front all you're doing is replacing a peach (insert any other skin tone) colour for a white/black/blue/red whatever underwear texture. 

Ok, I can understand that 

[Vivienne Schell]

6 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

What I've discovered in my 20 years of Second Life, is that those who trash child avatars tend to have trouble accepting their own inner child. So I hope those who play child avatars don't take it too personally, and have some sympathy for those so out of touch with themselves. It really is a miserable state to be in -- to be so out of touch with a fundamental part of the self.

So, everyone who does not run a Child Avi or dislikes Child Avis in an adult triple x environment is in a miserable state? Are you SERIOUS?

[Theresa Ravenheart]

9 minutes ago, SpiritSparrow Skydancer said:

I do not think anyone is trashing child avatars.  I think they are adorable. 
 

 I do have an issue that there are sick freaks who find pleasure in virtually molesting child avatars. 
 

assuming that this is being put into place because of a recent blog post that shall not be named! 
 

 

I find this phrase so (not really funny) but funny, "virtually molesting child avatars". They are not being molested, the kid avatars that are participating in these activities are choosing to do so because they are ALSO adults. No one is forcing them into these sick situations, unlike what happens in RL to actual CHILD VICTIMS. No one can be physically victimized in SL unless they want to, be because we are all are fully in control of our experiences, because we can block. mute, teleport away, or log off the second we are uncomfortable. This is not about the "poor helpless kids", the people involved with the age***y scene are not victims tricked into it, they are seeking it out. 

As a survivor of CSA, I find this insulting and ridiculous! 

Edited May 7 by Theresa Ravenheart

[brodiac90]

1 minute ago, SpiritSparrow Skydancer said:

Ok, I can understand that 

I forgot to mention. Chest wise it is yet to be seen whether boys will need a modesty layer as well. I only mention that because pretty much all child avatars are built around the much smaller female body. The way kid avatars my age (9) differentiate themselves is throguh things like names, clothing, shapes, hair and makeup etc. So in reality it would be very hard to have 1 type of modesty layers for boys and another for girls on the same avatar. 

[SpiritSparrow Skydancer]

1 minute ago, Theresa Ravenheart said:

I find this phrase so (not really funny) but funny, "virtually molesting child avatars". They are not being molested, the kid avatars that are participating in these activities are choosing to do so because they are ALSO adults. No one is forcing them into these sick situations, unlike what happens in RL to actual CHILD VICTIMS. No one can be physically victimized in SL unless they want to, be because we are all are fully in control of our experiences, because we can block. mute or log off the second we are uncomfortable. This is not about the "poor helpless kids", the people involved with the age***y scene are not victims tricked into it, they are seeking it out. 

Ok I’ll take your point you seem to know a lot about it……. Anyway! 
 

[Coffee Pancake]

2 minutes ago, SpiritSparrow Skydancer said:

I do not think anyone is trashing child avatars.  I think they are adorable. 

A good half of this thread is dedicated to attacking child avatars, presumptions of guilt and illegal behavior, poorly veiled personal attacks, demanding they all be banned or locked to G regions.

Child avatars are the easiest group in SL to hate on and conjurer up straw-men to demean and attack them.

This is going to end up costing LL a lot of active and valuable SL users, and not for the new rules (that they support!!), but for the social fall out and leaving them feeling broadly unwelcome.

It's not fun. It's supposed to be fun.

[Arielle Popstar]

1 minute ago, Vivienne Schell said:

So, everyone who does not run a Child Avi or dislikes Child Avis in an adult triple x environment is in a miserable state? Are you SERIOUS?

If one is expending emotional energy hating on child avatars or any particular avatars style for that matter, one is having a problem. One can block and derender so they should use it rather than wasting emotional energy on hate.

[SpiritSparrow Skydancer]

2 minutes ago, brodiac90 said:

I forgot to mention. Chest wise it is yet to be seen whether boys will need a modesty layer as well. I only mention that because pretty much all child avatars are built around the much smaller female body. The way kid avatars my age (9) differentiate themselves is throguh things like names, clothing, shapes, hair and makeup etc. So in reality it would be very hard to have 1 type of modesty layers for boys and another for girls on the same avatar. 

Probably little tank tops, which might be an issue for swim suits. I think nipples should be allowed… but idk that’s up to LL I suppose. 

[Theresa Ravenheart]

33 minutes ago, SpiritSparrow Skydancer said:

Ok I’ll take your point you seem to know a lot about it……. Anyway! 
 

In my 20 years in SL, no one has never earned a block so fast. Anyways...

Nice job missing the point, I was a kid avatar for a few years in SL. Never once did an adult avatar ever approach me for nefarious activities, yet other kid avatars did, and were insta-blocked and AR'd. Also as an adult in SL, my policy now is to block kid avatars on site, wanna know why? Cause I have had them approach me for nefarious activities, and again, I block and report, To save myself the headache, they all just get blocked now so I don't have to deal with it. And I'm not saying all kid avatars do this, or are bad, or don't deserve a safe place in SL because I think they do and I know there are some great kid avatars, but it really pisses me off when people treat them like that are innocent kids on the forums, they are grown adults.

Edited May 7 by Theresa Ravenheart

[Vivienne Schell]

3 minutes ago, Arielle Popstar said:

If one is expending emotional energy hating on child avatars or any particular avatars style for that matter, one is having a problem. One can block and derender so they should use it rather than wasting emotional energy on hate.

OK, so Linden Lab banned Child Avatars from A rated sims. There must be a lot of hate at Linden Lab, right? They could have blocked and derendered them....

[brodiac90]

4 minutes ago, Theresa Ravenheart said:

I find this phrase so (not really funny) but funny, "virtually molesting child avatars". They are not being molested, the kid avatars that are participating in these activities are choosing to do so because they are ALSO adults. No one is forcing them into these sick situations, unlike what happens in RL to actual CHILD VICTIMS. No one can be physically victimized in SL unless they want to, be because we are all are fully in control of our experiences, because we can block. mute, teleport away, or log off the second we are uncomfortable. This is not about the "poor helpless kids", the people involved with the age***y scene are not victims tricked into it, they are seeking it out. 

As a survivor of CSA, I find this insulting and ridiculous! 

In those circumstances, no, I fully agree. Trust me, no one hates those bad kid avatars more than genuine kid avatars who want nothing to do with that stuff. I gurantee it. 

However, to say that kid avatars can never be victimised in SL is not true. I know it's not true because I have experienced it. I posted about it earlier. For context, my avatar is a 9 year old boy, I was fully clothed at the time, alphas and everything and I was on a G sim in a public shopping mall aimed at kids. I can still remember very vividly to this day even years later their avatar and how they approached me. Next came the IMs and suggestive talk about the sort of things they wanted to do to me. I obviously AR'ed them straight away and thankfully never saw them again, so having experienced something so sickening please don't tell me that things like that don't happen.  

[Arielle Popstar]

Just now, Vivienne Schell said:

OK, so Linden Lab banned Child Avatars from A rated sims. There must be a lot of hate at Linden Lab, right? They could have blocked and derendered them....

In a previous post I pointed out that possibly this has all gone down not for legal reasons, though they can be justified perhaps, but to hide younger avatars from certain people who have a temptation towards them. I compared it to the alcoholic hiding the booze in an attempt to quit though that never or rarely works.

[Dorientje Woller]

7 minutes ago, Theresa Ravenheart said:

I find this phrase so (not really funny) but funny, "virtually molesting child avatars". They are not being molested, the kid avatars that are participating in these activities are choosing to do so because they are ALSO adults. No one is forcing them into these sick situations, unlike what happens in RL to actual CHILD VICTIMS. No one can be physically victimized in SL unless they want to, be because we are all are fully in control of our experiences, because we can block. mute, teleport away, or log off the second we are uncomfortable. This is not about the "poor helpless kids", the people involved with the age***y scene are not victims tricked into it, they are seeking it out. 

As a survivor of CSA, I find this insulting and ridiculous! 

I explained on page 158 how my country sees age of consent in different age caterogies amongst teens, even if both have given their consent. Post have been hiden for a while till it got its approval from a mod, because I tend to call a cow a cow.

[Kathlen Onyx]

To dismiss a group of people that have been wearing and BOUGHT skins for years along with clothing and accessories is ridiculous.

Imagine if all of a sudden LL said you can't use the Maitreya or Lara X body anymore. I guarantee you that thread would have  200 pages in a day,  not over a four day period of time.

Ok so they are trying to prevent pervs from being able to strip down to a naked body. I do get it BUT there has got to be a better solution out there for that. I'll admit I do not know what it is but it's not what they have proposed. A simple BOM layer doesn't work as the pervs can still take it off.  Yes there are SO many ways to get around it but I'm not going to spell it all out here.

This would be the only change that I have a problem with because it involves real money people have spent.

Believe it or not I do have a child avatar that I sometimes took out to interact. I haven't spent A LOT of money on it but it is a Zooby avatar so the whole account needs to now be trashed as that was the only body I had on that account.  I am a bit sad that I no longer can use her because she used to be fun to go to a G or PG club once in awhile and RP her. Normally I would also log in my adult avatar and run them both. I never actually interacted with any avatars on that avatar except in local chat.

The other changes I think are needed but this modesty panel? wooo wheee, they have to rethink that one.

I do not have the solution. I hope LL comes up with a better one that they have proposed.

The only thing I have come up with, and I admit it's not a great idea by any means,  is if you want to play a child avatar then you purchase a subscription similar to PLUS that allows you to have a child avatar.  Make it so you need to use a payment method that links back to your real life, not a throw away gift card or anything like that. Perhaps a debit from your Bank account.  I doubt many ***players will be willing to do that but if they are and get caught at least there are RL legal ramifications that can be taken.

When it involves Real life money I believe LL has a responsibility to come up with a solution that drastically limits the loss of inventory that the RL adult purchased at a time when it was legal to purchase said items.

 

[Denim Robonaught]

All things can be seen from a wrong position doesn't mean that they are.

Giving my kid a bad. Running after them because they don't want to get dressed. Having to take off your shirt because one of them just dropped a bowl of oatmeal on it. Going skinny dipping while one of your kids is in the cabin of your sailboat. and no, they never had any bits. I think we all know where that line is you don't cross, or cross willingly.

Edited May 7 by Denim Robonaught
Spelling

[brodiac90]

2 minutes ago, Kathlen Onyx said:

To dismiss a group of people that have been wearing and BOUGHT skins for years along with clothing and accessories is ridiculous.

Imagine if all of a sudden LL said you can't use the Maitreya or Lara X body anymore. I guarantee you that thread would have  200 pages in a day,  not over a four day period of time.

Ok so they are trying to prevent pervs from being able to strip down to a naked body. I do get it BUT there has got to be a better solution out there for that. I'll admit I do not know what it is but it's not what they have proposed. A simple BOM layer doesn't work as the pervs can still take it off.  Yes there are SO many ways to get around it but I'm not going to spell it all out here.

This would be the only change that I have a problem with because it involves real money people have spent.

Believe it or not I do have a child avatar that I sometimes took out to interact. I haven't spent A LOT of money on it but it is a Zooby avatar so the whole account needs to now be trashed as that was the only body I had on that account.  I am a bit sad that I no longer can use her because she used to be fun to go to a G or PG club once in awhile and RP her. Normally I would also log in my adult avatar and run them both. I never actually interacted with any avatars on that avatar except in local chat.

The other changes I think are needed but this modesty panel? wooo wheee, they have to rethink that one.

I do not have the solution. I hope LL comes up with a better one that they have proposed.

The only thing I have come up with, and I admit it's not a great idea by any means,  is if you want to play a child avatar then you purchase a subscription similar to PLUS that allows you to have a child avatar.  Make it so you need to use a payment method that links back to your real life, not a throw away gift card or anything like that. Perhaps a debit from your Bank account.  I doubt many ***players will be willing to do that but if they are and get caught at least there are RL legal ramifications that can be taken.

When it involves Real life money I believe LL has a responsibility to come up with a solution that drastically limits the loss of inventory that the RL adult purchased at a time when it was legal to purchase said items.

 

I honestly think this is all very reasoanble. Someone earlier mentioned accounts specifically designated as child avatar accounts. I wouldn't be opposed to those if it meant transfering my current account to that status, less so if it meant starting all over again. LL could make a child avatar with all the built in protections, but as I've said previously, I think they're reluctant to do that because the optics would be terrible if something were to happen with a body they had made and endorsed as safe.