So what changed in the Terms of Service?

[MissSweetViolet]

8 minutes ago, Cinnamon Mistwood said:

Maybe for temporary use, LL could release new senra skins for their mesh bodies that comply with the TOS. Then release 2 more body sizes to represent toddler and child type bodies with skins that have undies.  The adult senra bodies they have now can be used for 13-17.  They just need a skin with modesty coverage. They gave every other creater a couple months to make all new stuff, so they should be able to make stuff that fast, as well.  Right?

If child avatars use their current heads, they will still look like themselves until "real creators"  get a chance to catch up to the surprise change to the TOS.

(/me ducks and runs watching the skies for a lightning bolt knowing that some Linden or Mole created that Senra head and released it as acceptable.)

It won't replace all the clothes people bought for their current child bodies, but it would be temporary and fulfill the requirements of the new TOS long enough for the real creators to catch up with new skins so you can get back to your wardrobe as soon as possible.

If LL makes a modesty skin for a Senra can it be put on other bodies?  That might help with the transition, too.

This would be great, since it would hopefully confirm that a skin is okay and not the built in body mesh their wording in spots makes me fear is required.

As for Senra skins working on bodies. It should. TD heads have an SLUV option. AK does not, but with a neck blend close in tone, it should be able to work.

Edited May 6 by MissSweetViolet
Spelling corrections.

[Sammy Huntsman]

50 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

Why would this not translate to SL at all?  For me it seems logical that it would...

Well for starters the foot or the meter is not 1:1 to RL.

[Sammy Huntsman]

53 minutes ago, Kathlen Onyx said:

Well SL isn't real life and our avatars don't look like adult avatars if we model them around this criteria.  So, while it may be true in RL it doesn't translate to SL at all.

Not sure why people aren't getting that.

Okay so as to clear things up. What are your standards for an adult avatar? 

[Dark Zebendein]

I'm 5'4 and have a beard in real life. According to LL TOS that now makes me a child. This is bigotry plain and simple. I'm not allowed to be F----ing short? Like come on? I'm being ejected from any A rated sim and my avatar is "checks" -- Dark Zebendein is 1.903 m (6 ft. 2 in.) tall (including shoes).  and that's considered a child according to Linden Labs own height check. This is completely absurd and I wonder if legal action can be taken for discrimination based on height.

 

You know. I've always been pretty ok with being short I pass off most people treating me badly because of it as them being "smaller" but this is unacceptable.

Explain to me how this is a child avatar LL.

 

 

Edited May 6 by Dark Zebendein

[Sammy Huntsman]

3 minutes ago, Dark Zebendein said:

I'm 5'4 and have a beard in real life. According to LL TOS that now makes me a child. This is bigotry plain and simple. I'm not allowed to be F----ing short? Like come on? I'm being ejected from any A rated sim and my avatar is "checks" -- Dark Zebendein is 1.903 m (6 ft. 2 in.) tall (including shoes).  and that's considered a child according to Linden Labs own height check. This is completely absurd and I wonder if legal action can be taken for discrimination based on height.

 

You know. I've always been pretty ok with being short I pass off most people treating me badly because of it as them being "smaller" but this is unacceptable.

Explain to me how this is a child avatar LL.

 

 

You really need to read the FAQ bud, height does not constitute being a child. 

[Dark Zebendein]

1 minute ago, Sammy Huntsman said:

You really need to read the FAQ bud, height does not constitute being a child. 

Since the new TOS I get this in almost every Adult region --

Your avatar is deemed too short to be in this establishment, please change your avatar and you may return. We only accept Human ADULT avatars.

They're terrified of violating TOS.

[Sammy Huntsman]

I am 5'9" in SL and I know for a fact that SL to RL height is not 1 to 1. Also totally do not look like a child. I think I am well put together, if you ask me. Lol. I mean I do look youngish, but I mean I don't look 34, let alone 18 IRL. Lol 

 

https://gyazo.com/ded47eab965f67dfe7bb205e8bce7474
 

[Starberry Passion]

7 minutes ago, Fluffy Sharkfin said:

Unfortunately at the current time I have to agree that we are all in the dark and have nothing but conjecture, which is why having this circular discussion where we all voice our opinions on what does and doesn't look like an adult in our eyes is entirely pointless since it's not our eyes that will be making the final determination.

I'll admit that, as someone who's been using realistically sized adult avatars for almost 20 years, I am being overly defensive and I apologise to @Kathlen Onyx for being so confrontational in my response but I really don't think that we should all be forced to conform to some arbitrary standard based on the common perception of what an SL adult avatar looks like because that standard is already so broken it's laughable.

LL are, unfortunately for them I suspect, going to have to provide some clear definitions to go along with these new rules, if not it's just going to be chaos.

True, we are in the dark about certain things but with that said, They can keep threatening me all they want, I've been around adult sims as an adult for a long time, no one has said a thing to me, save for a few rare times when I've met an amazon with a massive chest and a table butt telling me I'm too short because they are 7'8" and I come up to their crotch. Like seriously? No wonder I come up to your crotch, you're a giant. Duh... It's unfair that I have to meet someone else's standards to be comfortable where I am.

 

[Fluffy Sharkfin]

2 minutes ago, Dark Zebendein said:

I'm 5'4 and have a beard in real life. According to LL TOS that now makes me a child. This is bigotry plain and simple. I'm not allowed to be F----ing short? Like come on? I'm being ejected from any A rated sim and my avatar is "checks" -- Dark Zebendein is 1.903 m (6 ft. 2 in.) tall (including shoes).  and that's considered a child according to Linden Labs own height check. This is completely absurd and I wonder if legal action can be taken for discrimination based on height.

 

You know. I've always been pretty ok with being short I pass off most people treating me badly because of it as them being "smaller" but this is unacceptable.

OKay, just take a second and breathe...

There's nothing in the TOS that states you're a child because of your height and there no bigotry (plain and simple or pinstriped and complex).

Getting kicked from a sim sucks but that's the act of the sim owner/management or some random script, the Lindens didn't eject you.

As for legal action, I highly doubt it but that's okay because what you think is happening isn't really happening.

It's okay to be short, trust me I've been at it for a while and yes some people can be real jerks about it, but that's just some people.

In short, it would be unacceptable if it were happening, but it's not so it's okay, trust me!  

[Rolig Loon]

6 minutes ago, Dark Zebendein said:

I'm 5'4 and have a beard in real life. According to LL TOS that now makes me a child. This is bigotry plain and simple. I'm not allowed to be F----ing short? Like come on? I'm being ejected from any A rated sim and my avatar is "checks" -- Dark Zebendein is 1.903 m (6 ft. 2 in.) tall (including shoes).  and that's considered a child according to Linden Labs own height check. This is completely absurd and I wonder if legal action can be taken for discrimination based on height.

 

You know. I've always been pretty ok with being short I pass off most people treating me badly because of it as them being "smaller" but this is unacceptable.

From the FAQ:

Q: Does the height or gender of my avatar define it as a child avatar?

A: No. We review many factors from an Abuse Report to come to a final conclusion, and height or gender alone are not grounds for Governance action.

Q: How do you define a child avatar?

A: We are relying on the community to use their best judgment to determine if they are using a child avatar or not. Creating a list of specifications for something like this can be a slippery slope, and we certainly don’t want to give out directions on how to circumvent any policies. If a reasonable person would look at the features of your avatar and consider it underage, we would recommend not engaging in adult activities on that account. Apart from considering the avatar's appearance, the team considers various other factors, such as the purpose for which the avatar is being used.

As mentioned in other Q&As, general physical characteristics that apply to adults as well as children such as avatar height, being of slim or petite build, gender identity (such as non-binary or gender non-conforming), or ethnicity are not sole or intrinsic qualities that might qualify an avatar as a child avatar.

[Sammy Huntsman]

1 minute ago, Dark Zebendein said:

Since the new TOS I get this in almost every Adult region --

Your avatar is deemed too short to be in this establishment, please change your avatar and you may return. We only accept Human ADULT avatars.

They're terrified of violating TOS.

Um can you take a screenshot to prove that? And again, that is the region owner that is putting that restriction on. Not LL. 

[Starberry Passion]

3 minutes ago, Sammy Huntsman said:

You really need to read the FAQ bud, height does not constitute being a child. 

No, this is not about the faq, some stores made a height thing that ejects people that are shorter than what the ruler says, automatically.

[Sammy Huntsman]

Just now, Starberry Passion said:

No, this is not about the faq, some stores made a height thing that ejects people that are shorter than what the ruler says, automatically.

I mean that is entirely up to the owner of the region. 

[Starberry Passion]

1 minute ago, Sammy Huntsman said:

I mean that is entirely up to the owner of the region. 

Oh okay.

[Rolig Loon]

3 minutes ago, Dark Zebendein said:

Since the new TOS I get this in almost every Adult region --

Your avatar is deemed too short to be in this establishment, please change your avatar and you may return. We only accept Human ADULT avatars.

They're terrified of violating TOS.

They need to get a life and read the TOS.  HOWEVER:  Any region owner can decide to allow or reject anybody he wants, for any reason, whether it makes sense or not.  The region owner can toss you because he doesn't like the color of your beard or because you have a flower on your shirt, or just because he feels like it.

[Fluffy Sharkfin]

1 minute ago, Starberry Passion said:

No, this is not about the faq, some stores made a height thing that ejects people that are shorter than what the ruler says, automatically.

Oh folks have been doing that for ages, it can be really annoying!

I'm not sure if it's still on the marketplace but someone once made a pair of boots with a stack of books strapped to the bottom as a jokey way to get around height detectors, I don't know if it even worked since I never tried it but it looked really cute and funny at least! 🤣

[Sammy Huntsman]

Just now, Starberry Passion said:

Oh okay.

I wasn't arguing with you, nor attacking you. I am sorry if it came off that way. I was just saying that region owners can determine who can or cannot enter their region. 

[Luna Bliss]

Just now, Rolig Loon said:

They need to get a life and read the TOS.  HOWEVER:  Any region owner can decide to allow or reject anybody he wants, for any reason, whether it makes sense or not.  The region owner can toss you because he doesn't like the color of your beard or because you have a flower on your shirt, or just because he feels like it.

But LL has a duty to minimize this problem through proper definitions and education. This is the point.

[Starberry Passion]

Just now, Sammy Huntsman said:

I wasn't arguing with you, nor attacking you. I am sorry if it came off that way. I was just saying that region owners can determine who can or cannot enter their region. 

Huh? I wasn't upset or thinking you were attacking me, was just saying what was happening to him because I thought you thought it was something else.

[Kathlen Onyx]

10 minutes ago, Sammy Huntsman said:

Okay so as to clear things up. What are your standards for an adult avatar? 

It doesn't matter what MY standards are. It only matters what LL standards are. I think unless they actually TELL us no one will know.

Perhaps they are being ambiguous on purpose but I don't see a reason to be. In fact, I see that there is a need for exact criteria as to what is and isn't considered a child avatar.  Telling the community to use their best judgement on something that could possibly get them permanently banned is inexcusable and irresponsible of LL.

They haven't even put a picture up of what the modesty panels SHOULD look like. We are all guessing.

[Sammy Huntsman]

2 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

But LL has a duty to minimize this problem through proper definitions and education. This is the point.

I mean you really can't stop region owners choosing who they will or will not allow in their regions. 

[Flower Caerndow]

Has anyone considered that the reason sim owners use a script to kick out short avatars is because they cannot be there 24/7 to try to keep out underage appearing avatars?  Until there is another way to determine if an avatar  has a childlike appearance without needing constant in person monitoring that will be the method used.  

Isn't it enough that an owner of a region has to pay $109-209 USD each month as tier in order to allow people to use it?  If they need to also pay someone to be there all the time to monitor and make sure no TOS violations occur then expect more sims to be closing.

You may wish to blame this on LL and their rules, but isn't it caused by people who try to use childlike avatars in adult regions?

Edited May 6 by Flower Caerndow
added more

[Luna Bliss]

2 minutes ago, Sammy Huntsman said:

5 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

But LL has a duty to minimize this problem through proper definitions and education. This is the point.

I mean you really can't stop region owners choosing who they will or will not allow in their regions. 

True that.

But if LL creates a problem that diminishes the quality of so many users experiences they need to make an effort to remedy it through proper definitions and education.

Imagine if child avatars could hardly go anywhere due to freaked out region owners.

Edited May 6 by Luna Bliss

[Sammy Huntsman]

Just now, Luna Bliss said:

True that.

But if LL creates a problem that diminishes the quality of so many users experiences they need to make an effort to remedy it.

Imagine if child avatars could hardly go anywhere due to freaked out region owners.

I mean regions are like our actual homes. We can choose who goes in and who doesn't go in. And again that is totally fine, as I said before. That is entirely up to the region owner. 

[Fluffy Sharkfin]

1 minute ago, Flower Caerndow said:

Has anyone considered that the reason sim owners use a script to kick out short avatars is because they cannot be there 24/7 to try to keep out underage appearing avatars?  Until there is another way to determine if an avatar  has a childlike appearance without needing constant in person monitoring that will be the method used.  

Isn't it enough that an owner of a region has to pay $109-209 USD each month as tier in order to allow people to use it?  If they need to also pay someone to be there all the time to monitor and make sure no TOS violations occur then expect more sims to be closing.

Under the new TOS any child avatar teleporting to a region that they shouldn't be in can be AR'd and will face serious repercussions, and I'm sure any actions they take or their proximity to any residents who are legitimately there will be considered entirely the responsibility of the party breaking TOS rather than those complying with it.