The real secret of Second Life

[HeathcliffMontague]

1 hour ago, Wulfie Reanimator said:

That sounds pretty limited to me.

Engaging in a team or conversing with people doesn't really factor into what a game is, but if you mostly play shooters or competitive games then I can totally understand the disconnect.

There are lots of games just like SL out there like I mentioned, and they've been there since the 90s in different forms (especially MUDs like Furcadia).

Fair enough. Thanks for the response. Like I said, I'm not a "gamer" as such even though I have, nerdly enough, been involved in group assaults on various battlefieds

That's what a game means to me, at least, and SL is just so far from it.

[Bubblesort Triskaidekaphobia]

11 hours ago, Bree Giffen said:

I guess we have nothing to worry about fellow residents. Second Life is not a video game.

LOL, every time I see this I remember adults telling me "Life isn't a game, young man!"  Usually, they said that kind of thing when I was being a moody, teenage jerk.  Eventually, I read some Camus, and could fire back with "Life is a game we play without ever knowing the rules."

I remember years ago, there was a guy in my area who committed suicide over game addiction.  He was so deep in Everquest, he lost everything.  Very sad situation, he was in his early 30s, IIRC.  You couldn't help but feel for the guy.  His mother went all extremist over it, though, and became an anti-game addiction activist.  It's sad what happened to her son, but she was a bit of a joke, among the gamers in the area that I knew.  She even opened a halfway house for game addiction.  She was featured in one of those game addiction documentaries.  Last I heard, a couple of people who were about to become homeless for unrelated reasons convinced her they were game addicts, to stay at her halfway house for a bit, but her religious kookery was so extreme they only lasted a few weeks.  I haven't heard anything new about her for like 15 years, so I hope she came to peace with what happened to her son, and gave up on her Quixotic crusade against playing games.

[Love Zhaoying]

5 hours ago, Garnet Psaltery said:

What is the topic?  That SL is addictive?

Apparently, dangerously so!  

I am not sure why that is a "secret", most old-timers already know it is addictive "for some people".

There have been plenty of threads and other discussions about it.

Maybe the Psychology "experts" will chime in.  I'm all ready with some 12-Step basics if they do!

 

[Ayashe Ninetails]

1 hour ago, Wulfie Reanimator said:

That sounds pretty limited to me.

Engaging in a team or conversing with people doesn't really factor into what a game is, but if you mostly play shooters or competitive games then I can totally understand the disconnect.

There are lots of games just like SL out there like I mentioned, and they've been there since the 90s in different forms (especially MUDs like Furcadia).

Oh gosh. I hate this game vs. not-a-game argument so much (nothing against you, Wulfie! Just in general), buuuuuut, perhaps I could chime in with my opinion?

My embarrassingly huge Steam, GOG, Epic, Prime, Game Pass, Itch.io, MMO, NES, and C64 libraries are compelling me to ... agree with you on this. 😆 That said...

Yeah, SL is very, very close to a multiplayer open-world sandbox game in some ways. Minecraft, Roblox, GMod, let's not talk about Everquest Landmark or Next as I'm still mourning that, with WAY better fashion and a much steeper learning curve - especially for content creation. There are, of course, a LOT of differences, but I can't really fault anyone for making the comparison or coming here from some other open-world sandbox and expecting some things to be similar.

I would say it's NOT similar to ones like No Man's Sky or Rust or The Forest or any of those survival/base-building/exploration-focused games, but yeah, closer to the list you provided, sure.

I have seen it compared to The Sims, Animal Crossing, GTA Online, EVE, and Runescape for various reasons (everything from community to roleplay to economy to life simulation), but ehhhh, I wouldn't really put it with those myself. It's its own thing, really, BUT someone calling it a game because of XYZ doesn't seem too far-fetched to me overall.

More on topic, which I guess is game addictions? Uhhh, yeah you could get addicted to some aspects of SL, sure. Shopping, for one. Loads of people blow tons of cash on in-game item shops in all kinds of games. And back when they existed - casinos, for sure. Wouldn't really throw it into the "grinding and raiding 24/7 so hard I'm missing work" category, though.

[Ineffable Mote]

As an ex smoker (last century) I always called that a habit too, pack a day for nearly a decade. And it was a habit, even though it wasn't. Sometimes the word intoxicant fits better than drug. It's all a lot of semantics (with the game vs sandbox argument, as well).

Games/platforms have addicting mechanisms intentionally built in to varying degrees, much like SL does, not just with loot boxes and such but leaving games open-ended I'd think(things like sims and stardew, maximizing the replay value). I'd say this was generally lesser known and understood 25 years ago, while far from unknown, but fbook especially was/is so atrocious that it forced it all out into the open. Industries have this all down to a science, more than just observations.

And with light, that can be helpful and an irritant both, depending on quality and quantity. Where quantities get to be an issue it tends to be more obvious, less so with quality.

More generally speaking, seeing the world through both/and sometimes makes stronger framing than either/or (the world we live in is both binary and not binary? I guess ditto with dualism)

Edited April 25 by Ineffable Mote

[Love Zhaoying]

16 hours ago, Charlemagne Allen said:

This is an actual conversation with a new account. Name is altered for privacy.

[16:58] Charlemagne Allen: how did you hear about SL?
[16:58] sfskfjweoweirweirwep: I saw it on a documentary about video game addiction.

This raises so many questions.

Was the new account user "seeking" addiction? Or just intrigued by the idea?

Who exactly thinks that it is a "secret" that Second Life is "addictive"?  

It is only implied that the new account user's documentary included Second Life because it was "addictive"..the same documentary could have listed lots of "not-addictive" games.

Did the new user find the addiction they were seeking? Which addiction was it? Sex, gambling, shopping..?

 

[Wulfie Reanimator]

46 minutes ago, Ayashe Ninetails said:

Oh gosh. I hate this game vs. not-a-game argument so much (nothing against you, Wulfie! Just in general)

100% same, to be fair! I didn't start it!

[Kathlen Onyx]

3 hours ago, Luna Bliss said:

Yes I think it's only addictive if it's affecting one's life adversely....otherwise it's what's known as a 'habit'.

You can be addicted to alcohol and still l have it not affect your life.  There are plenty of full functioning alcoholics.

A habit is a series of things you do all the time. i.e. put your keys in the same place, always order 2% milk, put your socks on the left foot first and then the right. 

 

As far as SL being considered a game, clearly some people see it as a game and some don't. Why people get so annoyed when people call it a game is beyond me. If you don't see it as a game then so be it.  What does anyone care what another person calls it? It's the same way when people say SL is not a dating site. Again, I know people that have been in SL with the express interest of finding someone to spend their RL with and they have been successful. To them, SL is a dating site.  

Edited April 25 by Kathlen Onyx

[Ayashe Ninetails]

12 minutes ago, Wulfie Reanimator said:

100% same, to be fair! I didn't start it!

LMAO, I know, no worries! It's an age-old debate from the very beginning of tiiiiime!

[Love Zhaoying]

9 minutes ago, Kathlen Onyx said:

You can be addicted to alcohol and still l have it not affect your life.  There are plenty of full functioning alcoholics.

I know, right? I was a fully-functioning alcoholic, and did just fine for years: held down the same job, maintained my lifestyle, etc. and only stopped for health reasons.  But someone in this thread recently said, "every addict they knew was miserable". 

LOL!

(Hint: Don't go to THEM for psychological advice!)

 

[Persephone Emerald]

4 hours ago, Luna Bliss said:

I'm thinking of 'fake' as not inhabiting one's avatar to a degree of depth -- not coming "from the heart". Just staying on the surface is what feels 'fake' for me, as opposed to considering fake as 'the intent to deceive'. Regarding someone who deceives with an alt (thinking of a friend being stalked by an alt, and at times I am also stalked via being this person's friend and so targeted), this alt who stalks is very much connecting to the core of themselves in a deeper way (they have a need to bother another or 'get even' in their mind). Likewise with a sock puppet, though deceiving others using an alt they appear to be overwhelmed and have a need to give the support to themselves they're unable to give with their main account. So again, their deceptive account does not seem 'fake'.

Of course we can't, as outsiders, determine when someone is inhabiting themselves or alts in a more superficial manner and not "coming from the heart", and there's no easily determined line to measure such a thing anyway. And the case could even be made that relating to the world superficially is also genuine as not all encounters with the world are, or need to be, deeper ones. But for me, 'fake' means skimming the surface, as one is not participating in the reality of a complex/depth world. Reality is complex, and so not relating to reality with a degree of complexity seems 'fake' to me.

This is certainly an interesting perspective on what makes someone "fake" or not.

If a troll or griefer is sincerely upset or sincerely needs self-validation, then does this mean that even if they use an alt account to irritate others, they're actually being "real" rather than "fake"?

[Persephone Emerald]

20 minutes ago, Love Zhaoying said:

I know, right? I was a fully-functioning alcoholic, and did just fine for years: held down the same job, maintained my lifestyle, etc. and only stopped for health reasons.  But someone in this thread recently said, "every addict they knew was miserable". 

LOL!

(Hint: Don't go to THEM for psychological advice!)

Maybe they were miserable because they knew that person?

[Love Zhaoying]

7 minutes ago, Persephone Emerald said:

This is certainly an interesting perspective on what makes someone "fake" or not.

If a troll or griefer is sincerely upset or sincerely needs self-validation, then does this mean that even if they use an alt account to irritate others, they're actually being "real" rather than "fake"?

You are brave!

[Persephone Emerald]

Just now, Love Zhaoying said:

You are brave!

It is sometimes difficult to distinguish bravery from stupidity. 

[Ineffable Mote]

Habits could probably be qualified as games too...the mention of Camus above reminded me of Berne's Games People Play (more psychology writings, and a little knowledge is a dangerous thing etc)

Edited April 25 by Ineffable Mote

[Luna Bliss]

1 hour ago, Persephone Emerald said:

5 hours ago, Luna Bliss said:

I'm thinking of 'fake' as not inhabiting one's avatar to a degree of depth -- not coming "from the heart". Just staying on the surface is what feels 'fake' for me, as opposed to considering fake as 'the intent to deceive'. Regarding someone who deceives with an alt (thinking of a friend being stalked by an alt, and at times I am also stalked via being this person's friend and so targeted), this alt who stalks is very much connecting to the core of themselves in a deeper way (they have a need to bother another or 'get even' in their mind). Likewise with a sock puppet, though deceiving others using an alt they appear to be overwhelmed and have a need to give the support to themselves they're unable to give with their main account. So again, their deceptive account does not seem 'fake'.

Of course we can't, as outsiders, determine when someone is inhabiting themselves or alts in a more superficial manner and not "coming from the heart", and there's no easily determined line to measure such a thing anyway. And the case could even be made that relating to the world superficially is also genuine as not all encounters with the world are, or need to be, deeper ones. But for me, 'fake' means skimming the surface, as one is not participating in the reality of a complex/depth world. Reality is complex, and so not relating to reality with a degree of complexity seems 'fake' to me.

Expand  

This is certainly an interesting perspective on what makes someone "fake" or not.

If a troll or griefer is sincerely upset or sincerely needs self-validation, then does this mean that even if they use an alt account to irritate others, they're actually being "real" rather than "fake"?

Yes, it would mean they're expressing an authentic part of their self in that period of their life (a need to bother others) no matter what account they use to express it.

[Love Zhaoying]

Second Life is "all RolePlay" for some people. For them, hopefully the addiction is "fake" too.

[Luna Bliss]

5 hours ago, Arielle Popstar said:

6 hours ago, Luna Bliss said:

Yes I think it's only addictive if it's affecting one's life adversely....otherwise it's what's known as a 'habit'.

Can call it just a habit while still partaking in it. One only starts to realize its addictiveness when stopping for a while and realizes the emotional withdrawals that come up as a result, especially if one hasn't substituted with a similar virtual world.

Just skimming the literature and current take by specialists in this area it appears addiction denotes a more serious phase of habitual behavior,  and the subconscious mind, as well as biological factors (like dopamine), come more into play when labeling a behavior as an addiction (as opposed to the behavior being classified as a 'habit').

[Arielle Popstar]

2 hours ago, Kathlen Onyx said:

You can be addicted to alcohol and still l have it not affect your life.  There are plenty of full functioning alcoholics.

Heavy drinkers maybe that might look like an alcoholic but given sufficient reason to quit, can do so with little to no trouble. An actual alcoholic in the truest sense of the word, is mentally obsessed and physically addicted to alcohol. When they quit they often go through withdrawal symptoms like delirium tremens (DT's) anxiety, shaky hands, headache, nausea, vomiting, insomnia, sweating and other fun symptoms.

They tend to only think they are functional because they went to work every day and could afford their booze but certainly would be changes how they interact with others.

[Luna Bliss]

2 hours ago, Love Zhaoying said:

2 hours ago, Kathlen Onyx said:

You can be addicted to alcohol and still l have it not affect your life.  There are plenty of full functioning alcoholics.

I know, right? I was a fully-functioning alcoholic, and did just fine for years: held down the same job, maintained my lifestyle, etc. and only stopped for health reasons.  But someone in this thread recently said, "every addict they knew was miserable". 

LOL!

(Hint: Don't go to THEM for psychological advice!)

Often high-functioning addicts do well at work, but when they come home they fall apart. Alcoholics have to drink at some point, right?  So that would be after work when with family and friends, and drinking causes dysfunction in reasoning so relationships are usually problematic, causing unhappiness.

[Luna Bliss]

2 minutes ago, Arielle Popstar said:

They tend to only think they are functional because they went to work every day and could afford their booze but certainly would be changes how they interact with others.

Yes.

[Kathlen Onyx]

15 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

Often high-functioning addicts do well at work, but when they come home they fall apart. Alcoholics have to drink at some point, right?  So that would be after work when with family and friends, and drinking causes dysfunction in reasoning so relationships are usually problematic, causing unhappiness.

Please stop trying to pretend you understand how alcoholics and addiction works. It's embarrassing.

[Luna Bliss]

11 minutes ago, Kathlen Onyx said:

27 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

Often high-functioning addicts do well at work, but when they come home they fall apart. Alcoholics have to drink at some point, right?  So that would be after work when with family and friends, and drinking causes dysfunction in reasoning so relationships are usually problematic, causing unhappiness.

Please stop trying to pretend you understand how alcoholics and addiction works. It's embarrassing.

From WebMD:

"A “functional alcoholic” may seem to be in control. But they may put themselves or others in danger by drinking and driving, having risky sexual encounters, or blacking out, Benton says.

Heavy drinking has many other risks. It can lead to liver disease, pancreatitis, some forms of cancer, brain damage, serious memory loss, and high blood pressure. It also makes someone more likely to die in a car wreck or from murder or suicide. And any alcohol abuse raises the odds of domestic violence, child abuse and neglect, and fetal alcohol syndrome".

Edited April 25 by Luna Bliss

[Kathlen Onyx]

1 minute ago, Luna Bliss said:

From WebMD:

A “functional alcoholic” may seem to be in control. But they may put themselves or others in danger by drinking and driving, having risky sexual encounters, or blacking out, Benton says.

Heavy drinking has many other risks. It can lead to liver disease, pancreatitis, some forms of cancer, brain damage, serious memory loss, and high blood pressure. It also makes someone more likely to die in a car wreck or from murder or suicide. And any alcohol abuse raises the odds of domestic violence, child abuse and neglect, and fetal alcohol syndrome.

From WebMD? Enough said, lol.

The second part of what you posted has nothing to do with the difference between it being a habit or an addiction. Let's try to stay on topic.

[Luna Bliss]

I knew a guy in SL who was addicted to SL, a sex-addict in SL, and an alcoholic   

I don't encounter many in SL who fit the classification of 'addiction' though, rather their time spent in SL adds to the quality of their life, even if a habit that might be difficult to break unless suitable activities were available to replace it.

Some interesting info about game addiction:

"Video game addiction may have both short and long-term impacts on gamers, including various emotional, psychological, and neurological effects. A few studies have demonstrated that anxiety and depression are common among individuals who are dependent on video games [6,12]. In the new generation of children, physical activity time is less and shorter in duration when compared with the parent's generation because children’s activities moved toward indoor more than outdoor play. There is a negative relationship between the time spent on online gaming and exercise and that leads to a sedentary lifestyle which is a risk factor for many medical health conditions such as obesity, diabetes, and coronary artery disease [13]"

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC10065366/

Edited April 25 by Luna Bliss