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Lara X clothing issue


Kathlen Onyx
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I am finding more and more Lara X clothing that looks awesome when standing or posing yet once you start to move the clothing has major clipping issues that the alphas don't fix.

It used to be that with the major clothing stores that I didn't even have to demo because I knew it would fit and work great.  I could do a quick shop for a theme dance party and off I go.  I've tried that twice now (and learned my lesson) with Lara X outfits that I've demo'ds, yet forgot to do what I normally do and that is dance with the outfit actually on.  These are well known and established stores and it's very disappointing. 

I know nothing about how to rig mesh clothing but I thought that rigging for Lara X was a lot easier and that it a major reason why some stores are dropping Maitreya. 

An example is I bought a really pretty lace top and short pajama set and it looked great. Once I started dancing though it clipped all over the place.  I can't even alpha it because even though is not see through lace it is sheer and you can tell.

I hate shopping. I just want to go get something and have it fit nicely.  A once enjoyable activity of getting an outfit for the day has now turned into  tedious and drawn out process.  

I do think the body does look good with BOM lingerie on it so I will most likely use it for that and use my Maitreya for everyday use.  Fully clothed with the shoulders covered up and you can't really tell a difference anyway.

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My experience is that fully clothed with the shoulders covered up is why I prefer the LaraX to the 5.3. I don't even try to use tops made for 5.3 with my X cause the shoulders to me appear like I am wearing shoulder pads. I much prefer the shape of the shoulders with the X. As for clipping, that's something I've noticed for years on any mesh body I try. Rigging clothes to not clip at all isn't an easy task. 

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Even the very best clothing places will still occasionally have items that for whatever reason slightly clip on Lara and LaraX depending on the AO.

Doesn't matter if it's ISON, ValentinaE, Just Because, mimikri, Addams etc name any of them and I can guarantee I can find an outfit that if I'm dancing might clip during some animation or another. I find it's mostly upper body ... an elbow poking through some dance when your avatar raises her arms up high, back of shoulders for a brief moment during a turn, etc. I just manually alpha that little bit out and carry on.

And the shape of X is so much better than the 5.3 Lara it's worth taking 30 seconds to tweak an alpha.

Edited by Katherine Heartsong
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WTB: A viewer that lets us paint an alpha on any object including our own avatar. Just imagine... any clipping issue could be solved with a small selection of painting tools. The process of making an alpha the normal way is quite annoying, painstaking and not really logical given how the UV map actually fits any body. You can certainly do it and I have but the process is normally lengthy and annoying enough that I only do it for the stuff I really, really like yet has clipping issues.

 

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This is a bigger problem than just a "bit of clipping" and I RARELY ran into it with Maitryeya clothing from popular brands.  Different experiences I guess but clipping all of the top and shorts of a lacy outfit when you move is unacceptable and poor product creation. Especially when there is nothing you can do about it but toss in the garbage.

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Funny you should say that because we were saying it only last night. It applies to a lot of things my wife and I (although being a 'typical' man according to a recent thread here I don't buy clothes often) have demo'd. They come from events and sometimes from stores. It's been going on for a while and seems to be getting much more common over the last year or two.

It's getting silly, the number of demos she tries that are supposedly fitted for LaraX (although it's been happening long before LX even launched) that clip so badly that I'm sure they aren't. Or at best were fitted by a blind chimpanzee.

Needing to use an alpha to hide such bad fitting doesn't mean it is fitted in my opinion. Good stores make clothes that don't need an alpha at all in most animations; at worst they might need the armpits, elbows, shoulder points or crotch hiding for some.

A little clipping in some animations is always expected. That's the way it is. A lot of what we are seeing though is very bad clipping even in simple animations. Some clip in a T pose; some clip as soon as you move out of the T pose; some have the entire buttock area or shoulders/shoulder blades clipping through immediately.

That is not fitted!

Edited by Rick Nightingale
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   Clothing with lace/transparency will often get clipping issues in more 'lively' animations, even when using Lara it was a frequent enough issue that I'd avoid anything that was tight-fitting (but also loose-fitting transparent stuff because of how two transparent faces on top of each other creates strange dark near-solid edges). What I find the most annoying with LaraX and rigging is the pelvis area. Not sure if it's because creators try to follow the shape or if there's something else going on, but some trousers may look fine when T-posed, but the moment your AO has your thigh turn just slightly, it protrudes into a jagged bulge, as if you've got a Big Ben statuette in your knickers. 

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1 hour ago, Orwar said:

   Clothing with lace/transparency will often get clipping issues in more 'lively' animations, even when using Lara it was a frequent enough issue that I'd avoid anything that was tight-fitting (but also loose-fitting transparent stuff because of how two transparent faces on top of each other creates strange dark near-solid edges). What I find the most annoying with LaraX and rigging is the pelvis area. Not sure if it's because creators try to follow the shape or if there's something else going on, but some trousers may look fine when T-posed, but the moment your AO has your thigh turn just slightly, it protrudes into a jagged bulge, as if you've got a Big Ben statuette in your knickers. 

That's odd because I have one skirt that does that and the thing is no other LaraX wearing gal has it. I've even managed to confound the (amazing) creator of said garment since I appear to be the only female affected by this. Not an AO thing either just standing perfectly still or in the T pose. No body mods worn or anything and no exaggerated shape so I agree, the hips are odd perhaps.

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5 hours ago, Rick Nightingale said:

Funny you should say that because we were saying it only last night. It applies to a lot of things my wife and I (although being a 'typical' man according to a recent thread here I don't buy clothes often) have demo'd. They come from events and sometimes from stores. It's been going on for a while and seems to be getting much more common over the last year or two.

It's getting silly, the number of demos she tries that are supposedly fitted for LaraX (although it's been happening long before LX even launched) that clip so badly that I'm sure they aren't. Or at best were fitted by a blind chimpanzee.

Needing to use an alpha to hide such bad fitting doesn't mean it is fitted in my opinion. Good stores make clothes that don't need an alpha at all in most animations; at worst they might need the armpits, elbows, shoulder points or crotch hiding for some.

A little clipping in some animations is always expected. That's the way it is. A lot of what we are seeing though is very bad clipping even in simple animations. Some clip in a T pose; some clip as soon as you move out of the T pose; some have the entire buttock area or shoulders/shoulder blades clipping through immediately.

That is not fitted!

I have been demo'ing LaraX Flat stuff and 75% of it is terrible! like not even close to fitting the chest, almost like they've just taken a LaraX Petite item and awkwardly scaled it in Blender or something... like it would sit 2-3" away from the chest with a giant gap and breast shape still visible.

There's a lot of junk around that's for sure.

Edited by AmeliaJ08
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I've worn Maitreya since its debut. I've always had to alpha something out I wear. I buy from well-known brands, too—pretty much exclusively. I DEMO everything, and I dance in all the DEMOs. Rarely do I find anything that does not need an alpha. I make my own alphas these days if need be if one is not included and carry on. Buying something without doing a DEMO is on the buyer. If I buy something that doesn't need an alpha...well, yay me!

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@Cougar Sangria I don't think we're talking about not demo'ing a product; that's not the issue. And yes, most clothing will need an alpha in some animations. We make our own most of the time and have since BOM started. If you buy only from sellers who do a proper job of skinning the clothes, great. Those need least alpha masking, sometimes none at all even when the maker provides one.

The point is that there is a lot being sold now, from many other sellers, at high prices and at supposedly prestigious events, that is so far away from fitting the body that I don't even consider it to have been fitted for it. My wife tried one just two days ago, the fatpack of which was several thousand L$, and the buttocks clipped out far through the skirt even in an A pose. Another one, the shoulder blades clipped out in simple standing poses and the clothing clearly moved differently to the shoulder blades. No way was that properly weighted to the shoulders. I do some rigging, and skinning on Lara, LaraX and others; I know bad work when I see it and I'm seeing a lot of it.

Edited by Rick Nightingale
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@Rick Nightingale There may be a lot of clothing being sold now with terrible rigging.  If you demo'd it and it was that bad, toss the DEMO in the trash and move along.  The creator lost a sale, maybe many sales.  Maybe they will realize their poor rigging/skinning is the issue and work to fix it, or maybe they don't care.  Either way, they lost a customer,  and word of mouth can be detrimental to a brand.

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19 minutes ago, Cougar Sangria said:

@Rick Nightingale There may be a lot of clothing being sold now with terrible rigging.  If you demo'd it and it was that bad, toss the DEMO in the trash and move along.  The creator lost a sale, maybe many sales.  Maybe they will realize their poor rigging/skinning is the issue and work to fix it, or maybe they don't care.  Either way, they lost a customer,  and word of mouth can be detrimental to a brand.

There are more than a few creators who are well-known and participate in popular events, and yet their items are poorly rigged. One creator I can think of straight away seems unable to rig at all, and relies totally on auto alphas. Poor rigging does not seem to be a barrier to success.

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57 minutes ago, Cougar Sangria said:

@Rick Nightingale There may be a lot of clothing being sold now with terrible rigging.  If you demo'd it and it was that bad, toss the DEMO in the trash and move along.  The creator lost a sale, maybe many sales.  Maybe they will realize their poor rigging/skinning is the issue and work to fix it, or maybe they don't care.  Either way, they lost a customer,  and word of mouth can be detrimental to a brand.

i did demo the outfit and it fit beautifully standing there in a Tpose. I neglected to dance in the item which is totally on me for sure.  If it wasn't a lacey item the alpha's would have been fine but when you alpha lace you always can see you did it. 

I will be more careful from now on. Because this was a very well known and popular brand I trusted it too much I guess.  It was a $499 outfit which isn't chump change for an outfit in SL.  It will go in the trash and I won't write a review because I don't particularly like my name on bad reviews.  This was one of the very few Lara X only items I've bought. I will go back t buying items that have both a Maitreya and a Lara X option as I won't feel as I've wasted as much then.  

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3 minutes ago, Kathlen Onyx said:

i did demo the outfit and it fit beautifully standing there in a Tpose. I neglected to dance in the item which is totally on me for sure.  If it wasn't a lacey item the alpha's would have been fine but when you alpha lace you always can see you did it. 

I will be more careful from now on. Because this was a very well known and popular brand I trusted it too much I guess.  It was a $499 outfit which isn't chump change for an outfit in SL.  It will go in the trash and I won't write a review because I don't particularly like my name on bad reviews.  This was one of the very few Lara X only items I've bought. I will go back t buying items that have both a Maitreya and a Lara X option as I won't feel as I've wasted as much then.  

And have you contacted the creator of that outfit, in order to get a fix for it? To accept a situation is to be complicit of that situation.

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25 minutes ago, Kathlen Onyx said:

i did demo the outfit and it fit beautifully standing there in a Tpose. I neglected to dance in the item which is totally on me for sure.

   I demo stuff with my AO going, I'll only T-pose if I want to look at the textures more closely or play with the materials (wiggling a light source around). Mesh clothes are generally designed on a T-posed model, it's their 'default' look, so being T-posed shows nothing of the actual rigging, just the fitting of the 'base' mesh.

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I usually make sure that when I walk and a lot of my stands that I use, that things don't clip.. But dances I would think there is no way that even the best creator of them all could plan for as many of those that are out there..

Many dances move the bodies in ways they weren't intended in SL.. Especially when mocap came along and they became more realistic movements..  Sometimes the bones get moved outside of their range..

Edited by Ceka Cianci
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On 4/18/2024 at 5:51 AM, Dorientje Woller said:

And have you contacted the creator of that outfit...

While I agree contacting the creator is a good idea, it should not be necessary or put on the buyer to have to or they somehow share the blame.

The maker should be checking things to make sure they are right; it's part of their job and what we are paying for, not ours to have to deal with their 'mistakes' and spend our time investigating the problem, contacting the seller, waiting, trying again, putting up with being told we're wrong and just moaning, jumping though hoops proving the issue, hoping it then gets fixed eventually... and in some cases right now still hoping over a year later... (I'm speaking from a lot of experience doing exactly this, for me and my wife)

In the cases I'm talking about it should absolutely not have been made necessary. The 'fitting' is so bad that any maker worth the name wouldn't release them like that; in what I would perhaps describe as a literally half-finished fitting job at best. They are obviously not ready or fit for sale, at least not with a 'fitted for LaraX' logo on them making the logo meaningless. Contacting such a seller is likely a waste of time, as I have found out repeatedly to the point I no longer bother when it's like that.

Mistakes are a different matter and happen to the best of us at times (even me!), and some sellers (certainly not all) are responsive if contacted. On occasion we've had a mistake corrected within hours or a few days (my own typical turn around for any mistake I make); unfortunately those are rather rare. We certainly remember the sellers in those cases.

Some makers, even supposedly good and respected ones, don't give a hoot as long as most people don't notice a problem too soon and they get enough money in for the product. They've already moved on to the next money-maker. I've been told point-blank by one very well known seller that an error in their mesh (an actual hole in it which was blindingly obvious on the demo from the right direction) wasn't worth their time to fix since not many people had noticed it before buying. Obviously they lost the sale, but they knew they would and clearly didn't care.

 

 

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42 minutes ago, Rick Nightingale said:

While I agree contacting the creator is a good idea, it should not be necessary or put on the buyer to have to or they somehow share the blame.

The maker should be checking things to make sure they are right; it's part of their job and what we are paying for, not ours to have to deal with their 'mistakes' and spend our time investigating the problem, contacting the seller, waiting, trying again, putting up with being told we're wrong and just moaning, jumping though hoops proving the issue, hoping it then gets fixed eventually... and in some cases right now still hoping over a year later... (I'm speaking from a lot of experience doing exactly this, for me and my wife)

In the cases I'm talking about it should absolutely not have been made necessary. The 'fitting' is so bad that any maker worth the name wouldn't release them like that; in what I would perhaps describe as a literally half-finished fitting job at best. They are obviously not ready or fit for sale, at least not with a 'fitted for LaraX' logo on them making the logo meaningless. Contacting such a seller is likely a waste of time, as I have found out repeatedly to the point I no longer bother when it's like that.

Mistakes are a different matter and happen to the best of us at times (even me!), and some sellers (certainly not all) are responsive if contacted. On occasion we've had a mistake corrected within hours or a few days (my own typical turn around for any mistake I make); unfortunately those are rather rare. We certainly remember the sellers in those cases.

Some makers, even supposedly good and respected ones, don't give a hoot as long as most people don't notice a problem too soon and they get enough money in for the product. They've already moved on to the next money-maker. I've been told point-blank by one very well known seller that an error in their mesh (an actual hole in it which was blindingly obvious on the demo from the right direction) wasn't worth their time to fix since not many people had noticed it before buying. Obviously they lost the sale, but they knew they would and clearly didn't care.

 

 

It's honestly ludicrous the stuff you find for sale in SL. I've found items years-old on the Marketplace that have glaring errors, missing sizes, broken rigging etc. and to be fair to the creators 9/10 a message has resulted in them sending me a fixed item but I have always been left wondering just how many they sold in a broken state until someone finally contacted them about it?

Then the clearly untested content, there's a popular event running right now with a prominent creator selling something that simply does not fit a body it is listed as fitting. The size exists in the package, the item certainly is not actually made to fit the body even slightly though. At any one time there's probably many such items being sold, nobody seems to verify and I can only assume the creator knows yet also knows there's no such thing as a money back guarantee in SL.

Of course some will also just flat out ignore contact.

It's the whole "buyer beware" way that SL operates on that causes it. It doesn't even make legal sense, you do have consumer rights even when it comes to digital goods and I honestly cannot work out how this does not apply in SL. There is no such thing as buyer beware - legally speaking - in most of the countries LL operates in.

 

Edited by AmeliaJ08
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9 minutes ago, AmeliaJ08 said:

It's the whole "buyer beware" way that SL operates on that causes it. It doesn't even make legal sense, you do have consumer rights even when it comes to digital goods and I honestly cannot work out how this does not apply in SL. There is no such thing as buyer beware - legally speaking - in most of the countries SL operate in.

That's what demos are for! If you as a consumer do not take the time to adequately demo a product before buying then you suffer the consequences. That's why I demo everything I buy. I demo it so carefully that I nearly always take the product home and demo it for a long period of time. I do this even for products made by my favorite designers. And if a seller doesn't offer a demo, then I don't bother with the product. Honestly, I think consumers are more than adequately equipped to protect their rights. They just oftentimes don't take advantage of the tools they have to be sure they like a product before buying it.

As for complaining that not all the products labeled as fitting LaraX actually fit the body well, I've had that issue for years even with 5.3 clothing. That's why I probably buy no more than 10% of the products I demo. There's a lot of stuff out there I wouldn't take home even if the merchant just gave me the product.

Edited by Blush Bravin
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45 minutes ago, Blush Bravin said:

That's what demos are for!

I disagree.

Demos are to see if we like a product; if it suits our needs; if the skirt matches the top we have; if it fits our 'out of average' shape or works well with our favourite dance animation.

They are not to see if the creator bothered to make the product of suitable quality for sale that matches what they claim. That should be a given; they are charging money for it and making claims about the suitability. We should not have to demo to check the basics and if we miss something while demoing be blamed ourselves for the matter because we didn't spot the problem before buying.

That's the whole attitude that allows this sort of thing to continue.

Yes, the reality is the above is necessary, because so many seller are liars, incompetent, money-grabbing scammers, or just don't really care that much (probably the majority of such). Saying that is what demos are for though immediately puts it on the consumer to be responsible for that when it is not, it is the seller that is responsible.

And yes, we demo everything too; and a high proportion of what we demo is rejected because it is substandard. That's the point of the thread - that so many things are sold making claims that the product does not meet. Not whether or not a buyer demos a product 'sufficiently'.

Edited by Rick Nightingale
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3 minutes ago, Rick Nightingale said:

Yes, the reality is the above is necessary, because so many seller are liars, incompetent, money-grabbing scammers, or just don't really care that much (probably the majority of such). Saying that is what demos are for though immediately puts it on the consumer to be responsible for that when it is not, it is the seller that is responsible.

I think you are forgetting that the vast, VAST, majority of creators in SL are hobbyists. They are typically not professionals. To assume otherwise is folly. You are setting yourself up for frustration. But that's your right. It's certainly not why I spend time in SL.

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6 minutes ago, Blush Bravin said:

I think you are forgetting that the vast, VAST, majority of creators in SL are hobbyists.

I'm a hobbyist. I would not sell items of the poor quality we are seeing; I would be ashamed of myself. If somehow I did, believe me, it would be corrected within days and I would probably give everyone a refund too by way of apology.

Besides, I'm talking about demos that come from established stores and well-known shopping events that are not easy to get a stall at. Those sellers are not merely hobbyists.

Anyway... clearly we have different views and have made them clear so further arguing on that is pointless :)

 

Edited by Rick Nightingale
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23 minutes ago, Blush Bravin said:

I think you are forgetting that the vast, VAST, majority of creators in SL are hobbyists. They are typically not professionals. To assume otherwise is folly. You are setting yourself up for frustration. But that's your right. It's certainly not why I spend time in SL.

That doesn't take away the right/need to be a perfectionist.

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I have seen many a creator start out making rather subpar products, but they typically learn from their mistakes/experiments along the way. Those who don't don't last long. Or they certainly don't make any money doing it. I personally think one of the best things about SL is the ability to start out knowing nothing, but because of a desire to be creative to learn and grow and end up making things you never imagined you could do. 

I've made lots of mistakes along the way. But I do my best to rectify mistakes when caught. But just because that's my work ethic I don't presume to tell someone that they must embrace my standards; however, I do reserve the right to support or not support creators during the learning process.

51 minutes ago, Dorientje Woller said:

That doesn't take away the right/need to be a perfectionist.

It's taken me decades to learn I don't have to be a perfectionist. I still strive to make things as nearly perfect as I can but I've learned beating myself up for making errors is counterproductive. So why would I expect others to produce perfection?

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