Diversity and Inclusion in Second Life

[Luna Bliss]

1 minute ago, Zalificent Corvinus said:

37 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

You're assuming the white male is

There is a new Star Wars game on the way.

The "community manager" at the games company talk the way you do, she's decided that they don't want the game to appeal to white males. Her comments on social media, are so toxic and filled with "DEI Fanatic" rhetoric, that realistically, they will be lucky if ANYONE buys the game.

And maybe look up the foaming at the mouth employees of "SBI", a "DEI Consultancy" for the games industry, who's DEI advice has caused dozens of titles to flop, and destroyed at least two games dev companies.

 

One of the franchises I have enjoyed playing is the "Saints Row" series. the company that made those games, hired SBI to advise them, the result was that SR5, simply promoted as an un-numbered "Reboot", had literally no references to the previous games, other than the title, and the characters of the "Saints" were a "PC DEI Woke Joke".

 

Preppy college grads, paying of their student loans by being criminals and urban mercenaries. The leader, your player character is about as believable as a 5 foot tall 85 lb teenage girl being head of the FBI, a rocket scientist, and  basketball champion, at the same time.

 

the game bombed, you can buy it now, if you're desperate, for pennies, and the company that made it, went under.

 

One bunch of missions in that last instalment of urban crime gang themed games, was about actual criminals, cosplaying as fantasy warriors, in cardboard armour with foam rubber weapons.

I enjoyed the previous games, because you could create your own character, your own way, and kickback with some fun. "SR DEI Edition" just tried to deliberately SUCK all the fun out of the franchise, while pushing it's "message".

A series I really enjoyed, destroyed by people who talk the way you do about this stuff. "Weaponised Fairness" that's become UNFAIR!

I prefer the old "unfair" versions that were  much fairer, and a lot more fun.

It can certainly become too extreme...as with anything...that doesn't mean it doesn't benefit some and that we should throw it out.

I wouldn't base my idea of reality on the problems with one game I'm familiar with...it would be only one personal experience...a broader perspective is needed.  You can research this online to see how various dynamics can enable some to have a heads up in society...proof...verified studies done on it..

[Bubblesort Triskaidekaphobia]

21 minutes ago, Persephone Emerald said:

(Btw, when people play a different race than they are in RL in RL, it's not considered a good thing.)

Really?  I never really talked to people about it, I guess.  I always assumed that people bend race as much as they bend gender.  For a long time people thought my avatar was indian, because I was trying to look mid-40s, and picked a skin tone that went with my face wrinkles, which people thought was indian.  I'm very white (2nd generation Irish American).  I have worn a black avatar before.  I can change race like changing jackets.  I don't change it that much, but sometimes I do, when I'm in the mood.  Nobody ever asked what my RL race is, so I assumed they don't care.

I think the only time I ran into racism was years ago, when I made a black female alt, and spent a few months in virtual mecca, studying islam with muslim scholars from all over the world, just to see what it's like to study something like that from a different perspective.  Aside from some inappropriate flirting, many people from muslim countries would say things like, "Why do you wear such a dark skin?  You could be so pretty!"  It wasn't people dropping n-bombs, but they threw some shade.  I mean, I don't really know, because I'm white, IRL, but taking a bit of shade like that seems pretty mild, compared to what black people put up with in RL.  I get that much shade just for being fat in RL.  I think people are just *****ty to everybody, on a certain level.  Anyway... I'm not trying to start a holy war here, but I will say that I'm still an atheist, after studying the quaran like that.

[Ayashe Ninetails]

6 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

Does SL do a good job of signaling its inclusiveness, as a platform, to POC, members of the LGBTQ+ community, women, etc?

Yes.

 

6 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

• Does representation in-world reflect RL diversity, or are there impediments to that?

Ehhhhhh. In some ways, yes. A trip through SL is a lot like a trip around NYC in that I'll be exposed to quite a few different languages in local if I zip around enough.

Do I see a lot of myself in SL, though? Well, there's a lot of roleplay. I'll just leave it at that. 👀

[Zalificent Corvinus]

8 minutes ago, Love Zhaoying said:

Oh great, the usual suspects came in to ruin another thread. And, I created it to get away from their shenanigans!

Second Life has "ultimate diversity" - the fact they do this with aplomb is proof positive!

And it does that by NOT having "official quotas" on what skin tones people can put on their avatars, or quotas on what gender of mesh body nd head people are allowed to buy, bu not having quotas on how many short people or tall people or skinny people or fat people there are.

 

You don't get "community managers" IMing you to tell you that you are not allowed to be a 6 ft male of European ancestry, and must immediately make a "4 foot 8 inch  female pacific islander with an eating disorder" avatar or be banned.

 

[Extrude Ragu]

The racism problem we had in the past was that people were actually racist.

The racism problem we have in the present is that keeping racism alive is a multi billion dollar industry.

The sooner people learn to stop caring, the sooner all this nonsense stops.

Also, we have this issue in the West right now that people are basing their whole personality around social justice issues, wars and politics, it radicalises people who would otherwise lead normal lives and have more healthy, productive hobbies.

[Persephone Emerald]

8 minutes ago, Bubblesort Triskaidekaphobia said:

Really?  I never really talked to people about it, I guess.  I always assumed that people bend race as much as they bend gender.  For a long time people thought my avatar was indian, because I was trying to look mid-40s, and picked a skin tone that went with my face wrinkles, which people thought was indian.  I'm very white (2nd generation Irish American).  I have worn a black avatar before.  I can change race like changing jackets.  I don't change it that much, but sometimes I do, when I'm in the mood.  Nobody ever asked what my RL race is, so I assumed they don't care.

I think the only time I ran into racism was years ago, when I made a black female alt, and spent a few months in virtual mecca, studying islam with muslim scholars from all over the world, just to see what it's like to study something like that from a different perspective.  Aside from some inappropriate flirting, many people from muslim countries would say things like, "Why do you wear such a dark skin?  You could be so pretty!"  It wasn't people dropping n-bombs, but they threw some shade.  I mean, I don't really know, because I'm white, IRL, but taking a bit of shade like that seems pretty mild, compared to what black people put up with in RL.  I get that much shade just for being fat in RL.  I think people are just *****ty to everybody, on a certain level.  Anyway... I'm not trying to start a holy war here, but I will say that I'm still an atheist, after studying the quaran like that.

I meant to imply an ironic reference to people in RL wearing black-face, yellow-face, dressing up as a caricature of a Native American mascot of their favorite sports team, a "witch-doctor" and such. 

As long as people are not creating a negative caricature in SL, representing as a different race than one is in RL, seems to be ok with most people.

Edited April 10 by Persephone Emerald
typo

[Arielle Popstar]

18 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

My sense is that there are far more POC in SL now than there were when I started. Or at least more people representing as POC. Does that reflect conscious strategies on LL's part? Is it the result of a broader range of products available for diverse representation? And if the latter, is that because there is now a market for them that there wasn't at one time?

I rather doubt it was a conscious decision on the Lab's part but that of the culture in general becoming much more open and comfortable with the idea of diversity and inclusivity and then the Lab going with the flow in response.

[Zalificent Corvinus]

7 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

It can certainly become too extreme...as with anything...that doesn't mean it doesn't benefit some and that we should throw it out.

I wouldn't base my idea of reality on the problems with one game I'm familiar with...it would be only one personal experience...a broader perspective is needed.  You can research this online to see how various dynamics can enable some to have a heads up in society...proof...verified studies done on it..

No, you do some research.

There's a discussion group on Steam, where people can "out" any game that SBI have been involved with, it has over 350,000 subscribers.

The DEI Fanatic Consultancy has destroyed dozens of games, everything they touch bombs, they have destroyed TWO previously successful companies who hired them with their "advice".

 

Apparently there's an actual games industry survey firm, that's checked up on what games people ACTUALLY play, so the industry can figure what kinds of games to make next.

 

Games OVER 6 years old account for 60% of all playtime on PC, Xbox, Playstation and Switch New games released in 2023 accounted for less than 8 %.

One of 2023's most successful games, got a 0.6 % share of all playtime.

The industry is in serious trouble, analysts are saying that NEXT years planned release of GTA 6 will be critical, and the bad news is, the devs have hired SBI, people are worrying that one of the most popular and successful franchises, from one of the big name AAA title developers, will fold under "DEI Fanatic induced Anti-Fun", and take the whole AAA Games Studio industry down with it.

You just kill threads, your "sisters in the struggle" are killing an industry.

 

[Scylla Rhiadra]

26 minutes ago, Ayashe Ninetails said:

Yes.

Ironically (or not), one of the ways LL does market itself as inclusive is by carefully tucking away the not-so-inclusive parts ("plantation RP" or r*pe play, for instance) behind the "Adult" rating.

I wonder if many RL women might think twice about trying out SL if they were more aware of the prevalence and popularity of misogynist groups and RP here?

26 minutes ago, Ayashe Ninetails said:

Ehhhhhh. In some ways, yes. A trip through SL is a lot like a trip around NYC in that I'll be exposed to quite a few different languages in local if I zip around enough.

Do I see a lot of myself in SL, though? Well, there's a lot of roleplay. I'll just leave it at that. 👀

Good distinction.

I do see a lot of "myself" in SL -- by which I mean women of whatever sexual orientation or ethnicity who are not gendered stereotypes. (Although god knows, I run across the other type often enough too.)

But then I'm a well-educated, privileged white woman. So . . . not a very useful measure.

PS. Just to make it clear that "myself" is not a racialized term: I have women friends in SL who represent as (and as far as I can know, actually are) black with whom I feel a very strong affinity and connection. But then again, it's relatively easy for me not to feel that race is an issue. That's clearly and for obvious reasons not necessarily the case with WOC.

Edited April 11 by Scylla Rhiadra

[Arielle Popstar]

23 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

I wouldn't base my idea of reality on the problems with one game I'm familiar with...it would be only one personal experience...a broader perspective is needed.  You can research this online to see how various dynamics can enable some to have a heads up in society...proof...verified studies done on it..

So keep testing until you get the results you want? Right, more confirmation bias.

[Scylla Rhiadra]

9 minutes ago, Arielle Popstar said:

I rather doubt it was a conscious decision on the Lab's part but that of the culture in general becoming much more open and comfortable with the idea of diversity and inclusivity and then the Lab going with the flow in response.

In general I'm sure you're right, although the decisions to publicly support BLM, and produce a "community page" for black people are surely conscious decisions that must have been considered, at least in part, from a marketing or PR perspective.

[Arielle Popstar]

3 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

In general I'm sure you're right, although the decisions to publicly support BLM, and produce a "community page" for black people are surely conscious decisions that must have been considered, at least in part, from a marketing or PR perspective.

Or a fear of the potential pushback had they not.

[Scylla Rhiadra]

1 minute ago, Arielle Popstar said:

Or a fear of the potential pushback had they not.

Possibly. Again, though, that's the same thing: these were in essence marketing decisions.

[Ayashe Ninetails]

18 minutes ago, Persephone Emerald said:

As long as people are not creating a negative caricature in SL, representing as a different race than one is in RL, seems to be ok with most people.

Unpopular opinion I know, but I find it to be highly annoying. There's a reason for that, though, being someone who may be looking to connect with others who are like me. Kind of a downer when it hits you they're just roleplaying.

 

7 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

Ironically (or not), one of the ways LL does market itself as inclusive is by carefully tucking away the not-so-inclusive parts ("plantation RP" or r*pe play, for instance) behind the "Adult" rating.

I wonder if many RL women might think twice about trying out SL if they were more aware of the prevalence and popularity of misogynist groups and RP here?

Yeeeeeeah, that's a good point. I was purely thinking about LL's approach on social media and featured snapshots and highlighted blog posts and all that, and in those, yeah, I definitely see some representation for a lot of groups.

The other junk that's tucked away, though....ugh. UGH I say. Don't get me started, lol.

[Rowan Amore]

11 minutes ago, Ayashe Ninetails said:

Unpopular opinion I know, but I find it to be highly annoying. There's a reason for that, though, being someone who may be looking to connect with others who are like me. Kind of a downer when it hits you they're just roleplaying.

But wouldn't that then have to apply to gender as well?   If it doesn't matter what someone is behind the avatar, as you have said yourself, why does it apply to race?  Is it fine to use a male avatar as a female but not a white avatar as a black female?

 

53 minutes ago, Persephone Emerald said:

I'm inclined to agree that there are probably more people of color in SL than there were 10 years ago. I base this on the YouTube videos I've seen by SL users.

I think a lot has to do with not having a variety of choices where skins were concerned.  When I started SL, there were 2 stores that catered to African American skins.  A few more came along over the years until today where you can find them everywhere.  And well done, too.

 

 

Edited April 11 by Rowan Amore

[BilliJo Aldrin]

1 hour ago, Persephone Emerald said:

Just a reminder. The topic is about Diversity, Inclusion and Equity in Second Life. Discussing how this dynamic at Linden Lab affects its perception within SL might be relevant, but we don't really know the diversity makeup of all the Linden employees.

Discussion of Diversity, Inclusion and Equity practices in RL is off-topic and likely to get this thread locked.

discussing DEI inside second life itself is kind of silly. Are people suggesting that there is racism in  the hiring of dancers, hosts and dj’s or regarding creators? Since we know nothing of the RL person behind the avatar, perhaps its being suggested that DEI be incorporated in second life so that minority AVATARS get equal opportunities and representation?

[BilliJo Aldrin]

13 minutes ago, Ayashe Ninetails said:

Unpopular opinion I know, but I find it to be highly annoying. There's a reason for that, though, being someone who may be looking to connect with others who are like me. Kind of a downer when it hits you they're just roleplaying.

 

Yeeeeeeah, that's a good point. I was purely thinking about LL's approach on social media and featured snapshots and highlighted blog posts and all that, and in those, yeah, I definitely see some representation for a lot of groups.

The other junk that's tucked away, though....ugh. UGH I say. Don't get me started, lol.

The only group that is under represented in second life advertizing  are straight white people, who ironically probably make up the majority of people in second life. 

[BilliJo Aldrin]

29 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

In general I'm sure you're right, although the decisions to publicly support BLM, and produce a "community page" for black people are surely conscious decisions that must have been considered, at least in part, from a marketing or PR perspective.

Its because they dont want BLM picketing in front of their headquarters, not that BLM signs on businesses in 2020 saved owners during the “mostly peaceful” protests

[Zalificent Corvinus]

2 minutes ago, Rowan Amore said:

I think a lot has to do with not having a variety of choices where skins were concerned.  When I started SL, there were 2 stores that catered to African American skins.  A few more came along over the years until today where you can find them everywhere.  And well done, too.

By way of contrast, there was a thread some years back, thankfully long since nuked, in which one bizarre individual complained bitterly, that of the 12 new account signup starter avatars on the signup page, "only 7" were not "coloniser skin tones", and demanded that there should be some kind of quota system to prevent people making any more "coloniser skin tone" avatars, because they felt "threatened" by colonisers being allowed to log in to SL.

They also wanted LL to stop skin makers from making "too many coloniser skin tones" for avatars.

But at the same time they were dead set against "colonisers" wearing Avatars of colour" because that was "cultural appropriation".

So basically, if you happened to live in a part of the world with a different ethnic makeup to downtown SanFran, this nutjob didn't want you to be allowed into SL.

Because Diversity and Inclusivity, should only apply to NON-colonisers, right?

 

This is the same mentality that has people claiming you shouldn't have Drow or Orcs in fantasy games because "it's just a parody of PoC by evil colonisers from that You-Rope place".

 

[Arielle Popstar]

25 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

Possibly. Again, though, that's the same thing: these were in essence marketing decisions.

Maybe though I find reactive marketing to be more about keeping what one already has where proactive marketing is about opening new markets. Minor quibble but it says something about the marketing department.

[Zalificent Corvinus]

9 minutes ago, BilliJo Aldrin said:

perhaps its being suggested that DEI be incorporated in second life so that minority AVATARS get equal opportunities and representation?

That's actually a thing in the games industry now. the community manager for the new Star Wars game seriously wants to remove all traces of "middle aged while males" from the game.

Master Kenobi, is no longer welcome in Star Wars, apparently.

[Persephone Emerald]

6 minutes ago, Rowan Amore said:

 

I think a lot has to do with not having a variety of choices where skins were concerned.  When I started SL, there were 2 stores that catered to African American skins.  A few more came along over the years until today where you can find them everywhere.  And well done, too.

 

I agree this is part of what's made people of color feel more comfortable in SL. Skins in general have gotten so much more realistic and nicer, even before EvoX. There have also been more creators of color making skin, hair and clothing that reflects what they what to have available in SL. When good skins, hair and clothing are available, people are free to be more visible as their RL selves too.

[Zalificent Corvinus]

16 minutes ago, BilliJo Aldrin said:

The only group that is under represented in second life advertizing  are straight white people

Nonsense!

Look at the banner picture at the top of the forum, you can plainly see the White Trophy Girlfriend, she looks straight, right? She has a boyfriend!

 

[Ayashe Ninetails]

7 minutes ago, Rowan Amore said:

But wouldn't that then have to apply to gender as well?   If it doesn't matter what someone is behind the avatar, as you have said yourself, why does it apply to race?  Is it fine to use a male avatar as a female but not a white avatar as a black female?

If I'm looking to connect on something specific (a specific topic or some such), gender doesn't matter for me personally, but race absolutely could, depending on the conversation. 

Random example - If I see a black woman shopping for hair and start discussing our RL hair or makeup, well, obviously that's going to be a leeeetle different if it turns out she's got no clue on Earth what I'm talking about. A black man would probably understand, though (maybe not makeup, but on the hair front, sure), so in that case, gender doesn't matter whatsoever. That could extend to a lot of subjects, really - comedy, music, current events, things that happened in our community on Twitter, sharing community subreddits, etc.

I grew up and lived around lots of girls, boys, men, and women. I did not have the experience of being around black girls, boys, men, or women, though (almost never at school/college, barely ever at work), so it's like oooo someone like meeeeee for once - oh nvm. 🤣

[BilliJo Aldrin]

37 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

Possibly. Again, though, that's the same thing: these were in essence marketing decisions.

LOL, so you are saying LL doesn’t actually support BLM, they just do it to keep making money? (Just like all those other companies that “support” BLM no doubt). By the way the BLM leadership was outed as race baiting grifters quite some time ago.

But I called them out back in 2020 if anyone wants to look up my post.

😂