Luna Bliss Posted April 2 Share Posted April 2 1 minute ago, Theresa Tennyson said: 6 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said: And 'hobby' is subjective -- what's a 'hobby' to you can be a real job for another. If a consumer has a choice between something that's made by someone who's doing it as a real job and something made by a person who's doing it as a hobby, and the products are equivalent in quality but the "hobby" item is less expensive, which should the consumer choose, and why? That's too general of a statement. I'd have to know the living conditions of the hobbyist vs the living conditions of the wage-earner. It would also depend on what funds I had available and how I want/need to spend them. Personally I don't always choose the cheapest just because it is. No easy answer here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Love Zhaoying Posted April 2 Share Posted April 2 I am so disappointed in this thread. Those of you who are having to fight so hard, who believe so strongly in what you say - can't you be bothered to at least bring 2, maybe 3 alts into the discussion to support your argument? It's like people don't even care anymore. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rowan Amore Posted April 2 Share Posted April 2 Now it's just bordering on ridiculous. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Love Zhaoying Posted April 2 Share Posted April 2 3 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said: That's too general of a statement. I'd have to know the living conditions of the hobbyist vs the living conditions of the wage-earner. It would also depend on what funds I had available and how I want/need to spend them. Personally I don't always choose the cheapest just because it is. No easy answer here. You're rather brave, as my serious answer would be, "Who am I to judge? Only God can judge who is more deserving." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rowan Amore Posted April 2 Share Posted April 2 Just now, Love Zhaoying said: I am so disappointed in this thread. Those of you who are having to fight so hard, who believe so strongly in what you say - can't you be bothered to at least bring 2, maybe 3 alts into the discussion to support your argument? It's like people don't even care anymore. 2 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Love Zhaoying Posted April 2 Share Posted April 2 2 minutes ago, Rowan Amore said: Now it's just bordering on ridiculous. It's like Madonna said in the song, "Borderline": When I look around, baby you just can't be found Stop driving me away, I just wanna stay There's something I just got to say Just try to understand, I've given all I can 'Cause you got the best of me Borderline feels like I'm going to lose my mind You just keep on pushing my love over the borderline Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luna Bliss Posted April 2 Share Posted April 2 3 minutes ago, Modulated said: 7 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said: It seems you don't understand that LL is the entity in control of this. They make more money (or think they do) by structuring things the way they do. You are still not an employee while making and selling as a resident. They have bills to pay and a bottom line , they let you use the platform for arguably very little to sell goods and services. Just because it doesn't operate the way you think it should and you're not pulling down the money you think you're entitled to does not mean something is wrong here. I have seen no documentation that says they are a charity, if you have please show me. I've never said they're a charity or should not be concerned about their bottom line. What I am saying is that we need to be considering our position on the internet (as freelancers) when increasingly faced with corporations who want to use us to inflate their income at the expense of considering our needs. I'm looking to the future, and I'm seeing SL as one of the forerunners or participants in the increasing phenomenon of people earning big chunks of their income (if not all) online. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luna Bliss Posted April 2 Share Posted April 2 3 minutes ago, Love Zhaoying said: 6 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said: That's too general of a statement. I'd have to know the living conditions of the hobbyist vs the living conditions of the wage-earner. It would also depend on what funds I had available and how I want/need to spend them. Personally I don't always choose the cheapest just because it is. No easy answer here. You're rather brave, as my serious answer would be, "Who am I to judge? Only God can judge who is more deserving." Well, I do make some judgements regarding my purchasing power. I don't buy from corporations that use sweatshops as I don't condone abusing others. However if I became destitute I may need to do so if they offer the cheapest product. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sid Posted April 2 Share Posted April 2 5 minutes ago, Love Zhaoying said: I am so disappointed in this thread. Those of you who are having to fight so hard, who believe so strongly in what you say - can't you be bothered to at least bring 2, maybe 3 alts into the discussion to support your argument? It's like people don't even care anymore. Do you really think it helps if I step in too? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Modulated Posted April 2 Share Posted April 2 Just now, Luna Bliss said: I've never said they're a charity or should not be concerned about their bottom line. What I am saying is that we need to be considering our position on the internet (as freelancers) when increasingly faced with corporations who want to use us to inflate their income at the expense of considering our needs. I'm looking to the future, and I'm seeing SL as one of the forerunners or participants in the increasing phenomenon of people earning big chunks of their income (if not all) online. I'm looking to the future too, and to keep my bank account at a level I want and am comfortable with, SL does not factor into it at all for dependency on income. You gotta have some hustle or you're not gonna make it. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Persephone Emerald Posted April 2 Share Posted April 2 16 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said: So people who advocate for better working conditions and wages, or more rights in any society, be it RL or virtual, are doing something wrong? They should just "leave"? I'm glad the women who changed society via gaining voting rights for women and equal pay for them didn't just 'vacate'. If you want to advocate for better conditions, offer solutions. Create a forum or even a thread where others can suggest and debate possible solutions. @Coffee Pancake made a suggestion with this thread that we've been debating. So far I haven't seen much support for it, but at least we're having a discussion. How would you suggest artists and creators in SL could better earn a living wage? Maybe they should create a guild to help them support each other better? Oh, but they're competing against each other, aren't they? The Linden Endowment for the Arts used to be a project to help support artists in SL, but I think Linden Lab gave up on that. Maybe you could help with running a privately supported version? 2 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Love Zhaoying Posted April 2 Share Posted April 2 1 minute ago, Sid said: Do you really think it helps if I step in too? If you're on the side that needs help in the argument, yes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Love Zhaoying Posted April 2 Share Posted April 2 2 minutes ago, Persephone Emerald said: @Coffee Pancake made a suggestion with this thread that we've been debating. So far I haven't seen much support for it, but at least we're having a discussion. I think the general consensus is, that Coffee's suggestion would hurt more people than it helps (renters was a good example) because EVERYTHING would get more expensive. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Love Zhaoying Posted April 2 Share Posted April 2 7 minutes ago, Persephone Emerald said: How would you suggest artists and creators in SL could better earn a living wage? Maybe they should create a guild to help them support each other better? This is similar to my serious suggestion to form a union / coalition, etc. Great minds! But somehow, complaining here and blaming LL is the only answer, it seems. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CaitlinParker Posted April 2 Share Posted April 2 (edited) 2 hours ago, Luna Bliss said: You're misunderstanding the Love Machine principle -- it's not to get people to work for peanuts, but instead he encouraged people to become passionate about their work instead of viewing work as only a way to earn money. From what I read about it he always paid people well. The complexities of the economy in SL is a separate matter. Originally SL was formed for creative & fun pursuits, and the exchange of goods only came into play as it evolved. However, I'm sure higher management believes the way the economy is structured now benefits them more vs how it could be structured to benefit merchants more. You do understand that SL creators have RL jobs, right? You do understand that people who create in SL are considered to be non-contracted freelancers, right? Basically, LL can pay the creators a percentage of the Lindens they make from their sales. Now, where does the bulk of the money come from for creators? It comes from their RL jobs while any other money they rake in from virtual worlds becomes their side gig as they sell their virtual goods on whatever platform they choose... be it DAZ, AvatarLife, et cetera. Yes, I do understand that for some creators, creating virtual items for 3D worlds is their job and their job might actually be working in computer graphics creating virtual game assets for people; but, the thing you need to remember is that LL sets the rules and standards for what gets paid out to each and every creator as LL considers every one of them as non-contracted freelancers. Edited April 2 by CaitlinParker 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sid Nagy Posted April 2 Share Posted April 2 2 minutes ago, Love Zhaoying said: I think the general consensus is, that Coffee's suggestion would hurt more people than it helps (renters was a good example) because EVERYTHING would get more expensive. Prices would adapt to the new situation. In the Netherlands we had prior to the euro the dutch guilder. When the euro came the exchange course was 1 euro = 2.20 NLG. So basically what used to cost 4 NLG became around 2 euro in the new pricing. That would happen with a new L$ value too IMHO. 2 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Persephone Emerald Posted April 2 Share Posted April 2 22 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said: It seems you don't understand that LL is the entity in control of this. They make more money (or think they do) by structuring things the way they do. Linden Lab rewards a few creators when they think it's in their interest to do so, but the rest are basically working for tips here...or for free exposure, if they're an artist. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Love Zhaoying Posted April 2 Share Posted April 2 Wait wait wait.. Don't the "higher quality" creators, DJ's, etc. ALREADY charge more L$ for their products and services? What are we exactly demanding here? That everyone be paid the same, even for lesser quality goods and services? WOW! 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Love Zhaoying Posted April 2 Share Posted April 2 (edited) 4 minutes ago, CaitlinParker said: Now, where does the bulk of the money come from for creators? It comes from their RL jobs while any other money they rake in from virtual worlds becomes their side gig as they sell their virtual goods on whatever platform they choose... be it DAZ, AvatarLife, et cetera. Years ago, there were users who went "full time" as creators and posted about it here. Then later, they posted about how they could no longer make a living at it (due to fees, changes in sales, etc.). So, in a sense - all this happened LONG ago. Everyone who is complaining is for some reason forgetting the past and telling the story as if it were "new". Edited April 2 by Love Zhaoying On changed to At 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luna Bliss Posted April 2 Share Posted April 2 3 minutes ago, CaitlinParker said: You do understand that SL creators have RL jobs, right? You do understand that people who create in SL are considered to be non-contracted freelancers, right? I hope you will understand that I do not want you to address me further with this annoying attitude. Thank you. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CaithLynnSayes Posted April 2 Share Posted April 2 Wow. why am I always late to the party? lol. What a long read this was. @Coffee Pancake I'm not sure if you blocked me or not (i suspect you do, lol) but i digress. I've seen the things you said here on this forum and this reaffirms my opinion of your overal ideas: It's so obvious you have no idea how economics works. Like, at all. I could sit here and pick apart what you said in your original post, but a fair bit of people (thankfully) have done that already in great detail. I'm proud of you all! You complain in your OP about the fact that "we're selling ourselves short". and that creators (I happen to be one of those) sell things way too cheap. Look, this goes out to all creators: Don't build your house on land you don't own. By that i mean, don't set up a business on a platform you don't control. LL has in it's ToS from day 1 of existing (i checked the wayback machine) that they can kick you out for no reason whatsoever and they don't have to tell you why they did. (Although, if they ever kicked me out, i would know why, let's be fair, lol.) So, i make around €700,- a month in SL, absolutely not enough to live on. I could make more if i put more time into it, but i won't. I got a big family and a fulltime job (that i love). SL to me is relax and creative time. I understand that there are creators here in SL that live off of it, but my advice is, don't put your eggs in one basket. Don't fully rely on SL as an income. Mainly for what is in ToS like i previously described, but also, what if LL goes bankrupt? You'll fall along with it. Don't put your eggs in one basket! And don't post ridiculous ideas like OP here. I genially thought it was an April Fools joke. It was disappointing to read when OP said she was serious. Not surprised, if i'm honest though... 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luna Bliss Posted April 2 Share Posted April 2 4 minutes ago, Sid Nagy said: 10 minutes ago, Love Zhaoying said: I think the general consensus is, that Coffee's suggestion would hurt more people than it helps (renters was a good example) because EVERYTHING would get more expensive. Prices would adapt to the new situation. In the Netherlands we had prior to the euro the dutch guilder. When the euro came the exchange course was 1 euro = 2.20 NLG. So basically what used to cost 4 NLG became around 2 euro in the new pricing. That would happen with a new L$ value too IMHO. So true. When prices were so much higher in years past people purchased anyway. No doubt some would be able to afford less, but we all have choices to make with our entertainment budget. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CaitlinParker Posted April 2 Share Posted April 2 Just now, Luna Bliss said: I hope you will understand that I do not want you to address me further with this annoying attitude. Thank you. All because I asked you obvious yes or no questions, you suddenly want to go the passive aggressive route? 5 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sid Nagy Posted April 2 Share Posted April 2 "And now the time is near, And so we face the final curtain...." It is getting way to personal (again) Which Mole will step in with the keys this time? Or will it be a Linden. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Love Zhaoying Posted April 2 Share Posted April 2 5 minutes ago, Sid Nagy said: Prices would adapt to the new situation. In the Netherlands we had prior to the euro the dutch guilder. When the euro came the exchange course was 1 euro = 2.20 NLG. So basically what used to cost 4 NLG became around 2 euro in the new pricing. That would happen with a new L$ value too IMHO. Inflation. But a lot of people would be "priced out" because unlike RL, where inflation tends to impact "everything" if you are lucky (including pay), people who do not get "paid" in SL would be expected to "pay more" in SL. So, there are big flaws comparing SL inflation with RL inflation. Since in RL, everyone "gets paid" unless they are themselves receiving some type of charity (or are totally destitute). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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