38 attachment points are not enough

[AyelaNewLife]

You heard me.

Completely nude, my avatar takes up 20 attachment points, not including HUDs which can be removed without breaking functionality (e.g. an AO HUD is useless unattached). For the sake of my sanity I leave 2 more HUDs attached 24/7, and I need to keep 2 further attachment points open to temporarily add HUDs when changing outfits etc etc. 

Basic everyday outfits take up 4-8 further attachment points, depending on accessories and how various bits of clothing are divided up. More creative outfits (e.g. for fantasy or cyber looks) will typically take up 8-12 attachment points due to the extra accessories and modularity of outfits for those genres. If I want to add special effects, that's another 2-6 attachment points typically.

And if I want to take photos of any of these outfits, that's an additional 5 HUDs plus potential props.

If you've been keeping count, that's typically ~26-30 attachment points if I'm just wandering around in basic everyday clothing. It works fine, and I have slack below the current limit of 38. But if I want to do anything creative or fancy, I very quickly have to start making trade-offs.

I have gorgeous fantasy outfits that I cannot photograph because a creator broke their products down into 7 pieces to allow the user to fine-tune their look, and they cannot fit under the attachment limit alongside my posing and camera tools, nor can I use special effects in roleplay settings. With other outfits, I have to choose a piece of the look to cull; maybe a hairband, or a belt, or modesty clothing... or my wedding ring. Or I have to fight with RLV to remove utility tools designed to be worn 24/7, such as an automatic group changer. Or countless other choices where I have to decide what attachments I must give up to satisfy an entirely arbitrary limit.

None of these trade-offs feel good to the user. And it's never the primary sources of visual or script-based lag which are on the chopping block, it's the smaller components, the lightweight tools. A raised limit of 45 or 50 attachments is all that's needed to give people that vital extra bit of breathing space. Most people won't need the extra slots, and that's fine; but that change will be of massive help to those who, on occasion, do.

Thanks for coming to my TED Talk.

I just want to pre-emptively see off some predictable rebuttals:

Q: Won't this cause extra lag?

A: No. Most people sit comfortably below the limit. If you don't believe me, go walk around a busy sim and zap people with a visible attachment reader. It won't show you HUDs, but it will demonstrate that most people will have 12-20 visible attachments on. Lifting the limit won't change that, it would simply remove a barrier for a minority of cases.

Q: Why would we allow people to raise their complexity even higher?

A: I have a pair of fishnets from a major creator that weigh in at 675k complexity according to LL's complexity calculations. Conversely, most of my piercings, bracelets etc sit at ~800-1400 complexity. It's those lightweight extras that get culled to make room, not the major outfit components.

Q: Back in my day, we made do with mesh hands, at most a top and jeans, and if we're lucky we painted on shoes with system layers, and-

A: No one cares. That was over a decade ago, times have changed. It's time to move on.

[Modulated]

People have complained about this for years, and the limit still has not been raised, so make of that what you will.

[Rowan Amore]

https://feedback.secondlife.com/feature-requests/p/more-attachment-points

[Love Zhaoying]

Idea: Premium Plus users should get more attachment points!

 

[Love Zhaoying]

45 minutes ago, AyelaNewLife said:

Completely nude, my avatar takes up 20 attachment points

For someone like me who is blissfully ignorant, could you help by explaining how being "nude" you still somehow use 20 attachment points?

I can only guess a few:  Head, Body, Alpha (if you use an older avatar and need that), Hair, nails, and 2-3 HUDs (head, body, AO)

 

[Cristiano Midnight]

3 minutes ago, Love Zhaoying said:

Idea: Premium Plus users should get more attachment points!

 

Do they not? I have the original lifetime account and have 50 attachment points, I assume premium and premium plus are similar but I admittedly have not looked what they include.

[Cristiano Midnight]

1 minute ago, Love Zhaoying said:

For someone like me who is blissfully ignorant, could you help by explaining how being "nude" you still somehow use 20 attachment points?

I can only guess a few:  Head, Body, Alpha (if you use an older avatar and need that), Hair, nails, and 2-3 HUDs (head, body, AO)

 

If they have bom tattoos, skins, hair bases, etc that would add many. Also, the mesh body, head, eyes, teeth, feet depending on wish mesh body, etc would be 10 or so right there.

[Love Zhaoying]

1 minute ago, Cristiano Midnight said:

5 minutes ago, Love Zhaoying said:

Idea: Premium Plus users should get more attachment points!

 

Do they not? I have the original lifetime account and have 50 attachment points, I assume premium and premium plus are similar but I admittedly have not looked what they include.

Good point! I think my post was based on some dim memory that we (PP+, etc.) DO get more attachment points.  While "tongue in cheek", because it would not address the OP's request which I assume is for "all users"..

May you have a long and happy lifetime!

 

[Love Zhaoying]

4 minutes ago, Cristiano Midnight said:

If they have bom tattoos, skins, hair bases, etc that would add many.

Ahah! I did not consider BOM layers "attachments". Not sure why, I guess it's the "bake" part and the (again dim) knowledge that certain ("system"?) layers cannot be removed.  ETA: Are skins attachments? TIL!!

4 minutes ago, Cristiano Midnight said:

Also, the mesh body, head, eyes, teeth, feet depending on wish mesh body, etc would be 10 or so right there.

Ok, I missed eyes and teeth, and didn't even consider people may add different feet when "nude"!

Last I checked, the "normal" body attachment is 1 object, and head is 1 object (assuming no "neck fix" attachment)...?

 

Edited March 13 by Love Zhaoying
BOM not BOL

[Paul Hexem]

I've always been of the mind that if you're using up that many attachment points, you're the reason for lag.

Or at the very least, you're doing something very, very wrong- even if it's as simple as supporting too many "no mod" merchants.

[Rowan Amore]

BOM layers (tattoos and alphas also) are considered layers and not attachments.  You are allowed 60 of those.  There are 47 attachment points but still only 38 attachments allowed.  Personally, I've never reached the limit and I wear all kinds of things.  Nails, jewelry, mesh body/head and all those entail.  Clothing, hair, shoes, etc.  The only HUD I always have is my AO since I've yet to make a Firestorm AO.  Some day...

 

[Arielle Popstar]

7 minutes ago, Paul Hexem said:

I've always been of the mind that if you're using up that many attachment points, you're the reason for lag.

Or at the very least, you're doing something very, very wrong- even if it's as simple as supporting too many "no mod" merchants.

Not really. I hit the limit the other day with an outfit I purchased and had to decide what items to remove though each was quite important to the overall look which was not really anything beyond a dress, top, makeup, mesh body, feet and hands. There are very few "no mod" creators out there and like the OP mentioned, so many creators making each item of an outfit with its own attachment point. Men may not have so much of a problem seeing they have so much less make up so maybe they could give up a few of theirs and give it to the girls

[Paul Hexem]

3 minutes ago, Arielle Popstar said:

There are very few "no mod" creators out there and like the OP mentioned, so many creators making each item of an outfit with its own attachment point.

Should be letting those merchants know they're screwing up your ability to attach their stuff, I think.

[AyelaNewLife]

51 minutes ago, Love Zhaoying said:

For someone like me who is blissfully ignorant, could you help by explaining how being "nude" you still somehow use 20 attachment points?

I can only guess a few:  Head, Body, Alpha (if you use an older avatar and need that), Hair, nails, and 2-3 HUDs (head, body, AO)

Attachment points are only taken up by mesh objects. BOM layers, skins, physics, alpha layers etc do not contribute towards that limit.

Most mesh bodies will come in 3 components; body, feet and hands. Most mesh heads come in 3-4 components; head, eyes, teeth, ears (more variation between brands here). Hairs will usually only take up 1 slot, but often will come with an accessory or wisps etc in addition. That gets you more or less halfway to 20.

Then you add in accessories that are almost always on. For me, that's my glasses, earrings, nose piercing and wedding ring, for 4 more attachments. A body deformer, the Firestorm bridge and an AO takes me to 15 attachments. Nothing I've described so far is excessive or out of the ordinary for most people.

I then have a couple of extras that might not be considered essential by most people. An RLV collar, and a scriptless alternative collar as I prefer the visuals of one and the mechanics of the other. A spanker and a kisser. I keep my deformer HUD on 24/7 due to issues with region crossings, and I keep my visible attachment reader on 24/7 for ease of stealing ideas gaining inspiration. I also have a HUD that automatically changes my active group e.g. if I go to a store that I'm a member of.

So that's actually 22; I rounded down.

[AyelaNewLife]

11 minutes ago, Paul Hexem said:

Should be letting those merchants know they're screwing up your ability to attach their stuff, I think.

This gives big "don't buy from corporations" energy.

[taisiyakarpenko]

11 minutes ago, Rowan Amore said:

BOM layers (tattoos and alphas also) are considered layers and not attachments.  You are allowed 60 of those.  There are 47 attachment points but still only 38 attachments allowed.  Personally, I've never reached the limit and I wear all kinds of things.

 I never really thought about this, or knew about the 60 layer limit - but I seem to be more likely to run out of bom layers before I run out of attachements. Currently I am starting at 6 attachments (eyes, teeth, head, body, butt deformer and the FS Bridge) nude, and then add two more to starting getting clothed (glasses and hair), but I am at 24 BOM layers (28 if you count eye texture and body skin) with just the skin addons like freckles, moles, dimples, eyebags, eyebrows and hardly no make up at all... Adding some BOM underwear, real make up and hairbases and such I might getting close to 40 so I'm probably safe there as well. 30 spots free to clothing, accessories and HUDs plus some lighting stuff for photos have seemed to be more than enough for me so far . . .

[Rowan Amore]

Favorite Wearables....all I'm sayin'.  All those HUDs with scripts being worn all the time?  Worse than high complexity, IMO.

[taisiyakarpenko]

3 minutes ago, Rowan Amore said:

Favorite Wearables....all I'm sayin'.

Totally agree - would not survive without that! Major reason my visits in the Official Viewer or BlackDragon are short, few and far between!

Edited March 13 by taisiyakarpenko

[Paul Hexem]

16 minutes ago, AyelaNewLife said:

This gives big "don't buy from corporations" energy.

Now that you say it, that's not bad advice. At least in SL.

[Blush Bravin]

It always baffles me how someone can use so many attachment points. Currently, Debi is fully dressed with mesh body, head (Lelu so 4 spots), earrings, rings (2 sets), hair, top, skirt, shoes, HUDs for body/head/AO/Attachment scanner/and hugger. She still has 23 spots available. I understand that I may dress minimally in comparison to others, but she has 23 still available.

39 minutes ago, Arielle Popstar said:

Men may not have so much of a problem seeing they have so much less make up so maybe they could give up a few of theirs and give it to the girls

Curious as to how you're using attachment spots for makeup. I use either BoM makeup or appliers made for my mesh head. None of that requires additional attachment spots.

[Love Zhaoying]

58 minutes ago, Rowan Amore said:

BOM layers (tattoos and alphas also) are considered layers and not attachments. 

Yay!

[Katherine Heartsong]

Was coming to say what @Rowan Amore mentioned. Use the Favourite Wearables and Custom AO feature in Firestorm. There's no need for dancing or walking HUDs for AOs ever in SL IMHO if you use FS.

Only time I ever have a HUD up for a minute or two only is when changing clothes in case what I'm wearing is a fat pack with colours, the "what is she wearing" HUD when I want to examine someone else's wardrobe, or the v3 hug & kiss HUD to hug someone. Then they get promptly turned off.

Other than that, never HUDs especially AO ones.

(Actually, when I am in my cat avatar from TWI I have that HUD up always so I can stretch, meow, sleep, etc because of all the custom animations and expressions.)

Edited March 13 by Katherine Heartsong

[Arielle Popstar]

3 minutes ago, Blush Bravin said:

Curious as to how you're using attachment spots for makeup. I use either BoM makeup or appliers made for my mesh head. None of that requires additional attachment spots.

Well I was using a Legacy body which is 3 attachment points by itself but tbh I was surprised when got the message that couldn't put another item on due to a lack of attaching points. I should have counted them to doublecheck and wonder now if it was an error by the alpha viewer I saw it in, especially now that a couple people have pointed out that tattoo layers etc. (for blushes) don't count towards the total. Possibly because I was using 2 shoes, L+R rings, L+R earrings, L+R soft thighs, L+R soft arms, Body modifiers (2-3). Still though it doesn't seem possible without adding the tattoo etc layers so scratching my head as to why I got the message but I did get it.

[Persephone Emerald]

Mesh body (LaraX, Belleza Freya or Jake) = 1 point  (hands & feet included)

Mesh head, teeth, eyes = 3 points

Hair = 1 point usually, max 2 points

Body and Head HUDs = 2 points

AO = 0 points usually (included in Firestorm viewer)

Wolf AO = 1 point

Wolf tail & ears = 2 points (feral or humanoid)

Max points for my avatars naked = 11

 

Dress or Top = 1 point

Pants or Skirt = 1 point

Mesh Undies or Bikini = 2 points max

Jacket or Sweater = 1 point

Belt or other = 1 point

Shoes = 2 points max

Mesh Socks = 1 point

Necklace = 1 point

Earrings = 2 points max

Bracelets = 2 points max

Hat or Hair Ornament = 1 point

RLV attachment = 1 point

Mouth attachment = 1 point

Hand attachment = 1 point

Temp Hair or Clothing HUDs = 2 points max

Max points for my avatars dressed = 31

 

Note: if your Collar is modifiable, you should be able to change the scripts in it.

Edited March 13 by Persephone Emerald

[AyelaNewLife]

1 hour ago, Blush Bravin said:

It always baffles me how someone can use so many attachment points.

I've covered the 22 I normally wear - before outfits - above.

Take this photo here. This is an 11 piece outfit; and I actually removed 3 extra parts (holster, halo wings, arm bracer) for this photo. I freed up 3 slots by removing my glasses/ring/collar, which helped reduce the number needed, but that's still 33 attachment points for this outfit. Add in two camera control HUDs, Anypose, my head and body HUDs for animations, and that's the 38 limit right there.

I'm not saying this limit is a problem on a day to day basis, because in my experience it isn't. But it exclusively causes me problems when I'm trying to be creative - and that's a problem for me.