PBR WOW!

[Zalificent Corvinus]

27 minutes ago, Modulated said:

That may change in the future...at the dev meetings a Linden discussed something called the Avatar Control System, which would be their version of rlv. Just talk but it's on the radar.

Yeah they tried "an LL alternative to RLVa" before, it's called Experience Code.

The new thing will be as lack-luster as before, and will mainly appeal to the "Art Griefers", who proclaim themselves to be "artistes" and demand the right to fubar everyone else's graphics settings in the name of their failed attempts at making "art".

Another BAD idea from LL.

Instead of using "industry standard" RLVa, they are going to try and clone it, badly, leaving out most of it's critical functionality, and producing a bug ridden mess that's not fit for purpose.

 

 

[SandorWren]

1 hour ago, Modulated said:

That may change in the future...at the dev meetings a Linden discussed something called the Avatar Control System, which would be their version of rlv. Just talk but it's on the radar.

The other major thing is the way the chat windows are setup. I MUCH prefer the way FS has it. 

[SandorWren]

54 minutes ago, Zalificent Corvinus said:

Yeah they tried "an LL alternative to RLVa" before, it's called Experience Code.

The new thing will be as lack-luster as before, and will mainly appeal to the "Art Griefers", who proclaim themselves to be "artistes" and demand the right to fubar everyone else's graphics settings in the name of their failed attempts at making "art".

Another BAD idea from LL.

Instead of using "industry standard" RLVa, they are going to try and clone it, badly, leaving out most of it's critical functionality, and producing a bug ridden mess that's not fit for purpose.

 

 

Possibly. Absolutely maybe. But the chat window structure in FS is far superior to any other in my opinion, and that also makes the official viewer, and other viewers with that type of structure useless to me.

Edited June 23 by Bagnu

[Omegaslayer]

i think my biggest issue is i don't care about having materials turned on all the time, if i could turn them off like before im sure my fps would shoot up again, but with the fact we're forced to have them on all the time its bugging things out. I went back to the old viewer and in the place i was getting 6fps on pbr shot straight up to 20 on the before pbr firestorm and got better the more i stood and waited. 

Edited June 24 by Omegaslayer

[Omegaslayer]

On 6/23/2024 at 4:06 PM, Bagnu said:

The downside of the official viewer is that it doesn't support RLVa. To some of us, that makes it totally useless, no matter how stable it is. And honestly, I rarely crash with FS if I am using an official release, and not a beta. I have been down to 2 FPS with no crash even on my older PC's. I have zero experience with MAC though.

i don't use rlv but with pbr on sims i was getting 20fps and climbing im now getting 6, i can't continue using second life at this rate when the old firestorm viewers close. Not all of us can afford high end pc's and to me it just feels like the inclusiveness we had before where even with lower end computers it was laggy but we got by nicely is gone, it's now become a place where if you don't have an amazing computer then tough luck.

Edited June 24 by Omegaslayer

[SandorWren]

48 minutes ago, Omegaslayer said:

i don't use rlv but with pbr on sims i was getting 20fps and climbing im now getting 6, i can't continue using second life at this rate when the old firestorm viewers close. Not all of us can afford high end pc's and to me it just feels like the inclusiveness we had before where even with lower end computers it was laggy but we got by nicely is gone, it's now become a place where if you don't have an amazing computer then tough luck.

I really DO agree with you. There should be multiple versions, so everyone can be in SL. I don't want any of my friends to not be able to login because their PC isn't capable. I would be pissed as hell if that happened!!! Not to mention actually hurt!!!

Edited June 24 by Bagnu

[Omegaslayer]

1 hour ago, Bagnu said:

I really DO agree with you. There should be multiple versions, so everyone can be in SL. I don't want any of my friends to not be able to login because their PC isn't capable. I would be pissed as hell if that happened!!! Not to mention actually hurt!!!

exactly there should be, i know theres people i adore talking to on second life and rping with and i would hate for them to have to leave and well i'd be forced along with them. I would adore a high end pc, i'd love to be in a situation i can afford that but i simply can't and my situation isn't going to change anytime soon. 

[Theresa Tennyson]

4 hours ago, Bagnu said:

I really DO agree with you. There should be multiple versions, so everyone can be in SL. I don't want any of my friends to not be able to login because their PC isn't capable. I would be pissed as hell if that happened!!! Not to mention actually hurt!!!

There are. There are older viewers, and a viewer written with by someone with a... let's say "strong preference"... for the old forward rendering system.

Edited June 24 by Theresa Tennyson
Apparently I had a small stroke when typing the word "preference."

[halleyyyy]

On 6/22/2024 at 6:52 PM, Ayashe Ninetails said:

Yikes, that's bad! I got similar performance on my old HP desktop with a GeForce 6600 GT. Granted, I knew better than to run around on Ultra with shadows on with that thing, but I kept it fairly decent, shadows off, ALM on, and a much higher draw distance. 

I wonder how that laptop performs now with PBR. Definitely would need to turn down some of those settings.

I did the referenced post about the M3 Max Macbook SL performance.  For what its worth, PBR hasn't hurt performance, in fact it looks like I'm getting more frames now.  I haven't tested it in any thorough way or anything, just notice I'm often at noticeably higher FPS than I used to be, and this is with every setting literally maxed.

Edited June 28 by halleyyyy

[Pixels Sideways]

So back aways on this discussion, Quartz Mole said that as long as creators use materials first then PBR effects everyone would be able to see textures rendered on PBR and non PBR viewers so not to worry.  All would be fine..

Apparently that advice seems to have been discarded as I am seeing more content being created with PBR only rendering it useless to people who don't use or can't use PBR viewers.

As I've already seen on this discussion, some people are not able to upgrade their computers so if PBR only content  proliferates, their SL experience will be greatly diminished and if viewers get deprecated and new versions with PBR are mandatory, it may shut out people who have long supported SL.

There should always be legacy viewers that can accommodate less robust older computers.  And creators might consider this when making content.

I hope Linden Lab is paying attention to this.

 

 

[AmeliaJ08]

On 6/24/2024 at 7:51 PM, Omegaslayer said:

I would adore a high end pc

I do think we need to nip this in the bud a little. You don't need a high end PC, at all.

Genuinely I have a stack of suitable graphics cards sitting on a shelf, I don't mean this in a bragging way but the fact is each one is worth less than $80 and I get them for a lot less. That's all you need, there's probably even cheaper options. You don't need high end at all, you just need something from about 2016 which is eight year old hardware at this point, not quite scrap value stuff in 2024 but not far from it either.

There's options that fit in the kind of cheap repurposed office PCs you find everywhere too and they're not expensive either, a trip to ebay with a hundred bucks is about what it takes.

There's a lot of bad info being pushed on this forum in particular about what you actually need to run PBR era SL adequately and I think people are getting the wrong impression.

 

Edited July 28 by AmeliaJ08

[Qie Niangao]

11 minutes ago, Pixels Sideways said:

So back aways on this discussion, Quartz Mole said that as long as creators use materials first then PBR effects everyone would be able to see textures rendered on PBR and non PBR viewers so not to worry.  All would be fine..

Apparently that advice seems to have been discarded as I am seeing more content being created with PBR only rendering it useless to people who don't use or can't use PBR viewers.

As I've already seen on this discussion, some people are not able to upgrade their computers so if PBR only content  proliferates, their SL experience will be greatly diminished and if viewers get deprecated and new versions with PBR are mandatory, it may shut out people who have long supported SL.

There should always be legacy viewers that can accommodate less robust older computers.  And creators might consider this when making content.

Are you sure you understand how much work you're asking creators to do for you here?

It's not impossible by any means, but it's definitely extra steps, which means creators will only be able to produce less content. For those trying to pay bills with their output, that's an extra tax.

One might think it's no big deal, then, for those of us who never charge for our work, but at least in my case that's exactly backwards: I only do it for the fun of seeing the result and sharing it with those who stumble upon it. I recently made a thing that will briefly be of use to those with or without PBR (and the separate glTF emissivity map really does make a difference), so I took the extra time to do both, but I won't be doing that very often.

[Kylie Jaxxon]

You know, I don't see any other games out there, that accommodate for people who have less than adequate computers to play.  There are a lot of hobbies, etc in RL that I would love to do, but can't due to cost.  I move on to something less expensive.

[Extrude Ragu]

37 minutes ago, Pixels Sideways said:

So back aways on this discussion, Quartz Mole said that as long as creators use materials first then PBR effects everyone would be able to see textures rendered on PBR and non PBR viewers so not to worry.  All would be fine..

Apparently that advice seems to have been discarded as I am seeing more content being created with PBR only rendering it useless to people who don't use or can't use PBR viewers.

This was to enable a transition period. I agree that it is early to start going PBR only for sold goods, given Firestorm has only had a PBR viewer out for just over a month, although that is largely a creators choice.

Keep in mind that the legacy textures you are used to are actually quite time and resource intensive to create and by resource intensive I mean having a computer sat unusable with 99% CPU/GPU usage for sometimes hours when creators are doing texture sets, followed by all the photoshop work that comes with fixing blinn phong bakes and you begin to understand why a lot of creators are eager to stop supporting it ASAP.

[SandorWren]

1 hour ago, Extrude Ragu said:

This was to enable a transition period. I agree that it is early to start going PBR only for sold goods, given Firestorm has only had a PBR viewer out for just over a month, although that is largely a creators choice.

Keep in mind that the legacy textures you are used to are actually quite time and resource intensive to create and by resource intensive I mean having a computer sat unusable with 99% CPU/GPU usage for sometimes hours when creators are doing texture sets, followed by all the photoshop work that comes with fixing blinn phong bakes and you begin to understand why a lot of creators are eager to stop supporting it ASAP.

I have created a few things for SL. Unfortunately, PBR can't match raytraced baked textures (even though I despise baked shadows). 2K textures are a bigger help, since a single texture can take the place of four in some situations. It's $L10 more expensive to upload though than four 1024 textures, but much easier to deal with on the 3D modelling side (for me anyways).

[Flea Yatsenko]

1 hour ago, Qie Niangao said:

Are you sure you understand how much work you're asking creators to do for you here?

It's not impossible by any means, but it's definitely extra steps, which means creators will only be able to produce less content. For those trying to pay bills with their output, that's an extra tax.

One might think it's no big deal, then, for those of us who never charge for our work, but at least in my case that's exactly backwards: I only do it for the fun of seeing the result and sharing it with those who stumble upon it. I recently made a thing that will briefly be of use to those with or without PBR (and the separate glTF emissivity map really does make a difference), so I took the extra time to do both, but I won't be doing that very often.

Just use the base color map as the fallback. Anyone who can't run PBR wasn't running ALM and they weren't looking at a very pretty SL to begin with. They aren't in it for the graphics, they're there because of SL. And some colors and metals being totally wrong because you're using a base color is a million times better for people who can't run PBR than white and grey untextured mesh. I'm really surprised at creators who aren't supporting legacy textures. Seems like a way to earn a lot of 1 star reviews and tank your products.

[Qie Niangao]

47 minutes ago, Flea Yatsenko said:

Just use the base color map as the fallback.

If I could have gotten away with that, I might have, but not all surfaces can just "look good enough" and still convey the information the texture was intended to convey. (This is a fancy map with specular/metallic features that help "read" water and rails, and partial emissivity that had to be coded into the Blinn-Phong alpha channel which 1) is a pain although I've done it numerous times before, and 2) was only possible because the whole texture was to be fully opaque.)

Actually, no. I "might have" but I wouldn't. Screw 'em. I'll only bother when it's critical to the situation, as in this case. Otherwise, meh. They can look somewhere else until they get an appropriate machine. It's not as if they're paying me anything.

[Cube Republic]

4 hours ago, Flea Yatsenko said:

Just use the base color map as the fallback. Anyone who can't run PBR wasn't running ALM and they weren't looking at a very pretty SL to begin with. They aren't in it for the graphics, they're there because of SL. And some colors and metals being totally wrong because you're using a base color is a million times better for people who can't run PBR than white and grey untextured mesh. I'm really surprised at creators who aren't supporting legacy textures. Seems like a way to earn a lot of 1 star reviews and tank your products.

Multiply the AO over it in your graphics app of choice, that way you'll have fake direction independent shading on your diffuse. I can't remember which channel, maybe green from your normal map can be set to soft light at a low opacity for fake highlights. 

[Scylla Rhiadra]

3 hours ago, Qie Niangao said:

Actually, no. I "might have" but I wouldn't. Screw 'em. I'll only bother when it's critical to the situation, as in this case. Otherwise, meh. They can look somewhere else until they get an appropriate machine. It's not as if they're paying me anything.

Getting a little hard ass there, Qie!

Actually, I do get it, and I agree that every creator has to make that decision for themselves. And I'm certainly not going to fault someone who chooses not to -- creators in SL receive scanty compensation for their hard work as is, and dumping extra on them is asking too much.

That said . . . I bought a new dress the other day. It's textured for PBR (and the creator did a lovely job of it), but it also includes backup legacy texturing.

As one of the main reasons I buy dresses like this is to wear them on Sunday nights when I go dancing, there is a very good chance I'd NOT have purchased the dress (which I bought in two separate copies, for two different bodies) did it not have the backup texturing, for the simple reason that, to somewhere between one quarter and about one half of the others at this club I'd be appearing in a textureless garment. And yes, actually, because this club on Sunday nights is a kind of community, that DOES matter to me.

So, again, I do get it. I have enough experience producing textures and maps myself to know how much work it can be (especially for garments!). But for some creators, there may still be good financial reasons to create BP textures for the goods they're selling. At least for a while yet.

Edited July 28 by Scylla Rhiadra

[Scylla Rhiadra]

7 hours ago, Pixels Sideways said:

Apparently that advice seems to have been discarded as I am seeing more content being created with PBR only rendering it useless to people who don't use or can't use PBR viewers.

Then don't buy it!

I'm not trying to be a smart ass, and I say that without animosity to either you or to the creators in question (see my post right above), but every creator, and every consumer, is going to have to make decisions based on their perception of the repercussions.

For the moment, I am not buying PBR-mapped goods that don't have backup legacy texturing, because I know that a great many of my friends, visitors to my parcel, etc., aren't yet using a PBR viewer. That will change, likely within a year or less, and my buying habits will change accordingly.

Similarly, creators who are not providing backup textures for new goods will notice a change in the buying habits of their customers based on that decision (assuming that they've made it clear to customers that the item can only be seen properly in a PBR viewer). Or they won't see any change. Either way, the decisions they make will be guided by consequences.

[Scylla Rhiadra]

7 hours ago, AmeliaJ08 said:

Genuinely I have a stack of suitable graphics cards sitting on a shelf, I don't mean this in a bragging way but the fact is each one is worth less than $80 and I get them for a lot less. That's all you need, there's probably even cheaper options. You don't need high end at all, you just need something from about 2016 which is eight year old hardware at this point, not quite scrap value stuff in 2024 but not far from it either.

There's options that fit in the kind of cheap repurposed office PCs you find everywhere too and they're not expensive either, a trip to ebay with a hundred bucks is about what it takes.

You do realize that a great many of us -- probably a majority -- have almost never actually seen the inside of a computer, yet alone have the foggiest idea how to change a GPU ourselves? I am, I think, a not unintelligent woman with a fair amount of education, but I wouldn't know a GPU from a motherboard from a modem if it came up and introduced itself to me.*

And additionally I wouldn't know what to buy, given the possible compatibility issues (whether a particular setup can support the extra power that might be required, whether it literally fits within the case, etc.).

Yes, I suppose I could run out and buy a set of computer tools (cuz, oddly, mine seem to have gone missing!), and watch a few dozen YouTube videos on self-installing hardware I know next to nothing about into a complicated electronic mechanism that I'm literally seeing for the first time when I open the case.

I mean, really, what could go wrong!!?!?

But this is, at the moment, my only fully functional computer, and, what's more, it's my work computer. I'm not sure I want to take that risk, nor would I counsel others to take it.

* I am using first person here for rhetorical purposes: I don't need to do any of this myself, as my computer is fine.

Edited July 28 by Scylla Rhiadra
grammar

[Scylla Rhiadra]

So, on an entirely different tack, and more in keeping with perhaps the actual theme of the OP . . .

. . . I've been thinking about how I might be able to use PBR maps to enhance my in-world 2D images. The "standard" for SL art, at the moment, is simply throwing a 1024x1024 texture onto a prim or, if we get fancy, a mesh "canvas," turning on full bright (which I hate), and making it as large as the wall will permit. I think it's an awful way to experience art (full bright in particular), because it divorces it entirely from the context of the 3D environment. It might just as well be on Flickr, where you'd at least get better resolutions.

So, one simple thing I've never tried (and could have, using even Blinn-Phong maps) is to add a normal map that would provide a bit texturing. Most obviously it could use a canvas texture, or maybe even a normal constructed from paint strokes. And it really should have a specular / rough map, as RL canvasses (whether photographic prints or paint) do have some degree of shine.

But . . . what if I were to add an emissive map to produce brightness selectively in a pic? Or even a metallic map for parts of a pic? How might I do that in ways that would produce particular visual effects?

Not something I'll do yet, I think (in large measure because it wouldn't be visible to many people yet), but I may start playing with it to see if there is some potential for interesting effects.

Edited July 28 by Scylla Rhiadra
Missing words

[Pixels Sideways]

11 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

Then don't buy it!

I'm not trying to be a smart ass, and I say that without animosity to either you or to the creators in question (see my post right above), but every creator, and every consumer, is going to have to make decisions based on their perception of the repercussions.

For the moment, I am not buying PBR-mapped goods that don't have backup legacy texturing, because I know that a great many of my friends, visitors to my parcel, etc., aren't yet using a PBR viewer. That will change, likely within a year or less, and my buying habits will change accordingly.

Similarly, creators who are not providing backup textures for new goods will notice a change in the buying habits of their customers based on that decision (assuming that they've made it clear to customers that the item can only be seen properly in a PBR viewer). Or they won't see any change. Either way, the decisions they make will be guided by consequences.

Why would I buy something I can't see?

Just pointing out that as was noted earlier in the topic by Quartz Mole, objects that have both materials & PBR can be viewed by both PBR and non PBR viewers so pretty much everyone in SL can see them.

Other people on this topic have brought this issue up as well.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Scylla Rhiadra]

Just now, Pixels Sideways said:

Why would I buy something I can't see?

Just pointing out that as was noted earlier in the topic by Quartz Mole, objects that have both materials & PBR can be viewed by both PBR and non PBR viewers so pretty much everyone in SL can see them.

Other people on this topic have brought this issue up as well.

Agreed. Exactly.

Back when PBR was first introduced in the LL viewer, I bought an Art Deco lamp that was advertised as PBR, but did not make it clear that it did not have backup textures. I was using, on occasion, the LL viewer at that point, and also testing the FS PBR Alpha, so I could see, when I wanted to, what it was supposed to look like, but my day-to-day viewer was still the pre-PBR FS one. There was zero point in putting out the lamp because 90% of the time it would appear to me as untextured.

And I still won't put it out, even though I am now 100% of the time on a PBR viewer, because many of my guests won't be able to see it.

The point I was really making, in a sideways kind of way, is that if creators discover that their sales are slow for items that are PBR-only, they might decide it is actually financially worth their while to add backup textures. Or they might not. But this is one way in which you, as a consumer, can "vote."

[Zalificent Corvinus]

10 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

So, one simple thing I've never tried (and could have, using even Blinn-Phong maps) is to add a normal map that would provide a bit texturing. Most obviously it could use a canvas texture,

https://marketplace.secondlife.com/p/JU-Canvas-White-Fabric-3D-Textures-Full-Perm/19869422

 

10 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

But . . . what I added an emissive map to produce brightness selectively in a pic? Or even a metallic map?

Just put a projector lamp on the wall above the frame, pointing down and back towards the canvas.