PBR WOW!

[Scylla Rhiadra]

1 minute ago, Sam Bellisserian said:

Totally agree.  I also prefer the first one. It just look more elegant like a real leather couch should look like. The second one looks more like a cheap imitation leather couch for those that can't afford the real thing.

I know of a clothing designer where I love the look of their clothes but it's all the shiny latex material so I won't buy it. 

I don't know anything about texturing so I am wondering if PBR can be turned off like full bright or if it's built in?

If it's mod, you should be able to adjust the shininess. But it can't be "turned off," no.

[Charlotte Bartlett]

2 minutes ago, Sam Bellisserian said:

Totally agree.  I also prefer the first one. It just look more elegant like a real leather couch should look like. The second one looks more like a cheap imitation leather couch for those that can't afford the real thing.

I know of a clothing designer where I love the look of their clothes but it's all the shiny latex material so I won't buy it. 

I don't know anything about texturing so I am wondering if PBR can be turned off like full bright or if it's built in?

It’s built in if a creator has applied PBR materials.  But you could apply your own perfectly non shiny leather material now to a couch that before would have required you to have the UVMap and bake it.  (Sort of).

I will create proper PBR leather material this week and show a screenshot.  Everybody will have different taste but at least with PBR you can update mod items to your own taste very easily. 

[Rowan Amore]

25 minutes ago, Sam Bellisserian said:

Totally agree.  I also prefer the first one. It just look more elegant like a real leather couch should look like. The second one looks more like a cheap imitation leather couch for those that can't afford the real thing.

I know of a clothing designer where I love the look of their clothes but it's all the shiny latex material so I won't buy it. 

I don't know anything about texturing so I am wondering if PBR can be turned off like full bright or if it's built in?

@Rowan Amore is the top photo a couch sold in SL? I'd love to get it.

There is a full perm version that quite a few stores seem to use.  The photos are of RL couches.  My sister had a set like the bottom and it was cold and slippery.  No one wanted to sit on it!

ETA..it's called a Chesterfield couch and there are tons on the MP.  The one I have is older and from Dictatorship IIRC.

Edited December 30, 2023 by Rowan Amore

[Scylla Rhiadra]

22 minutes ago, Sam Bellisserian said:

I don't know anything about texturing so I am wondering if PBR can be turned off like full bright or if it's built in?

I just dived onto the SL viewer to take these. This is using a CC PBR leather texture I uploaded, and applied to a simple prim sphere, under the new Midday setting.

First is with a "low" metallic setting. You can see where I set it off to the left.

Second is the same texture, EEP settings, etc., but with the metallic set very high.

Again, if you look to the Materials editing dialog to the left, under "Metallic-Roughness," you can see that I've set the "Metallic Factor" to 0.990.

(If someone knows that I'm doing this incorrectly, btw, please correct me!)

(Damn it, I'm supposed to have flounced. Why am I here?)

[SpiritSparrow Skydancer]

3 hours ago, Charlotte Bartlett said:

If this helps (and I just uploaded this material so it's rough and not prime time so just for the purpose of a rough demonstration. I quickly uploaded both legacy and PBR type materials for this (legacy would need some work)).

Same basic environment used in each for ease and same model. The 1 and 2 have additional HDRI and Reflection Probe Ambiance set in the EEP in the LL Viewer.

1. PBR Materials on LL PBR Viewer - >  https://gyazo.com/9cef5a1681c72d2f8fad816d97ace8f2

2. Legacy Material on LL PBR Viewer - > https://gyazo.com/15032b5eaf0e96d126f1853fe41e36e3

3. Legacy Material on Firestorm Legacy Viewer - >  https://gyazo.com/02cd218ca354abff0e43ee9ab3031f28

Legacy has a base, normal and specular included - on this one using these settings I would redo legacy textures if moving this item to PBR too.

Those examples are wonderful in showing the differences. I have a similar couch like that in rl. But it’s brown. lol no way is it that shiny!  Anyway. It seems to my untrained eyes that the difference is a light source? 

[Jenna Huntsman]

32 minutes ago, Sam Bellisserian said:

I don't know anything about texturing so I am wondering if PBR can be turned off like full bright or if it's built in?

No - that would assume that the PBR material is the same as the Blinn-Phong materials, which it isn't (there's a lot of major technical reasons, but they aren't really compatible)

 

10 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

Again, if you look to the Materials editing dialog to the left, under "Metallic-Roughness," you can see that I've set the "Metallic Factor" to 0.990.

The factors are essentially a multiplier to the Metallic-Roughness map - so if your metalness channel is black (i.e. 0,0,0), a metallic factor of 1 will look the same as a metallic factor of 0. (because, 1x0 is 0, and 0x0 is 0). If the channel is white (255,255,255), then 1x255 is 255, if you see what I mean. A white channel with a factor of 0.5 would result in 128,128,128 (0.5x255)

[Chic Aeon]

36 minutes ago, Charlotte Bartlett said:

It’s built in if a creator has applied PBR materials.  But you could apply your own perfectly non shiny leather material now to a couch that before would have required you to have the UVMap and bake it.  (Sort of).

I will create proper PBR leather material this week and show a screenshot.  Everybody will have different taste but at least with PBR you can update mod items to your own taste very easily. 

Wanted to add to the "sort of" in parentheses.  

There is plenty of mod items out there that it will NOT work well with. It depends totally on how it was mapped (both "well" and "method".  So of course do NOT try and mod a no copy item unless you are willing to lose it :D.

My tables of the other day are a good example of when things WOULD work. 

This table was mapped to take linear textures AND was mapped so that all the texture islands were the same in relation to their pattern repeats per size.  There is plenty of mesh out there that does NOT do this.  So depending on how the mesh was crafted you can adapt -- or not.  :D.  

 

[Scylla Rhiadra]

7 minutes ago, Jenna Huntsman said:

The factors are essentially a multiplier to the Metallic-Roughness map - so if your metalness channel is black (i.e. 0,0,0), a metallic factor of 1 will look the same as a metallic factor of 0. (because, 1x0 is 0, and 0x0 is 0). If the channel is white (255,255,255), then 1x255 is 255, if you see what I mean. A white channel with a factor of 0.5 would result in 128,128,128 (0.5x255)

Great.

Math.

😒

[Extrude Ragu]

42 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

I just dived onto the SL viewer to take these. This is using a CC PBR leather texture I uploaded, and applied to a simple prim sphere, under the new Midday setting.

First is with a "low" metallic setting. You can see where I set it off to the left.

The ORM texture looks to be packed wrong.

(Red) Occlusion (Green) Roughness (Blue) Metalness

Blue channel should be basically 0 here (because leather isn't metal at all), so the texture shouldn't have that blue tint, likewise should be more pinkish red as occlusion channel should be a value close to 1 (white)

Here's an example of a leather texture I've packed:-

Note the color of the ORM map is more like a bright pink.

Also, if your leather texture came with a Glossiness map, instead of a roughness map, you need to invert it, because roughness is the inverse of glossiness.

What that looks like applied to a mesh in-world

Edited December 31, 2023 by Extrude Ragu

[Charlotte Bartlett]

22 minutes ago, Chic Aeon said:

Wanted to add to the "sort of" in parentheses.  

There is plenty of mod items out there that it will NOT work well with. It depends totally on how it was mapped (both "well" and "method".  So of course do NOT try and mod a no copy item unless you are willing to lose it :D.

My tables of the other day are a good example of when things WOULD work. 

This table was mapped to take linear textures AND was mapped so that all the texture islands were the same in relation to their pattern repeats per size.  There is plenty of mesh out there that does NOT do this.  So depending on how the mesh was crafted you can adapt -- or not.  :D.  

 

That’s how I do mine too including houses.  I would assume any decent creator would too and if they don’t boo!

[Love Zhaoying]

1 hour ago, Rowan Amore said:

I guess it all depends on what one prefers a leather couch to look like.  I don't care for the shiny leather ones in real life so I dislike those that look that way in SL.

Two leather couches.  The first is what I prefer.  A more weathered/worn look.  The second, not so much.  At least we don't have to worry about slippery in SL!  😅

It kind of reminds me of when some creators make every single clothing item looks like silk/satin/latex.  It's going to be over done and done to death.

The dark one being shinier makes sense as the dark would reflect light easier.

I used to look at leather couches since they are "good with dogs" but went with "no couch at all" instead.

ETA: I see now where you posted these are photos of RL couches. That explains why they look so "real"! lol!

Edited December 31, 2023 by Love Zhaoying

[Love Zhaoying]

24 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

Great.

Math.

😒

It's just like English, but numbers instead of words. Both use "rules".

You can do it!

 

[Zalificent Corvinus]

3 hours ago, Love Zhaoying said:

Spelling it out for dumb people like me, isn't adding glTF supposed to give us some theoretical compatibility with the standard used by other games, graphics engines, etc. and allow for a general higher quality and more consistent workflow supported various industry graphics creation tools..?

 

Yes and No.

See, SL doesn't USE other game engines, so it has exactly ZERO need to be compatible with them. None.

The only benefits with the current PBR system in SL, are that it makes it SLIGHTLY easier for people who are used to creating stuff in other game engines to make stuff for SL using "Substance Painter".

As Charlotte pointed out re glass bulbs, the reality is slightly different, lots of messing and switching back and forth.

This is because SL's PBR isn't "real standard PBR", it doesn't comply with the "pure" standard for ACES tone mapping, doesn't have all the bells and whistles of other PBR engines, so there's still a learning curve, and a lot of messing about repeatedly trying different uploads on the beta grid until it "sort of looks more or less ok-ish".

 

Basically this is an exercise in compatibility with things we don't need to be compatible with, as an excuse to make life easier for gamerz used to making stuff for Useless Engine (tm) Build-A0-First-Person-Shooter-Kit based games.

 

Since LL PBR is a botched attempt at a cut down version of the most basic spec for PBR, the "graphical improvements" are currently minimal.

And don't say "but but mirrors" as mirrors do not in fact need PBR at all to work, there have been games with mirror reflections some years before PBR was showcased at Siggraph 2010.

 

[Jenna Huntsman]

3 minutes ago, Zalificent Corvinus said:

This is because SL's PBR isn't "real standard PBR", it doesn't comply with the "pure" standard for ACES tone mapping,

Strictly speaking, that's because the tonemapping isn't a hard requirement: to that point, the glTF spec doesn't have any guidance on it - But, in reality, tonemapping is required because you can't tell users to go out and buy a top-end HDR reference monitor able to display an insane dynamic range, so tonemapping is used to map colors back into SDR space (while preserving the illusion of higher dynamic range).

Because it's not standardized, tonemapping can be done in whichever way you like, so long as there's a tonemapper present. For example, the Alchemy viewer implements a couple of different tonemapper options to choose from beyond just modified ACES.

6 minutes ago, Zalificent Corvinus said:

this is an exercise in compatibility with things

This is true - the glTF project is mostly about interoperability with other platforms (pretty much every major game engine, and content creation tool), as SL is problematic for creators as there's just no tools that create content in the way SL expects any more.

7 minutes ago, Zalificent Corvinus said:

Since LL PBR is a botched attempt at a cut down version of the most basic spec for PBR

This isn't really true, to that point, the actual PBR shaders are a straight OpenGL conversion of this reference model:

https://github.com/SaschaWillems/Vulkan-glTF-PBR

(This isn't really a half-measure either, as it removes any guesswork or questions of 'is this right?' for how PBR materials are rendered - it also accelerates the Vulkan port of the viewer, as this code is already available for Vulkan!)

The reason why SL's PBR doesn't include every bell-and-whistle available to us is that LL's goal is compatibility with the core glTF 2.0 spec, excluding extensions (Extensions may be added to SL at a later date, but they aren't included in the main glTF project)

The core spec can be found here:

https://registry.khronos.org/glTF/specs/2.0/glTF-2.0.html

And to see what could be supported, see all of the ratified extensions here:

https://github.com/KhronosGroup/glTF/blob/main/extensions/README.md

[Extrude Ragu]

 

I uploaded some more materials to beta grid just because

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Extrude Ragu]

[Zalificent Corvinus]

2 minutes ago, Jenna Huntsman said:

Extensions may be added to SL at a later date

How often have we heard "blah blah may be added at a later date" when they actually meant ""we have finished with this fad shiny now, moving on, we will never come back to fix it up, ever".

It's like the extension Charlotte was talking of, for rendering better glass. Maybe the lab will accept a jira to add that, in a year or three, and maybe they will take less than 3 years to put it in once its accepted, and maybe it wont be broken, and take a year and a half to fix.

 

Ever heard the phrase "If wishes were dishes, we'd all eat like kings", that's what the extension list is right now, wishing for extra shiny, when they haven't even gotten the base system working right.

[Zalificent Corvinus]

4 minutes ago, Extrude Ragu said:

I uploaded some more materials to beta grid just because

Nice...

Shame that NONE of them are doing anything you couldn't have done just as easily with Blinn-Phong, excapt the blueish grey metal in the last pic in the 2nd post, and that could be faked in B-P with a manually set spec tint colour.

 

Sorry, NO "PBR Wow!" there.

 

[Extrude Ragu]

5 minutes ago, Zalificent Corvinus said:

Nice...

Shame that NONE of them are doing anything you couldn't have done just as easily with Blinn-Phong, excapt the blueish grey metal in the last pic in the 2nd post, and that could be faked in B-P with a manually set spec tint colour.

 

Sorry, NO "PBR Wow!" there.

 

OK then, recreate that scene in Blinn Phong. I dare you 😉

[Zalificent Corvinus]

38 minutes ago, Extrude Ragu said:

OK then, recreate that scene in Blinn Phong. I dare you 😉

Go here, you'll find a whole bunch of 1024 res materials packs, with diffuse, normal maps and specular maps, that do wood, stone, and brick just as well as those PBR's you used.

 

https://marketplace.secondlife.com/stores/169036

 

[Extrude Ragu]

4 minutes ago, Zalificent Corvinus said:

Go here, you'll find a whole bunch of 1024 res materials packs, with diffuse, normal maps and specular maps, that do wood, stone, and brick just as well as those PBR's you used.

 

https://marketplace.secondlife.com/stores/169036

 

If you're so confident you can recreate the materials in the scene with these, show us. Don't forget to use the old forward renderer. Show the materials outdoors and indoors also, and I'll happily do the same.

[Istelathis]

I've heard this tune before

/me closes shutters and jumps in cast iron tub

 

Edited December 31, 2023 by Istelathis

[Luna Bliss]

1 hour ago, Extrude Ragu said:

1 hour ago, Zalificent Corvinus said:

Go here, you'll find a whole bunch of 1024 res materials packs, with diffuse, normal maps and specular maps, that do wood, stone, and brick just as well as those PBR's you used.

 

https://marketplace.secondlife.com/stores/169036

 

Expand  

If you're so confident you can recreate the materials in the scene with these, show us. Don't forget to use the old forward renderer. Show the materials outdoors and indoors also, and I'll happily do the same.

@Zalificent Corvinus, if you are able to do it I will send you this new Blender creation -----

[LipstickAndDreams]

1 hour ago, Istelathis said:

I've heard this tune before

/me closes shutters and jumps in cast iron tub

 

I have 3 coffins ready.

 

[Scylla Rhiadra]

4 hours ago, Extrude Ragu said:

The ORM texture looks to be packed wrong.

Yeah. I don't know what I'm doing wrong here though.

Here are the maps that the download from the online site gives me, along with how I'm inputting them into the GLTF Packer: "Diffuse" > Base Color, "AO" > Occlusion, "Rough" > Roughness, Metallic left empty, "Normal" > "Normal," and Emission left empty.

And here are the three maps I'm getting (aside from the actual GLTF file):

I'm not understanding where the blue in the ORM is coming from. Any sense of what I'm doing wrong here? It's not coming from the Normal file, is it? Should I not be adding that???