PBR WOW!

[Rowan Amore]

7 minutes ago, Chic Aeon said:

but it is the "shared experience" thing

Turning it off wouldn't have anything to do with shared experience.  If that were the case, FS wouldn't have derender.  It means not adding something to the viewer that will affect how OTHERS see you or items.   Turning off ALM would only effect how I, personally, saw things in SL. 

[AmeliaJ08]

16 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

I second that. I was beginning to worry my new PC was a lemon, but seems the way content rezzes has changed in a recent update.

It certainly has, camming around nearly always means that when I return my view to myself the textures around me blur for a number of seconds before reloading. They're either being pushed to the depths of cache for some reason (but the delay still seems too long given how fast NVME cache is) or entirely forgotten and re-downloaded from scratch.

[SandorWren]

2 hours ago, Paul Hexem said:

That's another problem with the "It's not a game!" mentality, yeah.

LL's gotta put the hardware requirements up front just like games do, and keep the info updated. The current hardware requirements on their page are a giant lie by omission.

Why would the "it's not a game" mentality affect the technology behind it? The medium is NOT the message (sorry Marshall Mcluhan).

[Paul Hexem]

15 minutes ago, Bagnu said:

Why would the "it's not a game" mentality affect the technology behind it? The medium is NOT the message (sorry Marshall Mcluhan).

Because it's the same technology and requires much of the same practices? Did you not read anything I've been writing?

[SandorWren]

1 hour ago, Chic Aeon said:

We lobbied for that with EEP and FS but it is the "shared experience" thing and FS of course wants to be kept on the "good guys" list.  IF objects are mod -- even if they are PBR it looks like you can negate the issues --- THIS HOWEVER only if the creator has done a good job and not relied "too much" on PBR.   I basically did that in Sansar with good success.

 

MEANWHLE a question. I m not on the Linden viewer or any PBR viewer, yet lately even in places with NO PBR (like my sim) things are loading more slowly. I was even a cloud the other day and that is unheard of.  So it seems like the new rendering system is hurting the old so far as loading goes.  My sim and mostly all my created objects and still there are issue.   Ideas?

We can still change the EEP to whatever we want though. We aren't forced to used shared settings.

I totally agree with you that things are loading more slowly.  I have no idea if it's the rendering system or not. I would have thought that rendering is directly related to our personal hardware, and somehow more data is being transmitted, or the servers are slower. No clue on this one.

[Luna Bliss]

3 minutes ago, Paul Hexem said:

23 minutes ago, Bagnu said:

Why would the "it's not a game" mentality affect the technology behind it? The medium is NOT the message (sorry Marshall Mcluhan).

Because it's the same technology and requires much of the same practices? Did you not read anything I've been writing?

Some people name things according to what they experience in an environment, and not the nuts and bolts related to how it's created.  Both people are right, and both people are wrong when arguing about whether SL is a game.

[Chic Aeon]

2 minutes ago, Bagnu said:

We can still change the EEP to whatever we want though. We aren't forced to used shared settings.

Yes, but many of us wanted to KEEP WINDLIGHT and have an option and for awhile some 3rd parties were going in that direction. Not sure what happened as I only use FS except for testing now and then with the (painful) Linden viewer.    

I have adapted to EEP and it IS nice to be able to change your small parcel land settings to what you want BUT as you say we could do that personally all along .  Long ago when Windlight was new we were able to give others our WL settings inworld so that they could see things as we wanted them to.  That died but I am not sure why.   

[SandorWren]

3 minutes ago, Paul Hexem said:

Because it's the same technology and requires much of the same practices? Did you not read anything I've been writing?

I haven't been reading what you've been writing. I was simply reacting to your "it's not a game" comment. 

[SandorWren]

1 minute ago, Chic Aeon said:

Yes, but many of us wanted to KEEP WINDLIGHT and have an option and for awhile some 3rd parties were going in that direction. Not sure what happened as I only use FS except for testing now and then with the (painful) Linden viewer.    

I have adapted to EEP and it IS nice to be able to change your small parcel land settings to what you want BUT as you say we could do that personally all along .  Long ago when Windlight was new we were able to give others our WL settings inworld so that they could see things as we wanted them to.  That died but I am not sure why.   

I'm not disagreeing with you. Options are always good. I personally prefer though, that if I go somewhere, I see the environment as the creator intended. If I want to change that for some reason, I can. 

I only use FS as well.

[Luna Bliss]

1 minute ago, Bagnu said:

if I go somewhere, I see the environment as the creator intended

I love you...lol.

[Rowan Amore]

8 minutes ago, Chic Aeon said:

Long ago when Windlight was new we were able to give others our WL settings inworld so that they could see things as we wanted them to.  That died but I am not sure why. 

You can give people your EEP settings.  I've passed a few people the EEP asset that I use.  It's actually much easier with EEP to give others your lighting options being as it's a item in your new settings folder.

[SandorWren]

12 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

Some people name things according to what they experience in an environment, and not the nuts and bolts related to how it's created.  Both people are right, and both people are wrong when arguing about whether SL is a game.

I agree. It's not really possible argue about that, because SL is an individual experience. I don't care how my RL phone is created. I care about the conversations I have on it. 

[Chic Aeon]

50 minutes ago, Rowan Amore said:

You can give people your EEP settings.  I've passed a few people the EEP asset that I use.  It's actually much easier with EEP to give others your lighting options being as it's a item in your new settings folder.

Know that and made many EEP gifts. What I was saying that for awhile Windlight worked as EEP does now so far as sharing and then LL blocked that. 

[Zalificent Corvinus]

2 hours ago, Chic Aeon said:

MEANWHLE a question. I m not on the Linden viewer or any PBR viewer, yet lately even in places with NO PBR (like my sim) things are loading more slowly. I was even a cloud the other day and that is unheard of.  So it seems like the new rendering system is hurting the old so far as loading goes.  My sim and mostly all my created objects and still there are issue.   Ideas?

It's the server side support for PBR.

Your viewer rezzes stuff in, when it gets UDP packets from the server telling it that stuff is there to be rendered, and what that stuff is, and what textures are on it, etc.

So.

Pre PBR.

"Attention viewer, your user can see

object 1, uuid blah-blah-blah-blah textured with texture 1 uuid blah-blah-blah-blah

object 2, uuid blah-blah-blah-blah textured with texture 2, uuid blah-blah-blah-blah"

 

ALM added UDP packets for normal maps, and specular maps and gloss/env settings

PBR adds more packets, for all the PBR maps and settings.

Your viewer can only cope with so many UDP packets at a time, on a non PBR viewer, the PBR packet spam manifests as "packet-loss" as the viewer thinks its the usual packets but corrupted by bad connection, 

In a PBR viewer in a non PBR scene, it is too busy reading 

"attention viewer metalness map not found, roughness map not found, emissive map not found, pretentiousness map not found overkludge map not found"

 

To read the next ACTUAL useful non PBR data.

That's why rezzing will slow down, your PBR viewer is dealing with all the "not founds" on the first Non-PBR object, so dealing with the non-PBR packets on object 2 have to wait.

 

[Love Zhaoying]

1 minute ago, Zalificent Corvinus said:

It's the server side support for PBR.

Your viewer rezzes stuff in, when it gets UDP packets from the server telling it that stuff is there to be rendered, and what that stuff is, and what textures are on it, etc.

So.

Pre PBR.

"Attention viewer, your user can see

object 1, uuid blah-blah-blah-blah textured with texture 1 uuid blah-blah-blah-blah

object 2, uuid blah-blah-blah-blah textured with texture 2, uuid blah-blah-blah-blah"

 

ALM added UDP packets for normal maps, and specular maps and gloss/env settings

PBR adds more packets, for all the PBR maps and settings.

Your viewer can only cope with so many UDP packets at a time, on a non PBR viewer, the PBR packet spam manifests as "packet-loss" as the viewer thinks its the usual packets but corrupted by bad connection, 

In a PBR viewer in a non PBR scene, it is too busy reading 

"attention viewer metalness map not found, roughness map not found, emissive map not found, pretentiousness map not found overkludge map not found"

 

To read the next ACTUAL useful non PBR data.

That's why rezzing will slow down, your PBR viewer is dealing with all the "not founds" on the first Non-PBR object, so dealing with the non-PBR packets on object 2 have to wait.

 

* sniffs all your packets * 

* sneezes! *

 

[Chic Aeon]

53 minutes ago, Bagnu said:

I'm not disagreeing with you. Options are always good. I personally prefer though, that if I go somewhere, I see the environment as the creator intended. If I want to change that for some reason, I can. 

I only use FS as well.

LOL I guess MY problem is that I like to SEE things and so many places including stores have their lighting (whether WL or EEP)  so dark and often gloomy that you can't see anything at all.  This is really odd for some events (in the past anywhere) where shoppers had to change their lighting in order to shop. Bizarre.   In SANSAR the lighting was set by the creator and there was no way to override.   This seemed to work fairly well with the PBR.  

 

BUT it appears that there are going to be some big issue for awhile. Everyone should brush up on their EEP personal settings if they don't use them often LOL.  Oh well.  

[Love Zhaoying]

2 minutes ago, Chic Aeon said:

LOL I guess MY problem is that I like to SEE things and so many places including stores have their lighting (whether WL or EEP)  so dark and often gloomy that you can't see anything at all. 

This is why I've mostly ever used "Mid-day" settings!  

[Chic Aeon]

4 minutes ago, Zalificent Corvinus said:

It's the server side support for PBR.

Your viewer rezzes stuff in, when it gets UDP packets from the server telling it that stuff is there to be rendered, and what that stuff is, and what textures are on it, etc.

So.

Pre PBR.

"Attention viewer, your user can see

object 1, uuid blah-blah-blah-blah textured with texture 1 uuid blah-blah-blah-blah

object 2, uuid blah-blah-blah-blah textured with texture 2, uuid blah-blah-blah-blah"

 

ALM added UDP packets for normal maps, and specular maps and gloss/env settings

PBR adds more packets, for all the PBR maps and settings.

Your viewer can only cope with so many UDP packets at a time, on a non PBR viewer, the PBR packet spam manifests as "packet-loss" as the viewer thinks its the usual packets but corrupted by bad connection, 

In a PBR viewer in a non PBR scene, it is too busy reading 

"attention viewer metalness map not found, roughness map not found, emissive map not found, pretentiousness map not found overkludge map not found"

 

To read the next ACTUAL useful non PBR data.

That's why rezzing will slow down, your PBR viewer is dealing with all the "not founds" on the first Non-PBR object, so dealing with the non-PBR packets on object 2 have to wait.

 

OK but I am still a bit lost. I understand how the server settings can (and do) change things with the PBR viewer but I did a test (must have mentioned this before) for a blog post and my FS viewer did just fine at Winter wonderland but was horrible with the Linden PBR viewer.    

SOME DAYS LATER ---- i noted that my FIRESTORM viewer was having a big problem loading things and indeed I even ended up as a cloud once.  "I" haven't made any changes although there was a Windows update.  I am thinking it was NOT the Win update doing the slow loading thing.  

 

 

[Paul Hexem]

1 hour ago, Luna Bliss said:

Some people name things according to what they experience in an environment, and not the nuts and bolts related to how it's created.  Both people are right, and both people are wrong when arguing about whether SL is a game.

That sort of dances around the point I was making.

If we say "Like [insert MMO game here], SL can benefit from [insert technology here]", certain residents will argue against it because, as previously quoted, they want nothing to do with a game.

Not because the technology is bad, if they even understand it at all, but because a game did it and SL isn't a game.

[SandorWren]

11 minutes ago, Chic Aeon said:

LOL I guess MY problem is that I like to SEE things and so many places including stores have their lighting (whether WL or EEP)  so dark and often gloomy that you can't see anything at all.  This is really odd for some events (in the past anywhere) where shoppers had to change their lighting in order to shop. Bizarre.   In SANSAR the lighting was set by the creator and there was no way to override.   This seemed to work fairly well with the PBR.  

 

BUT it appears that there are going to be some big issue for awhile. Everyone should brush up on their EEP personal settings if they don't use them often LOL.  Oh well.  

Love is right. When you need to see things clearly, just leave your settings on Midday. 

[Theresa Tennyson]

17 minutes ago, Zalificent Corvinus said:

It's the server side support for PBR.

Your viewer rezzes stuff in, when it gets UDP packets from the server telling it that stuff is there to be rendered, and what that stuff is, and what textures are on it, etc.

So.

Pre PBR.

"Attention viewer, your user can see

object 1, uuid blah-blah-blah-blah textured with texture 1 uuid blah-blah-blah-blah

object 2, uuid blah-blah-blah-blah textured with texture 2, uuid blah-blah-blah-blah"

 

ALM added UDP packets for normal maps, and specular maps and gloss/env settings

PBR adds more packets, for all the PBR maps and settings.

Your viewer can only cope with so many UDP packets at a time, on a non PBR viewer, the PBR packet spam manifests as "packet-loss" as the viewer thinks its the usual packets but corrupted by bad connection, 

In a PBR viewer in a non PBR scene, it is too busy reading 

"attention viewer metalness map not found, roughness map not found, emissive map not found, pretentiousness map not found overkludge map not found"

 

To read the next ACTUAL useful non PBR data.

That's why rezzing will slow down, your PBR viewer is dealing with all the "not founds" on the first Non-PBR object, so dealing with the non-PBR packets on object 2 have to wait.

 

So, these are all UDP packets, huh?

[Love Zhaoying]

4 minutes ago, Paul Hexem said:

That sort of dances around the point I was making.

Like, ballet, tap dance, or interpretive dance?  Witches dancing around a cauldron? Angels dancing on the head of a pin?

Metaphors and imagery make a big difference!

 

[Sid Nagy]

On 12/15/2023 at 7:45 AM, Zalificent Corvinus said:

I bet you said exactly the same thing about non-ALM-Materials, 9 years ago. 

And yet vast amounts of content is still made that doesn't use specular colour maps and normal maps, and a fair amount that does use them does so very badly, because the creator didn't RTFM, and thought the spec map was a strength map, and made it basically very dark grey, so no highlights actually show on the rendered surface at all.

I also suspect you are going to be as wrong this time as you were back then.

 

I suspect a great many creators in SL are NOT paying a monthly rentals fee for Substance Painter, and won't HAVE a PBR workflow at all, any more than they have a ALM-Mats workflow now..

 

More than half of the lamps one buys in SL still produce awful lights with the simple standard light feature.
So I have no high expectations that merchants and creators will implement it on a large scale either.

Let's face it, how often does one check on de shadows in RL when not photographing at that moment?
Never ever. Same will be in SL IMHO. Nice toys for the fiddlers among us and for the rest: On to the new shiny tomorrow.

Edited December 18, 2023 by Sid Nagy
Always edit. That is a good thing. :)

[Zalificent Corvinus]

Just now, Theresa Tennyson said:

So, these are all UDP packets, huh?

That's how SL works, the server sends UDP packets telling your viewer what's in front of you and with in draw distance, what it's uuid is, what textures it uses, what their uuid's are, colours, gloss/env settings, and now a whole new bunch for PBR.

It's called the "interest list".

If you checked the forums , you might even find the numerous threads, with posts by Linden devs, talking about interest lists, and why they havn't been recieved reliably for months, causing that whole "I teleported to location x and the buildings were there, i could walk into them, but they were invisible" complaints.

People like @animats and various Linden techs have posted on this. Try and keep up.

[Luna Bliss]

14 minutes ago, Paul Hexem said:

1 hour ago, Luna Bliss said:

Some people name things according to what they experience in an environment, and not the nuts and bolts related to how it's created.  Both people are right, and both people are wrong when arguing about whether SL is a game.

That sort of dances around the point I was making.

If we say "Like [insert MMO game here], SL can benefit from [insert technology here]", certain residents will argue against it because, as previously quoted, they want nothing to do with a game.

Not because the technology is bad, if they even understand it at all, but because a game did it and SL isn't a game.

Hmmm...well I suppose someone could (or has) used their perception of SL as not being a game to thwart various developments that other games employ. But I've never seen people do that. If they do, they're thinking illogically though and all you'd have to do is point out that the features we might want here have zero to do with whether we perceive SL as a game or not. In other words, don't let them lead you into a trap -- define on your own terms.

What I have witnessed though, is people whining for this or that feature because they've experienced it in another game and so expect it to be here, not realizing the unique attributes of SL that would make that nearly impossible (usually they don't comprehend the real-time creative ability we have here that we can all view immediately).

Edited December 18, 2023 by Luna Bliss