Luna Bliss Posted November 29, 2023 Share Posted November 29, 2023 (edited) 38 minutes ago, Polenth Yue said: I'm a cynical person, but there isn't realistically much to gain in someone answering thread after thread of help questions on a random internet forum. That means the most likely explanation in this scenario for why someone seems to be trying to help is that they're actually trying to help. Which means they aren't going to offer advice and then quickly report someone in the hopes that there won't be time to follow the advice. You're defending a support system that's already shown that they delete as their first action, to say that they wouldn't do that. Yet the people here are assumed to have the worst intentions without evidence. I don't need to hear your reasoning on why you do that, but it's not going to fly with me. I never said at any point in any way that it was Wulfie who flagged our OP's listings -- this is your assumption. Wulfie did point out there were even more listings with bad keywords, but I never believed or said they reported the additional infractions. I have no idea who it was, but I do believe it was a forum member, whether a regular poster or someone just reading (one of our 'guests' who did not officially log in). I'm not defending "a support system that's already shown that they delete as their first action" in the least. As I already pointed out earlier in the thread, I think a warning should be given first. I simply believe it was not a person in authority who initiated the removal of more of our OP's listings. People in authority in our SL world generally behave with a decent amount of professionalism, while I've seen the most egregious, selfish, back-biting, and sadistic behaviors from a few of our forum members. I guess we just have a difference of opinion on the matter, Polenth -- you believe an LL employee initiated the removal of most of his content, whereas I believe we had a flag-happy forumite with too much time of their hands who initiated it. Edited November 29, 2023 by Luna Bliss Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LittleMe Jewell Posted November 30, 2023 Share Posted November 30, 2023 (edited) On 11/29/2023 at 7:20 AM, Love Zhaoying said: imagining Forumites gleefully reporting someone's MP appears to be some kind of projection. There are a few folks that have an really poor opinion of Forumites in general and pretty much always think many of the regulars are always out to get people. Edited November 30, 2023 by LittleMe Jewell 3 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kathlen Onyx Posted November 30, 2023 Share Posted November 30, 2023 1 hour ago, Luna Bliss said: I guess we just have a difference of opinion on the matter, Polenth -- you believe an LL employee initiated the removal of most of his content, whereas I believe we had a flag-happy forumite with too much time of their hands who initiated it. Why does it have to be a flag-happy forumite? It could have been another store on the MP that got something removed and started looking at other stores and thought "If I can't do it, why can he"? and promptly reported it. It really could have been anyone who had a vendetta against the OP or maybe just reported it in good faith. "hey, I looked up shirts and I got a refrigerator in my search. I better flag this so they can fix it." It could have been you. I do agree that a warning email would have been nice. Dear SL Resident, you have 7 days to fix this 'whatever the issue is" or you item will be removed from the marketplace. Very simple to auto send an email out before just deleting the item. 4 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Love Zhaoying Posted November 30, 2023 Share Posted November 30, 2023 (edited) 21 minutes ago, Sam Bellisserian said: Why does it have to be a flag-happy forumite? I'm reminded of the classic "Pogo" comic strip line, "We have met the enemy and he is us.": Edited November 30, 2023 by Love Zhaoying 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luna Bliss Posted November 30, 2023 Share Posted November 30, 2023 (edited) 28 minutes ago, Sam Bellisserian said: 1 hour ago, Luna Bliss said: I guess we just have a difference of opinion on the matter, Polenth -- you believe an LL employee initiated the removal of most of his content, whereas I believe we had a flag-happy forumite with too much time of their hands who initiated it. Why does it have to be a flag-happy forumite? It could have been another store on the MP that got something removed and started looking at other stores and thought "If I can't do it, why can he"? and promptly reported it. It really could have been anyone who had a vendetta against the OP or maybe just reported it in good faith. "hey, I looked up shirts and I got a refrigerator in my search. I better flag this so they can fix it." It could have been you. I do agree that a warning email would have been nice. Dear SL Resident, you have 7 days to fix this 'whatever the issue is" or you item will be removed from the marketplace. Very simple to auto send an email out before just deleting the item. I agree that the initial flag could have come from a non-forumite (a competing store, a disgruntled customer), but it was right after his complaint on the forum about the initial removal of one of his items (along with someone reporting on the forum that so many of his listings were bad), that the major removal of his listings occurred. Sure, the person who made the initial complaint could have decided to continue with more flaggings after an interval, but the timing for me is a major factor in me leaning toward believing someone reading this thread did it. Another factor to consider -- his initial complaint wasn't the most friendly to say the least, and when you complain in blaming ways in such a manner it does tend to draw in people who also like to blame and fight (hence those who might want to cause him further harm). I just figured he was feeling hurt and offended and didn't take his attack personally. Often people blame WHATever when something bad happens before they get down into the reasons it happened. Some even take responsibility eventually and can admit they did something wrong! Edited November 30, 2023 by Luna Bliss Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Love Zhaoying Posted November 30, 2023 Share Posted November 30, 2023 This thread is wonderful evidence that we don't all have to agree, in order to get along. That reads too awkwardly..I'll try again: We can get along without having to always agree. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Deakins Posted November 30, 2023 Share Posted November 30, 2023 (edited) 15 hours ago, Luna Bliss said: I simply believe it was not a person in authority who initiated the removal of more of our OP's listings. People in authority in our SL world generally behave with a decent amount of professionalism, while I've seen the most egregious, selfish, back-biting, and sadistic behaviors from a few of our forum members. On the one hand, I think that Dakota Linden saying 'thank you' to the person who pointed out the blatant spam in the OP's listings speaks, if not volumes, at least one volume. And on the other hand, in the past, many forumites were so vehemently against any form of search results manipulation that they would do anything they could against it. The only reason we don't see much of that now is because, since the MP came into being, there hasn't been anything like as much of it. I simply can't imagine that anyone (the OP in this case) who knows how to use keyword spam imagines that it's perfectly ok to do it. So I can't see it as being innocent. LL will lose a tiny bit of money, yes, but in the past they haven't shown any care about that in their dealings with customers. The spam did need to be dealt with. LL is known for not caring about most of their customers, so they used a sledgehammer without even showing a modicum of customer care by informing the OP (as far as we know). It's the sort of thing that's expected of LL. Imo, it was staff who took the initiative, and not the result of forumites reporting it. The particular Linden who said 'thank you' leads me to lean quite strongly in that direction. But it's merely my opinion. Edited November 30, 2023 by Phil Deakins 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alwin Alcott Posted November 30, 2023 Share Posted November 30, 2023 11 hours ago, Sam Bellisserian said: Why does it have to be a flag-happy forumite? it could be, but doesn't have to be, MP has a lot more visitors as the forums. I know some people that when they are searching MP and find a load of spam, they'r spending a few minutes reporting and move on. I do sometimes too.. it's annoying as hell to get pages full of spam( for example the skin/shape/appearal sections , i don't hunt stores for it, but if it bothers me it gets a report. (And not this user, he didnt sell anything that has my interest or would pop up in my searches.) 12 hours ago, Luna Bliss said: egregious, selfish, back-biting, and sadistic behaviors from a few of our forum members. very nice to call out other forum members, while you fit in these categories for years with your physological warfare against the same group of people. LL didn't do a lot about it but it was grieving and harming a lót of people. Who after all your posts blocked you and ignore it for the rest of their live. This could also be posted in your own thread about my sl would never be the same; it's you, and not in a positive way. 3 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luna Bliss Posted November 30, 2023 Share Posted November 30, 2023 2 hours ago, Alwin Alcott said: 14 hours ago, Luna Bliss said: egregious, selfish, back-biting, and sadistic behaviors from a few of our forum members. very nice to call out other forum members, while you fit in these categories for years with your physological warfare against the same group of people. LL didn't do a lot about it but it was grieving and harming a lót of people. Who after all your posts blocked you and ignore it for the rest of their live. This could also be posted in your own thread about my sl would never be the same; it's you, and not in a positive way. I'm not sure what you mean about my being against "the same group of people". This isn't about ME being against some defined group here. Over the years I've simply seen egregious (sadistic) behavior from time to time exhibited by people on the forum and in SL inworld, and so this causes me to believe it's very likely for a person to relish the ability to attack another and get them into trouble. Add to this someone possibly feeling inconvenienced by not being able to find items on the MP due to spam keywords, in addition to feeling anger over someone breaking the rules, and it makes it very likely in my mind that it was someone reading the forum who flagged the OP's store to death. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luna Bliss Posted November 30, 2023 Share Posted November 30, 2023 3 hours ago, Phil Deakins said: I simply can't imagine that anyone (the OP in this case) who knows how to use keyword spam imagines that it's perfectly ok to do it. So I can't see it as being innocent. Thanks for your considered response, and given in clear bullet points even! My thinking on this -- I don't think he'd complain on the forum about this happening to him if he knew what he was doing was wrong. If you carefully read his responses you'll see a point at which he becomes aware he was breaking the rules. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Love Zhaoying Posted November 30, 2023 Share Posted November 30, 2023 2 hours ago, Alwin Alcott said: 14 hours ago, Luna Bliss said: egregious, selfish, back-biting, and sadistic behaviors from a few of our forum members. very nice to call out other forum members, while you fit in these categories for years with your physological warfare against the same group of people In Luna's defense (write down the date!), sometimes people just have a bad day. Sometimes people have a LOT of bad days. SOME people (not Luna, not you) seem to ONLY have "bad days" when judged from another person's perspective! (I leave those people on "block"). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Love Zhaoying Posted November 30, 2023 Share Posted November 30, 2023 3 hours ago, Phil Deakins said: I simply can't imagine that anyone (the OP in this case) who knows how to use keyword spam imagines that it's perfectly ok to do it. So I can't see it as being innocent. I assumed that the OP was just very, very offended ("butthurt" is a term that comes to mind) that they were called out for Spam after so many years, etc. (As if that made it OK.) 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Deakins Posted November 30, 2023 Share Posted November 30, 2023 2 minutes ago, Love Zhaoying said: I assumed that the OP was just very, very offended ("butthurt" is a term that comes to mind) that they were called out for Spam after so many years, etc. (As if that made it OK.) I saw a short on YouTube yesterday where a guy was in court for parking in a place he wasn't allowed to park. His defence was that he'd parked there for 10 years without a problem. The fact that he hadn't been caught for 10 years didn't wash, of course. 3 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luna Bliss Posted November 30, 2023 Share Posted November 30, 2023 (edited) 11 minutes ago, Phil Deakins said: 16 minutes ago, Love Zhaoying said: I assumed that the OP was just very, very offended ("butthurt" is a term that comes to mind) that they were called out for Spam after so many years, etc. (As if that made it OK.) I saw a short on YouTube yesterday where a guy was in court for parking in a place he wasn't allowed to park. His defence was that he'd parked there for 10 years without a problem. The fact that he hadn't been caught for 10 years didn't wash, of course. If I was suddenly called out for doing something wrong that I'd been doing for nearly 2 decades I'd sure as hell wonder what the hell happened! I might even say, before coming to terms with the fact that new rules came into place..."but I've been doing this for 2 decades!!". I think that's what was going on with our OP. I don't see that he was using it as a defense for his behavior. Edited November 30, 2023 by Luna Bliss 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Love Zhaoying Posted November 30, 2023 Share Posted November 30, 2023 12 minutes ago, Phil Deakins said: I saw a short on YouTube yesterday where a guy was in court for parking in a place he wasn't allowed to park. His defence was that he'd parked there for 10 years without a problem. The fact that he hadn't been caught for 10 years didn't wash, of course. Yeah, everyone knows that "selective enforcement of the Rules / Law" is only for the Elite! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Love Zhaoying Posted November 30, 2023 Share Posted November 30, 2023 Perhaps the OP was not aware that "relatively recently" (in the last year or so) - if I remember correctly, before the recent changes to Marketplace Search - there were some posts including Lindens discussing Keyword Spam, etc. So, visibility may have increased to the general issue of Keyword Spam, which could have led to a greater enforcement. Add to that of course, the fact the changes to the Marketplace Search may and/or may-not take Keywords into account the same ways as previously. etc. etc. * blathers off into the distance, mumble-purring * Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LittleMe Jewell Posted November 30, 2023 Share Posted November 30, 2023 Keyword spamming has been against the rules and a flaggable offense for at least the last 5 years. I know that because that is when I first pulled all of the MP listing rules and saved them, because I was contemplating opening an MP store at that time. "I have been doing X for NN amount of time" is never a valid defense. Just because LL took action against a large number of items does not necessarily mean that one or more Forum posters went and did massive flagging. This thread alone is enough to bring LL's attention to the store and keyword spamming that was happening. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wulfie Reanimator Posted November 30, 2023 Share Posted November 30, 2023 (edited) At the risk of extending this argument for another 5 pages... why are we hung up on the circumstances of the reports? No matter what, the people who report listings are not at fault for the creator breaking well-known rules, nor LL's response to the reports, nor the merchant's reaction to the unlistings. If unlisted products can't be relisted by the merchant after making fixes, that's one thing to criticize, and the warning system that was mentioned is also a nice idea. With keyword spamming as prevalent it is (it seems to have gotten even worse with the search changes), I would rather see the offending stores disappear entirely and give room to honest products. Just now I discovered stores with every listing pulling scams like this: The worst part is, it works. Edited November 30, 2023 by Wulfie Reanimator 4 2 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LittleMe Jewell Posted November 30, 2023 Share Posted November 30, 2023 (edited) 35 minutes ago, Wulfie Reanimator said: Just now I discovered stores with every listing pulling scams like this: The worst part is, it works. WOW. @Dakota Linden - Can something like the above example be flagged for keyword spamming? Based on the way I read the definition of Keyword Spamming, it does not look like the above would qualify. However, the above is definitely using the same keyword multiple times simply to game the Search. ETA: Though the proper fix would be to only use DISTINCT KEYWORDS in the Search process. Edited November 30, 2023 by LittleMe Jewell 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Dakota Linden Posted November 30, 2023 Moderators Share Posted November 30, 2023 Greetings! I have passed along the information and I would strongly encourage people to also bring situations like this up in the Web User Group. https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Linden_Lab_Official:User_Groups https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Web_User_Group 1 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Love Zhaoying Posted November 30, 2023 Share Posted November 30, 2023 1 hour ago, LittleMe Jewell said: ETA: Though the proper fix would be to only use DISTINCT KEYWORDS in the Search process. * facepaws * 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LittleMe Jewell Posted December 1, 2023 Share Posted December 1, 2023 1 hour ago, Dakota Linden said: Greetings! I have passed along the information and I would strongly encourage people to also bring situations like this up in the Web User Group. https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Linden_Lab_Official:User_Groups https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Web_User_Group It would be wonderful if everyone that had issues or suggestions could attend the User Group meetings, but alas some of us have to work for a living and live in the US where the normal workday hours just happen to coincide with LL working hours and User Group meeting times. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luther Weymann Posted December 1, 2023 Author Share Posted December 1, 2023 SETTING THE RECORD STRAIGHT I'm the guilty one. I'm the offender. I violated the rules and received my punishment. I moved from SL Exchange, xStreet Magic Boxes that Ansche Chung had sold to Linden Labs, to the new VMM (Viewer Managed Marketplace) SL Marketplace as soon as it was available. What was that, like 2010-2011? I may or may not have fully read the SL Marketplace rules of engagement the first time I was ready to put products on the SL Market. I certainly have not looked at them since that first day. There is this form you use when setting up market products. From day one, I thought the keywords were keywords for the entire store, just like in the SL search that everyone used to keyword their inworld stores. I used one copy of a prefilled-out form to list all 411 of my products on the SL Marketplace one at a time. Which means each product had all the keywords that referred to all my products. I had no idea whatsoever that I had violated any rules for the past more than a decade. My bad, and I paid the price. I did not know I was doing anything wrong until last week after over a decade of listings. Oh well. I logged in the other day, and my top-selling product was delisted and removed from the inworld inventory list for marketplace listings. I was upset and did not know why anyone would do that. So, being a grumpy 77-year-old retiree, I posted on this forum. And guess what? The next day, over 35 products were delisted. But not randomly. The first product delisted was my top revenue product. The next delisting was #2 best selling, and in order of top selling products, it was from #2 to over 35. In other words, the takedown was a takedown of the top-selling products. They knew what they were doing. Now, let me tell you why I'm setting the record here. My first avatar started on Jan 1, 04. You can read about that in my profile. I've been in SL almost daily since I retired twenty years ago. For the past three years, I've wondered why I remain in SL because I don't do anything anymore but log in, stand in my store, look around, and log off. It's been time to go for years. The delisting of my products just gave me the final reason because I'm way too tired of doing this to relist those products. Am I "butt hurt," as some of the people say? That's a laugh. But to the five people who have sent me hate IMs telling me I was a cheater and they are happy I'm gone and I got what I deserved, you need to grow a conscience, which for some people will never happen. I never intentionally cheated; I just never knew, and I've never taken the time to reread the rules since long ago. I have kept an inworld store since about 2005 (first avatar but still my scripts) because I've never had a month that the revenue did not pay for the tier, and that's why SL sales for me just continued to go on and on with no effort. I have listed all my inworld stores' CasperVendors at L$0, and when the rent runs out in June, I'll close that store. The link is in my profile. Since I sent out a group notice for this, I've given away over 17,000 things, so you are welcome to stop by and help yourself. I'm an old man who has been in SL for twenty years. This kick in the butt to close stores and go do something else has been a long time coming. I SL married some incredible SL women and dated many more, made lots of friends over twenty years, had my stores pay for everything I did since day one, had hundreds of thousands of customers, built castles, sailed yachts on all the SL seas, created massive estates and whole regions, and have nothing to be ashamed of. I've said my final piece here, so that's it for me. I had a great run. Respectfully, Luther Weymann 4 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LittleMe Jewell Posted December 1, 2023 Share Posted December 1, 2023 38 minutes ago, Luther Weymann said: But to the five people who have sent me hate IMs telling me I was a cheater and they are happy I'm gone and I got what I deserved, WTF ?!?!?!?! Wow, some people around here really need a life. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JUSTUS Palianta Posted December 1, 2023 Share Posted December 1, 2023 OP: Awe but I have been breaking the rules for 10 years how dare linden set me straight. (Also OP: Flounces of dramatically) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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