Breedable farms?

[Kyrie Deka]

It feels that unless a situation is a risk criminally or truly catastrophic to one's RL environment, then minding ones own business seems the best way to go.  

Honestly, I'm not sure I see the breaking of covenant rules as much worse than the camming into someone else's rented/owned home then taking/sharing pics of it with non-Lindens publicly.   Much the same to me. 

Truly if it mattered much and those scripts threw the lag meter seriously, I highly suspect the Lindens would notice in some way and put a stop to it without need for any one of us to report it.  And if not, if it isn't a real barn burner for the Lindens then it feels like it shouldn't be for me.   

 

 

 

 

[UnilWay SpiritWeaver]

Well the ones I reported are gone. I "think" the same person still owns the land as it has a claim date of a few days before I started this thread.

A wholly different AR I filed a few days before this one for a merchant in a different region using delivery vendors and dropboxes is still there. But I guess these things get sorted on priority and other ways.

 

[Kyrie Deka]

On 10/24/2023 at 11:28 PM, Jaylinbridges said:

would like the option to have more than 2 pets in Belli.  Just because they were once also breedables, that aged into pets that became permapets (do not need to eat or get sick) I like to have them around, and since they interact, 2 pets is not enough. 

I get this and agree completely! I ended up with several permapets over the years that I was just soooo attached to!  

[Polenth Yue]

7 minutes ago, Kyrie Deka said:

Truly if it mattered much and those scripts threw the lag meter seriously, I highly suspect the Lindens would notice in some way and put a stop to it without need for any one of us to report it.  And if not, if it isn't a real barn burner for the Lindens then it feels like it shouldn't be for me.

That isn't how it works. If you don't report a problem with a region, it'll just stay broken. They need people to help out and let them know when there are problems or things that will become problems. They wouldn't have created the rules if these things were not becoming problems.

I'm not a fan of trying to shame people for caring about their stuff in Second Life. It's okay to care about things that are not life-threatening. That includes wanting a region where we have a virtual house to run smoothly, to not get randomly teleported home, and other things like that. I hit an instant ban/teleport orb during the hunt and it messed up my viewer to the point of needing a clean install. Which won't kill me, but I'd rather not.

[UnilWay SpiritWeaver]

40 minutes ago, Kyrie Deka said:

Honestly, I'm not sure I see the breaking of covenant rules as much worse than the camming into someone else's rented/owned home then taking/sharing pics of it with non-Lindens publicly.   Much the same to me.

Bellisseria has a covenant and the rules in there exist for reasons - not everyone agrees with them and this won't be an attempt to justify them, rather explain why it sets a "customer expectation".

The two things for Belliserria and it's covenant about breedables and commercial items set (in my opinion) three customer expectations:

1. Lag reduction - the belief that breedable farms are laggy
2. Lag of shopping vendors - the belief that these are laggy
3. Zoning. It's kind of a USA cultural thing to think residential and commercial zoning being together is worse than... disco even. Like, it's just not done in polite society.
   1. But to give a maybe more serious reason - land fairness. If everyone could put their shops in linden homes they can get without paying to get the land, a lot of folks might, and the land you have to buy might dry up (and they could just put those shops in skyboxes to be able to style the look of them).

 

Now I don't know if the breedables are very laggy still, or the vendors... but the perception is there. One reason people get linden homes is to have a spot that exists under a covenant with those specific rules. Otherwise you can have much more control over your land on mainland or an estate.

For me... it was the idea that my "neighbors" aren't neighbors that bothered me. They seemed to be just an AFK account that would log in to give a merchant a screen to monitor shop traffic, and for the breedables just a 'dumping spot' for someone who was not "hanging out" there or using the spot.
For the shopping dropbox one - I was excited to get a new neighbor recently. Saw they were online constantly. So I cammed over to look, and found a pile of redilivery servers, dropboxes, and web-media prims that went to various SL activity monitoring sites for traffic, bots, marketplace, and a few blogs. The avatar of my neighbor was stuck halfway through a chair in front of it all.

- And yeah, those ARE busybody reasons... I almost didn't report the breedables because those I just found in a nearby region to me (I made this thread before reporting them).

 

 

Edited October 26, 2023 by UnilWay SpiritWeaver

[Jaylinbridges]

3 hours ago, Polenth Yue said:

If you don't report a problem with a region, it'll just stay broken. They need people to help out and let them know when there are problems or things that will become problems. They wouldn't have created the rules if these things were not becoming problems.

But if there is NO problem, and you are in no way affected, why is it your business to send AR's to Governance?  Is this some kind of sadistic hobby for some people?

They created rules based on worst cases, and mainly because the number of homes/region is so high, that if Everyone rented a home in the region, and they ALL wanted to have breedables, then depending on the breedable, the region would lag.  Of course nothing like that would ever happen.   And if it did, 1 chance in 10,000, they could simply take action.   

I do not support breedable farms in SL, btw, because some breeders have no idea what they are doing, and could create a mess of physical moving animals all bumping into each other.  But for pet owners, and those who simply buy a pair of breedables, and want an offspring, the TOS prevents this.  If SL was the RL government, would they put a limit of 1 child/household, because you know, kids playing can be noisy and bother the neighbors?  

Edited October 27, 2023 by Jaylinbridges

[Polenth Yue]

2 hours ago, Jaylinbridges said:

But if there is NO problem, and you are in no way affected, why is it your business to send AR's to Governance?

I very rarely put in reports. That's because I'm a spirit of the rules person, so I don't report as long as it doesn't appear to be causing a problem and isn't at risk of escalating. I've found plenty of examples in the former category, where they were technically over the limit, but clearly as pets in a decorated house. I don't draw attention to those. The limit could be a bit higher without causing major issues, in my opinion.

However, the examples in this thread are in the latter category. They're new breeding setups with no signs of the house being in use for other purposes. Many breeders have a hard time sticking to small numbers of pairs, so it's optimistic to assume it'll stay there. It's better that they find out about the rules now, before they go full horse house.

In the end, I'm a cynical pessimist, and you're never going to persuade me that I should trust that people will do the right thing and it won't end up with breedables crammed into every last space.

 

[Kyrie Deka]

14 hours ago, Polenth Yue said:

If you don't report a problem with a region, it'll just stay broken. They need people to help out and let them know when there are problems or things that will become problems. They wouldn't have created the rules if these things were not becoming problems.

I'm not a fan of trying to shame people for caring about their stuff in Second Life. It's okay to care about things that are not life-threatening. That includes wanting a region where we have a virtual house to run smoothly, to not get randomly teleported home, and other things like that. I hit an instant ban/teleport orb during the hunt and it messed up my viewer to the point of needing a clean install. Which won't kill me, but I'd rather not.

*Waves Hiya*

You and I naturally agree that reporting should be done.  In my case, what is, is what is, unless it is extreme. Broken functionality also already has its place to report.  You and I agree on that, absolutely.  And we do not disagree that the Lindens do need help identifying functionality.  I believe what we disagree on sounds like non-functional things.  Kitty Kats in hovertext-only static boxes lined up on the floor doesn't seem to be breaking anything but a covenant rule * (and I might even debate that I would have to reread a lot to be sure first) .  Lag "possibility" as a break?  I dunno, I've always considered that on the users end: Tweak your pc, connections, isp, etc. and if that don't work, um, move.  And I have time and again, and raised my living circumstance. I believe we Agree on a lot there.  

What we might seem to disagree on is on me (a User) reporting the non-extreme behavior of others, in their own rented/owned place, doing their own thing within those boundaries.  Lindens have not hired me to do that, have not asked me to do that, and so I choose to not.  Covenants are structures, and again, I've not been hired to be the Covenant police, and my job is that me-myself-and-I go by any Covenants I agree to go by.  Again, functionality breaks are a completely different discussion.  If someone placed their huge Kitty Kat over *my* property line and it didn't go poof when I set it to auto-return, that's an extreme, and extreme enough that I would feel the need to contact the owner 1st, and if weeks and no response, then report it and would.  If it was inside their own rented/owned parcel and not on mine?  I would not report it.  It is not my job, until its my job. Yes, volunteers are needed, RL and SL, naturally, I volunteer, but I volunteer to do the job asked of me.  I don't volunteer to do job 1, then walk in and self-expand my power to "owner" without being given that by the owner(s).

To me, and I hope to you, as we are thinking folk, I certainly believe its fine that we play and report differently.  And you can bet, when the Lindens contact me to ask me to do it as a job specifically, I would do the job.  And if those reporting have been hired by the Lindens to do a job, then we would agree I suspect the one being asked/agreeing to be the behavior police should do it, including camming in to other's properties.  But I've never seen a Linden directive to report a similar issue in this way through these forums.  

 

 

Edited October 27, 2023 by Kyrie Deka
TyPoS; *clarity*

[Kyrie Deka]

13 hours ago, UnilWay SpiritWeaver said:

is worse than... disco

Made me smile!!  

[Kyrie Deka]

13 hours ago, UnilWay SpiritWeaver said:

1. Like, it's just not done in polite society.
   1. But to give a maybe more serious reason - land fairness. If everyone could put their shops in linden homes they can get without paying to get the land, a lot of folks might, and the land you have to buy might dry up (and they could just put those shops in skyboxes to be able to style the look of them).

 

Now I don't know if the breedables are very laggy still, or the vendors... but the perception is there.

*Waves Hi!*

Your position and reasoning understood.  My reasoning would be different.  Prior stated, no value at regurgitating.  We agreed in one part of your statement, and I am absolutely fine and sure you are also, that we live different roles here.  We each evolve in our own way over the years here.  To each, yours and mine, their own.  Cheers to the thinking folk!

 

[Kyrie Deka]

11 hours ago, Jaylinbridges said:

But if there is NO problem, and you are in no way affected, why is it your business to send AR's to Governance?  Is this some kind of sadistic hobby for some people?

They created rules based on worst cases, and mainly because the number of homes/region is so high, that if Everyone rented a home in the region, and they ALL wanted to have breedables, then depending on the breedable, the region would lag.  Of course nothing like that would ever happen.   And if it did, 1 chance in 10,000, they could simply take action.   

I do not support breedable farms in SL, btw, because some breeders have no idea what they are doing, and could create a mess of physical moving animals all bumping into each other.  But for pet owners, and those who simply buy a pair of breedables, and want an offspring, the TOS prevents this.  If SL was the RL government, would they put a limit of 1 child/household, because you know, kids playing can be noisy and bother the neighbors?  

Well said. 

And TBH, we forget sometimes that there are users who do not come to SL every day for hours and hours, year after year.  I mean, could this be a new user came in, rezzed two pets out and they have not been able to log back in due to RL for a few weeks/months?  

[Nika Talaj]

There seems to be some perception that anyone who sends an AR views themselves as governance police.  I doubt that.  I only AR when someone's covenant booboo bothers me personally, or when they encroach on public lands in a way that impedes others.

I don't know if anyone else feels this way, but KittyCats in boxes strike me as the creepiest collectibles in SL.  They don't "read" to me as pets, they read to me like someone took their actual pet,  a living creature, stuffed it in a box, and put a bright label on it.  

A person across the way from me in Fantasseria had 4 or 5 KittyCat boxes out on the front yard, near their porch.  Eventually I did AR them, because every time I glanced in that direction there was all that hovertext blaring at me, reminding me that a taxidermist lived there.  *shudders*   If anyone else feels the same way, maybe dormant breedables get reported more often than, say, addons that are too tall?

If there were any way to turn off hovertext on breedable boxes, maybe they would be reported less often.  As it was, I halfway expected to hear plaintive meows from the boxes every time I walked by.

[Polenth Yue]

1 hour ago, Nika Talaj said:

If there were any way to turn off hovertext on breedable boxes, maybe they would be reported less often.  As it was, I halfway expected to hear plaintive meows from the boxes every time I walked by.

The default for KittyCat boxes is an actual box or special item (not with the picture) and no hovertext. The image and hovertext are options in the menu. It'd take a few menu clicks to revert them and remove the hovertext.

[Kyrie Deka]

3 hours ago, Nika Talaj said:

There seems to be some perception that anyone who sends an AR views themselves as governance police. 

In my experience, this doesn't seem to be a common perception.  There are reasons to send ARs which issue rises to the level of intrusion upon one's own owner/rental space which should be sent.   Everyone decides what that level is for themselves.   And as ARs are between a user and Lindens only, none can be "wrong".  

[Jaylinbridges]

8 hours ago, Nika Talaj said:

I don't know if anyone else feels this way, but KittyCats in boxes strike me as the creepiest collectibles in SL.  They don't "read" to me as pets, they read to me like someone took their actual pet,  a living creature, stuffed it in a box, and put a bright label on it.  

Someone buys a new mesh body, and the body is delivered in a packing box which you rezz to unpack.  How creepy, putting a human body in a tiny box, and even showing a model picture on the box.  Totally creeps me out that sellers put their avatar creations in a box to sell, and put a photo of the avatar on the outside.

That is what you are basically saying.  Kittycats in boxes are just a way to sell unborn cats, or to store new cats that are not born.  Horses use a pile of hay for unborn horses,, etc. . These are nothing but packing boxes with scripts inside that can be activated by a click.  The same as any scripted object, such as a chair with scripts. 

The cat is not alive until it is unpacked using the Unpack button on the box. At that time, the box vanishes (can take 5-10 mins for dramatic reasons) and a tiny kitten appears, and now you need to also feed it kibble, which you pay extra for.  That is the start of the life of a kittycat.  In 7 days, the tiny kittycat grows to a full size cat, and in another 7 to 10 days, the cat can first breed with another mature cat IF the owner decides they want a new kitten, with traits that can come from both parents, obeying standard genetic rules.

You can also turn breeding off after 14 days, and only have a pet forever.  Kittycats are both pets that interact and play, and breedables if you choose.  The boxes are just boxes with a picture on them.  The actual box is a small square cardboard box with no picture or text at all.  If you want to see a preview of what the new kitten will look like, you can click on the featureless cardboard box using the Image button, and see a 2D Image of the fur and face, that the creator took in their studio.  This is how unborn cats are sold.  There are 100's of thousands of these boxes for sale all over the grid.  You can also buy a generic cat directly from the kittycat main store.  They arrive as a pair of unknown traited cats in a large round bag.  They are not alive in the bag, it is just another way to pack scripts and objects for delivery.

Hovertext is easily turned off by the menu activated by clicking on the box.  

 

Edited October 28, 2023 by Jaylinbridges

[Jaylinbridges]

Why are you confused Rowan?  Have you ever owned a kittycat?

[Rowan Amore]

3 hours ago, Jaylinbridges said:

Kittycats in boxes are just a way to sell unborn cats, or to store new cats that are not born.

Not confused at all.  Kitty cats boxed for sale would be against the Belli covenant.  If they are unborn, they aren't pets yet.  Since @Nika Talajmentioned seeing boxed kitties on her neighbors front yard, that would indicate to me, they were selling them.  I certainly don't keep unopened boxes of anything littering up my front yard...unless they were for sale.

[Jaylinbridges]

47 minutes ago, Rowan Amore said:

Not confused at all.  Kitty cats boxed for sale would be against the Belli covenant. 

If the boxes were not priced, so you could not buy them in Belli, then they are not for sale.   Boxes, full or empty, are just objects, and are allowed in Belli.  The covenant says the tags on those boxes should be turned off, if visible at the land level from off your parcel.  If you store boxes in a skybox, nobody can see the tags. Same with every other object displayed in Belli that is not for sale.  Many sellers do display their products in Belli, anywhere on their parcel, but they are not for sale.  Art galleries, furniture, building parts for Belli homes, all visible either outside or inside their Linden Home.  All perfectly legal.  If you are interested in purchasing something on display, you look at the owner's profile, and the designers profile, and find their MP or in world store, outside of Belli, or send them an IM.

New kittycat owners are often so excited about their new unpacked (unborn) kitty boxes, that they put them on their walls, in place of other pictures. Some put them outside, because they are excited and proud of them.  They usually get over this when they get up to 50 boxes, and then send them to the cattery or inventory.  It sounds like you have never been into breedables, or you would understand what I am saying.

The official Kittycats open help group now has 23,648 group members.  There are probably twice that many that own kittycats but do not care to be in the official group, because they never breed them, and might only have one of the free permapet cats that are sometimes available at the main store. 

 

Edited October 28, 2023 by Jaylinbridges

[Jaylinbridges]

56 minutes ago, Rowan Amore said:

Since @Nika Talajmentioned seeing boxed kitties on her neighbors front yard, that would indicate to me, they were selling them

Absolutely untrue,  You are making assumptions here. She was complaining about seeing the hover text above the boxes.  The default is no hover text. She could have just asked the neighbor to turn off the hovertext, instead of sending an AR to Governance.  

When you buy a kittycat box, you must rez them in world at least once, to inform the kittycat server that you are the new owner.  Just the box, not unpack and birth the kitten. After that you can do whatever you want with them. Storing your own boxes in world is not against the Belli TOS.  Each box uses 1 prim. Seems that is a personal choice, where you store your boxes, and not every busybody neighbors business.

 

[Nika Talaj]

I did assume that KittyCat hovertext could not be turned off, because ALL the KittyCat boxes I've seen inworld have been like those in the OP's pic - with a picture of a cat and hovertext.  I suppose people could have a pile of KittyCat boxes inside their homes without pictures and hovertext on them, and I would never notice.  *shrugs*   On the Fantasseria parcel I mentioned, I never checked to see if anything was for sale, and didn't remain in Fantasseria long enough to see if my AR was ever acted on.

Until recently, I had a houseboat neighbor who had KittyCat boxes with pics & hovertext inside their home scattered seemingly randomly about, along with a few wandering breedables that didn't seem to visibly multiply,  tho food dishes were out. There was little other furniture.   [In case you're thinking I was prying to look inside, hovertext is still kinda hard to miss, tho LL seems to me to have taken steps to limit its visibility behind walls.  Still often visible as you walk by, if it's close to the wall.]  I didn't report them, as it was no skin off my back ... the region has few homes in it, so lag wasn't an issue, even if some breeding was taking place. 

If what you say is true, it seems odd to me that so many KittyCat owners purposely turn on hovertext and show the cat pics.  But whatever.  To my eyes, the confusions in this thread are an illustration of how unrealistic it is to expect Governance to investigate the degree of activity for all the various breedables on the market.  Belli is a VERY LARGE themed estate - I believe it's the largest themed estate on the grid.  Governance rules must be kept simple if LL is to have a prayer of enforcing them.

[Kyrie Deka]

9 hours ago, Jaylinbridges said:

The official Kittycats open help group now has 23,648 group members.  There are probably twice that many that own kittycats but do not care to be in the official group, because they never breed them, and might only have one of the free permapet cats that are sometimes available at the main store. 

And one of them is me.  Just testifying to fact.  I'm good with facts.  Perceptions?  A scary way to punish society is on perceptions.  Judgment on perception is why we have incarcerated the wrong people, and tens-of-years later after we - community RL - have stolen their youth and choices for decades, we then see them released/proven wrongfully jailed.  Give me facts (lag) or specific literal rule in the covenant, and (for good or bad) the rule is what it is.  

[Sparkle Bunny]

15 hours ago, Jaylinbridges said:

 Kittycats in boxes are just a way to sell unborn cats, or to store new cats that are not born.

What about the breeding KittyCats displayed as a flat prim inworld? THOSE are creepy af. Roadkill kitties having hovertext box babies.

(Yes, I have kept KittyCats. I don't rez them in Belli, purely because they are prim hogs and I like my cats to be cats, rather than pictures of cats or legless things in baskets.)

[Jaylinbridges]

5 hours ago, Sparkle Bunny said:

What about the breeding KittyCats displayed as a flat prim inworld? THOSE are creepy af. Roadkill kitties having hovertext box babies.

(Yes, I have kept KittyCats. I don't rez them in Belli, purely because they are prim hogs and I like my cats to be cats, rather than pictures of cats or legless things in baskets.)

Breeders keep their cats in the 2D box 1 prim form because they save on prims.  Not every breeder can afford a 5000+ LI parcel, just to keep the cats as 13-17 prim 3D objects.  I keep my kittycat PETS as 3D, and breeding stock as 2D.  The pets are around my  home and yard, and interact with us and other cats.   The breeders are on a work platform. There is no reason why breeding cats need to be 3D and primy.  My partner and I already have about 20 pets, all 3D and interactive.  Why would I also want another 100 breeder cats to be 3D on a platform I only use as a workspace?  You need some detachment if you are a breeder, vs a pet owner. 

Obviously if you have live cats in Belli, you are already short on prims, and would leave most of your cats as 1 prim objects.  And as I keep saying, put the boxes and breeders on a high platform, out of sight of snoopy Belli neighbors.  Leave your pets where you can enjoy them at ground level. They should raise the  pet limit to 4 at land levels.  And it is nobody's business whether someone chooses to save prims by using a lower prim mode for a breedable, just keep them out of sight for the neighbors.

There are quite a few 1 prim life size photos of a 2D Patch Linden around Belli too.  I found them collecting candy from the pumpkins.  Should I AR the owners, for not having Patch in 3D and moving?   I found a full size 2D color cutout of Patch staring at me from behind a pumpkin to be a lot creepier than a kittycat box.

Edited October 28, 2023 by Jaylinbridges

[Marisa Starbrook]

On 10/23/2023 at 7:07 PM, Trinity Blakewell said:

Maybe cute but so not worth the hassle!

That's why I keep a non-Linden skybox in a breedable welcoming region.

[Sparkle Bunny]

3 hours ago, Jaylinbridges said:

There are quite a few 1 prim life size photos of a 2D Patch Linden around Belli too.  I found them collecting candy from the pumpkins.  Should I AR the owners, for not having Patch in 3D and moving?   I found a full size 2D color cutout of Patch staring at me from behind a pumpkin to be a lot creepier than a kittycat box.

Cardboard cutouts of avatars are creepy too, yeah. That's why people are using them as Halloween decor.

Come to that, flat kitties would pass as decor, if they turned off hovertext and hung them up on the wall. It's just that these small-time breeders ignoring the covenant are too lazy even to attempt to remain in theme, let alone rez a skybox at an appropriate height.