Ban lines - a proposal

[Gabriele Graves]

I think the biggest boon to SL travellers would be if that LL invested in making it so that it doesn't matter whether you are ejected by orb or hit a banline, that your journey is always recoverable, any vehicle you are in continues running and you are able to navigate off the banline.

I feel if that was a guarantee, even at region crossings, much of the travelling woes would fade.

[Casidy Silvercloud]

7 minutes ago, Persephone Emerald said:

When should ban lines show up? 

For me, I don't see a reason to restrict the distance at all. I'm not sure why the lab hasn't yet figured out how to add that sort of slider as someone else suggested and then people can choose their own distance in the same way we do draw distance. 

8 minutes ago, Persephone Emerald said:

How long of a delay is necessary before ejection?

Usually the 15 second and up ones offer me ample time. I've been caught by some 10 second ones before that didn't give me quite enough time. Anything under 10, I'm way more likely to get caught unless I'm moving super fast. It's not the land owner's fault, or problem, though. This is what I call a me problem. It affects me and only me, so, I think people should set their security to whatever they want or think they need. I would never dictate what they SHOULD do, because I'm not paying for it, lol.

10 minutes ago, Persephone Emerald said:

Is it necessary to Send Home an avatar, when a simple ejection should be sufficient?

This likely depends entirely on where someone is ejected to. The one corner I was talking about used to eject people right back to the corner, but on the wrong side sometimes which causes a perpetual loop. I don't know that there'd be a fix for that or not. I think it just sent it to the next closest parcel which happened to be right there, but on the border, which is where the problem sits. That's probably way less common than just being sent to the next parcel over. Another component to that though is the person could be ejected to a parcel they can't be on either and they could get stuck in a loop there too. This one's probably way more subjective and dependent on the situation at the time. I don't think there is a universal answer.

12 minutes ago, Persephone Emerald said:

Also, can we get objects to bounce off ban lines instead of getting stuck in them?

Sometimes this happens, and sometimes it doesn't. Banlines have no rhyme or reason to them, they do whatever tf they feel like doing at that moment I think. That probably lends a lot more credence to why estates and property owners don't want renters using them. Not just because they're ugly, but because they're also a bit unpredictable and you can't always assume one thing or the other will happen. You really don't know until you hit it. 

[Aethelwine]

13 minutes ago, Gabriele Graves said:

In my opinion, only from private regions, otherwise it causes more harm than good.  It would be nice if that were disabled for mainland.

TP Home even in private regions can be alarming for relatively inexperienced people.

I set my Home to somewhere I was renting on a private region. I moved and forgot to change where my home was. A month or so later, I got one of those region restart messages and I pressed the Home button to avoid it and landed on my home location which of course now wasn't mine and had security set on it set to send people home. Which of course was where I already was. It pretty much locked my viewer and gave me the teleport wooshing noise every few seconds. I was able to time a double click teleport on minimap to extricate myself, had I not set up my viewer commands to do that, I would probably have had to login to a different region in the viewer from a restart. I imagine that could be quite an alarming situation for someone relatively inexperienced.  

[Gabriele Graves]

2 hours ago, Zalificent Corvinus said:

Zero seconds, and yes TP home is essential, 

TP home can mean crashing out of SL.  I don't think that is acceptable for mainland where people can stumble around and get caught accidentally.  Even if TP's were 100% reliable I would still say TP Home is too much.  It should be enough that a person is off my property, that's as far as my power should extend.

I'll go one further and say that TP home when damage reaches zero should be disabled too for the same reason.

I really would like a better option even for private regions but I just don't think there is one.  However you have to TP to a private region and so nobody is stumbling around and finding themselves on it by accident so I think the risk is acceptable in that one case.
 

Edited August 12, 2023 by Gabriele Graves

[Rowan Amore]

I'm beginning to understand why some people might have more of an issue with harassment from griefers than others.  🤔

[Gabriele Graves]

Just now, Aethelwine said:

TP Home even in private regions can be alarming for relatively inexperienced people.

Agreed and I have addressed that in my previous post - definitely not ideal but what can be done instead?

[Gabriele Graves]

7 minutes ago, Rowan Amore said:

I'm beginning to understand why some people might have more of an issue with harassment from griefers than others.  🤔

I had a catfisher from Thailand hang out side my place for days.  It all started friendly enough and I allowed the visit but when a friend and I weren't buying what he was selling, he got abusive so I ejected and banned him.  It was so funny, he took 20mins attempting to get back in before realising he couldn't.

Every time he saw I was on he would IM and attempt to cajole, send more abuse, anything he could to get a reaction.

Even if I had TP'd him home, he would have still come back and stayed just outside my window.

The funny thing is that it was the fact that I totally ignored him, making him think I had muted him, that eventually made him go away, nothing else.   Boredom is the greatest defense.

Edited August 12, 2023 by Gabriele Graves

[Aethelwine]

1 minute ago, Gabriele Graves said:

Agreed and I have addressed that in my previous post - definitely not ideal but what can be done instead?

I suppose in circumstance I was referring to the solution would be for the teleport home function to check that it hasn't been called twice in last few seconds and if it has then to teleport to a safe hub.

[diamond Marchant]

53 minutes ago, Aethelwine said:

There is very little forewarning, but I think it is a bit more than 8m.

I studied this more carefully from the other direction where there is no region crossing. The mini-map shows pink at approx 15m and the banlines appear at approx 8 meters. In a boat making 10kts, you are moving at approx 5m/sec. Gotta be paying attention and quick with the fingers.

53 minutes ago, Aethelwine said:

The counter argument to that though is that when someone is using the orb to eject a griefer from an event, is the 15 seconds delay then really acceptable?

You can also eject griefers by right clicking their name and selecting Eject from the pie menu. You would need sufficient parcel perms of course. As this form of ejection does not use a script, llEjectFromLandWithDelay would not be called.

Edited August 12, 2023 by diamond Marchant

[Gabriele Graves]

1 minute ago, Aethelwine said:

I suppose in circumstance I was referring to the solution would be for the teleport home function to check that it hasn't been called twice in last few seconds and if it has then to teleport to a safe hub.

Doesn't it send them to a safe hub already if they don't yet have a home set?

By now I would have thought that LL would have defaulted every new account to the place they rezzed initially as their home.  Is that asking too much?

I guess I was coming from the point of view that a person would be using TP home from a private region rather than an orb.  Perhaps that is a wrong assumption.

[Aethelwine]

5 minutes ago, Gabriele Graves said:

Doesn't it send them to a safe hub already if they don't yet have a home set?

By now I would have thought that LL would have defaulted every new account to the place they rezzed initially as their home.  Is that asking too much?

I guess I was coming from the point of view that a person would be using TP home from a private region rather than an orb.  Perhaps that is a wrong assumption.

I was raising the situation I found myself in where my home was set to a place where the send home orb was. I had moved out without changing my home. By "relatively inexperienced" I wasn't just meaning people here in their first few days, but also those who have been here longer, even years and never looked to set up double click teleports, or use minimap etc.

I really hadn't thought much about it, just thought it an interesting anecdote  

And yes I am pretty sure the default home for someone new would be their welcome area. 

Edited August 12, 2023 by Aethelwine

[Gabriele Graves]

Just now, Aethelwine said:

I was raising the situation I found myself in where my home was set to a place where the send home orb was. I had moved out without changing my home.

I really hadn't thought much about it, just thought it an interesting anecdote  

Oh, right - yes in that case that is a bit of a pickle.  Circular TP home should definitely be somehow caught and stopped by the region.

This has reminded me of a thing that happens on mainland:

People who once owned/rented the land, then sold it or stopped renting it.  Another person then buys/rents that parcel and the previous occupant(s) keep rezzing in as if it were their home still.

I had this happen on more than a few occasions when buying new land.

I've sent IMs, tried to chat with them, ejected them.  All ignored and nothing seems to get them to move on.  They even come back to log out.  Presumably the home position is still set or they really are that bloody-minded.  The only thing that moves them on is a ban.

This is a peculiar aspect of land ownership in SL.
 

[Gabriele Graves]

49 minutes ago, Zalificent Corvinus said:

Secondly, if you had ever been an admin on a region with morre than one parcel set to the same land group, you'd know that doing an eject, just kicks them off the parcel, then you eject and ban from each of the other parcels in turn, which requires that you visit each parcel in turn, and then when you eject and ban from the last parcel, the attacker has NOWHERE to be ejected to, and ends up in some weird zero width limbo, on the edge of a parcel, where they can slide back and forth along the line, and carry on griefing, but...

YOU CANNOT eject and ban them further because technically, they are no longer on land you have boot powers for. Stuck, untill they choose to leave, attacking your land/visitors, and you cant do a damn thing till a smarter admin arrives and says "Doh, you should have used 'punt kick the trash back to their dumpster'"

 

This is a really good point.  If it were possible the eject should updated to be able to eject from all group land if on nested group owned parcels.  This kinda seems like a bug to me.

If another region is the only place they can go as there is no Linden land, so be it - it should move them to one of the closest regions.

 

Edited August 12, 2023 by Gabriele Graves

[Zalificent Corvinus]

Just now, Gabriele Graves said:

This is a really good point.  If it were possible the eject should updated to be able to eject from all group land if on a group owned parcel.

This kinda seems like a bug to me.

Even that would be useless. Eject only works within a single region, if there is no valid access-allowed location to eject to, stuck in the zero-width-quantum-monomolecullar-limbo-of-being-unbannable.

From that point there are only two alternatives.

1. Unban from a parcel, allow them to enter it, PUNT KICK THER TRASH BACK TO THEIR DUMPSTER, re-add to the ban list

or

2. Summon somebody with estate level boot powers to punt them off the estate

 

That is why TP Home is needed M<ORE on mainland, because estate level ban fix, means summoning a Linden, which might take hours/days/weeks/never.

Having to wait that long to get rid of the trash is unacceptable.

[Gabriele Graves]

1 minute ago, Zalificent Corvinus said:

Even that would be useless. Eject only works within a single region, if there is no valid access-allowed location to eject to, stuck in the zero-width-quantum-monomolecullar-limbo-of-being-unbannable.

Sorry, I updated my post - stream of consciousness thing going on.

[Persephone Emerald]

1 hour ago, Zalificent Corvinus said:

 

Secondly, if you had ever been an admin on a region with morre than one parcel set to the same land group, you'd know that doing an eject, just kicks them off the parcel, then you eject and ban from each of the other parcels in turn, which requires that you visit each parcel in turn, and then when you eject and ban from the last parcel, the attacker has NOWHERE to be ejected to, and ends up in some weird zero width limbo, on the edge of a parcel, where they can slide back and forth along the line, and carry on griefing, but...

YOU CANNOT eject and ban them further because technically, they are no longer on land you have boot powers for. Stuck, untill they choose to leave, attacking your land/visitors, and you cant do a damn thing till a smarter admin arrives and says "Doh, you should have used 'punt kick the trash back to their dumpster'"

I have been an admin for a region that had multiple parcels - a public sandbox, shops, private homes, and other public use areas. If someone were a problem, they could be banned from the whole region as long as the person doing the freezing, ejecting, and banning has region/estate management abilities. Freezing troublemakers, rather than immediately ejecting them, allows the manager to copy their name and add it to the banned avatar list. Once their name is copied, they can then be manually ejected from the region and sent Home (most likely to some newbie safe zone, since real greifers often don't pay for land in SL).

Renters of parcels may be given the right to freeze and eject avatars, but I wouldn't usually give them the right to ban other avatars. (I've also rented out parcels on my own mainland.) It's up to the estate or parcel owner to decide how much power they give individual group members, based on their group title and the powers they give to each title. 

[Silent Mistwalker]

I think that is what caused that one guy to get stuck. I banned him first. Then I had to freeze him to eject him. That was the day I learned to freeze then eject then ban. Mute/blocking can occur at any time before or after. Usually before. 🤭

[Persephone Emerald]

2 hours ago, PheebyKatz said:

I agree with this. If hell is other people, one can always OSGrid it.

Now to figure out how to solve the problem of people who want to do SL and flipflop between being disappointed that there's never anyone around, and wishing that every awesome build everywhere inworld was abandoned so they can explore it all alone, and probably naked.

I would say give users the godmode ability to turn off knowledge of any other users' presences (or even existence), and to go unseen themselves amongst crowds of users at various popular venues even when everyone is visible to themselves, but then we might all be a little too close to Lindenhood for security, lol.

That kinda stuff could really screw with people's paranoia, too.

All one has to do to be invisible is to turn off the ability for others to see that you're camming on them, and then cam everyone in the People list.

[Jaylinbridges]

2 hours ago, Aethelwine said:

And yes I am pretty sure the default home for someone new would be their welcome area. 

Quote

One fun little fact: The first place a new account TPs to becomes their HOME location. Usually, it is the info hub they are sent to when completing the initial tutorial. However, if you create a new account and as soon as you rez, you can open the world map and click anywhere in the world. TP there and that becomes your first HOME spot.

https://community.secondlife.com/forums/topic/448339-set-home-spots/?do=findComment&comment=2047185

I didn't check this when I made a new alt.  LL sent me to the Firestorm Welcome Hub, and I TPed to my mainland shop, joined the land group, and set my Home there.  

I never knew you had a Home set automatically - but that explains why so many newbies end up at welcome centers if a region crashes.

Edited August 12, 2023 by Jaylinbridges

[elleevelyn]

15 hours ago, Casidy Silvercloud said:

Is there a debug setting one can alter that makes it so banlines show up from a further distance? I know draw distance has no effect at all on them

 

not yet no, we can't change the Proximity distance of approx. 8 meters. The Proximity distance is when ban line information is sent to the viewer

for the typical vehicle puttering along at 30kph, the driver has about 1 second to react before crashing into the ban line (assuming the ban line info did arrive and get displayed by the viewer at the 8 meter mark)

the thought (asked by many down the years) is for Linden  to give us a slider where we can adjust the Distance to Ban Line ourselves, or alternatively (also asked by many) have a menu option: World \ Show \ Ban Lines by Draw Distance

of the two I think Draw Distance would be pretty ok for most vehicle users. Given that this would also inform the Minimap a whole lot earlier than now. And if we driving so fast that we out-running our Draw Distance then oh! well and toooo bad if we crash ourselves into a banline 128 or 256 metres away

 

Edited August 12, 2023 by elleevelyn
typs

[Kathlen Onyx]

I wonder if some of this could be solved by only having ban lines activated if someone is on the parcel.  That would probably get rid of 75% of the ban lines on any given day. If an orb or security device can be triggered surely LL can trigger the ban lines when the owner or someone on the whitelist is in the parcel. 

 

[BillFletcher]

13 hours ago, Zalificent Corvinus said:

One of my former SL housemates, who has since quit SL altogether, actually met your previous Forum incarnation in world.

Interesting, I have this vague memory of such a conversation, it seems to me it was before Covid but maybe I am mistaken or I am thinking of something different. Are you reconstructing the events from memory or did you take notes? I was going to say that the OPs suggestions would still work for such things as showing up on the map, but then I read your comments about why people who inadvertently bump into a ban line need to be sent home, and I realized that ruining other people's day is a priority for you,. But still this is a forum, the point of which is that people express their opinions, if you are not interested in other peoples opinions you should avoid the forums and just hang out in your safe SL home behind your ban lines.

[Zalificent Corvinus]

21 minutes ago, Sam1 Bellisserian said:

I wonder if some of this could be solved by only having ban lines activated if someone is on the parcel.  That would probably get rid of 75% of the ban lines on any given day. If an orb or security device can be triggered surely LL can trigger the ban lines when the owner or someone on the whitelist is in the parcel. 

 

The ban lines are there for a reason.

Linden Lab say we're supposed to have them so people like you, cannot wander into our home and pretend to be shocked at us having a pictrte with bare boobs on a wall, or a bed with extra friendly poses in the bedroom, and waste the time of the guys in Governance with typically Bellicosian petty abuse report spam that are invariably destined for the trash can.

 

This LL's OFFICIAL "Behind Closed Doors" policy, so turning off the ban lines when we're not home would automatically put us in violation of that policy, and give you Bellicosians an excuse to...

 

Waste the time of the guys in Governance with typically Bellicosian petty abuse report spam that are invariably destined for the trash can.

 

So, NO, banlines are there for a reason, and the banlines will stay, 24 hours a day.

[Zalificent Corvinus]

15 minutes ago, BillFletcher said:

I read your comments about why people who inadvertently bump into a ban line need to be sent home

Nobody inadvertently bumps into my ban lines.

I don't live next to some badly built road, with a mis-aligned jagged edge, I don't live near a road at all.

I don't live near a protected water channel.

I don't live on the ground.

People exploring on foot, will see the banlines in plenty of time to stop walking towards them.

People driving cross country, will see the banlines when they slow down to avoid crashing into a large building that makes the parcel useless for off road motor sports.

 

The only people who get punt kicked home are idiots who IGNORE the red painted "banlined" parcel on the minimap, and DELIBERATELY choose to trespass, above the banlines, and who intrude more than 2 m into the parcel. 

Accidentally fail to turn in time and just clip my property, no problem.

 

Deliberately CHOOSE to invade my home, and get what you asked for and richly deserve, booted and banned.

 

My tier bill, my parcel, my home, my rules, my wold, my imagination.

I imagine a home where I don't have arrogant abusive idiots trying to land their jet fighters in my sodding living room, so they can scream at me for daring to have a home, and file fraudulent abuse reports.

"Waaaaaaaaahhhh the nasty lady broke by plane with her living room sofa! I'm a Bellicosian, ban her daddy Linden, ban her!"

 

[Rowan Amore]

If one thought critically about the 'behind closed doors' policy, you'd see that LL knows what happens in Moderate regions and has no interest whatsoever in reports of people doing the deed there.  If they were that concerned about it, they wouldn't allow adult activity in Belli.  A place they could have easily stated this from the beginning.  They did not.  They could have allowed ban lines.   They did not.

What they ARE concerned with is adult activity that is promoted or advertised being in an Adult region.  

Once again, LL know sex sell and if they were THAT concerned with what was going on in Moderate areas, they would have made less of that and more Adult.   It's not rocket science, FFS.

I highly doubt anything more official will ever be said.  As was mentioned to me, you'd then have people pushing the boundaries to see how much they could get away with.   "Is this allowed?  How naked can I be?  Is BDSM allowed in my yard?  Is this pornography or art?"   The less said the better as far as LL is concerned.  But go ahead, report your neighbor on Moderate land having sex in his skybox with visibility disabled.  I'm sure governance loves those.  🤣