Mainstream failure of SL & Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs

[Drayke Newall]

I'm all for all demographics to be represented. Even my posts on user types and meeting the needs of all of those I hope conveys that.

That said, like Coffee said, sex is shunned in SL and by LL whereas it should be advertised and shown off it is a major draw card to Second Life despite what people in this thread seem to think.

If you dont think adult content is what keeps the lights on in SL and has for years, then ask all the furniture content creators whether their general or mature rated furniture outsells or even comes close to their adult furniture content sales.

Go to marketplace and click search without putting any search terms in with GMA filters and then filter by best selling. Top items sold on MP and for many, many pages it is filled with adult content and bdsm, far outselling general or mature rated content.

It is the largest demographic in SL yet it never gets a mention in any form by LL?

[Love Zhaoying]

1 hour ago, Coffee Pancake said:

1 hour ago, Luna Bliss said:

There are so many communities/meetings/groups within SL that will never show up as an amassed huge number on your charts.  I"m glad you're at least attempting to go outside your personal experience, but you're misrepresenting the objective criteria you're attempting to use to back up your beliefs.

Expand  

Yes, my searches will never show the a wellness group that meets for an hour every Thursday.

But that wellness group is not keeping the lights on for SL, it's probably costing the platform money.

@Luna Bliss, the solution is apparently to charge extra for wellness groups since they don't add to the SL economy like Sex. 

[Persephone Emerald]

If you go to an AFK sex area, far more than half of the avatars are essentially bots. If you go to The Sands or Breathe Spa, pretty much all the avatars are there for some kind of sexual stimulation. 

Not all Adult sims are primarily for sex, though. Most RolePlay sims may have sex in private, but most of the storylines are not centered around sex.

My point is that the numbers for how active an area is don't tell the whole story. Stores and shopping events are popular too, and not everyone at these events are buying new clothes, hair, furniture and etc. because they want to get virtually laid.

If we want a representative example of what Premium users are doing in SL, I think Bellisseria is a pretty good sample set. Go and look at all the parcels in a region. What percent have BDSM furniture? What percent have Adult furniture? What percent have no furniture?

Personally, though, I have Adult furniture in my house that I don't even use. I doubt I'm alone in this behavior. If I like how a bed or sofa looks, I don't care if it has Adult animation in it or not. Personally, I like the idea of SL sex, without actually engaging in it. I like the idea that I could. I sometimes wear sexy clothes because I like the idea of SL sex, but other times I just want to wear jeans and a modest top, because I'm so not in the mood for that kind of thing.

[Caeruleiae]

6 hours ago, Sammy Huntsman said:

I said that I don't think LL should be making this system and that the user created systems were good enough. That isn't me saying that these systems shouldn't exist.

I don't think user created systems are good enough. I think we have them and some of them work nicely-but there is always room for more. My original comment pages back was still about an if scenario not a when scenario though. If ll paid any attention to that particular demographic-they could incorporate something themselves to show they're paying attention.

They don't have to-any more than they have to pay attention to anyone else and what they get up to in sl. But it would do them well to pay attention to them. Just because that demographic may be represented by smaller numbers doesn't mean ll should pay them no mind at all. My entire point has been that ll can do more for all-if they're serious about retention anyway. 

[Luna Bliss]

5 hours ago, Drayke Newall said:

That said, like Coffee said, sex is shunned in SL and by LL whereas it should be advertised and shown off it is a major draw card to Second Life despite what people in this thread seem to think.

The large population of sex cults within SL, the perception of SL as a "porno hub" (to use Coffee's words), is actually what has kept SL from growing as much as it could have.

[Caeruleiae]

7 hours ago, Coffee Pancake said:

It's not even funny. If you don't want to be associated with sex, you're playing the wrong game.

I think this is where you lose everyone in the thread and why people automatically assume the rest of us talking about other demographics are also talking about sex and all those interested primarily in that. You can't really say you're not putting more importance over one demographic in the same post you say this.

I am not here for sex-of any sort-but I wouldn't knock others who are. I don't think ll should put more focus on that demographic than any other. I think they need to focus on multiple. You also said

7 hours ago, Coffee Pancake said:

Because we have been trying to sell people on everything else and it's not working. It's never worked.

Which is completely false. Ll has not been trying to sell people on everything else. Some people in sl may have been-but ll themselves has not. In fact ll does a really piss poor job of promoting-or selling as you put it-anything at all. This is where ll's marketing team fails completely and from what I can tell-always has. Ll needs to more of the-look what you can do in here-marketing and cover far more vast areas of interest than just one or two demographics.

Sl will appeal to people in any number of ways-no one more important than another in the overall scheme of things. A larger number of people engaging in one particular activity doesn't mean ll should focus more on that area. Some marketing on it would do them well-yes. But first ll has to figure out how to actually market sl in general and they don't yet have a handle on that. Ll simply cannot afford to market that particular demographic the way it seems you want the to without it being detrimental to others. I think ll needs to go back to the drawing board on marketing in general though-because frankly I'd fire the lot of them.

Edited July 2, 2023 by Caeruleiae

[Love Zhaoying]

So, if I now understand better, the "true topic" is something like:

 "Mainstream popularity of Second Life 'fails' (relative to the success it could have) because even though you can 'get your needs met' in Second Life (in a lower-quality way than 'other games'), the fact Second Life can 'meet your needs' with Adult Content is still the 'worst-kept secret' and people need to be told."

The Reality

I propose that all of the above is true. What could, should, and probably will happen is this:

- Linden Lab will release the Mobile Viewer, which will have the potential of massively increasing the Second Life user base. 
- However, because of the "worst kept secret", new users will not be aware of how Second Life can "meet their adult needs".
- This will result is a massive lost opportunity: new user retention will be nowhere what it should (even with the quality of "adult offerings" in Second Life being much lower than "other games").

The Solution

I suggest that an ad campaign is required, to advertise the "worst kept secret" openly. 
 

The Resulting Consequences

The success of the new Mobile Viewer, buoyed by the much-needed ad campaign to "tell the 'worst-kept secret' about Second Life", will have a direct consequence: a dire shortage of Second Life Sex Workers.

- To address this problem, I propose a second ad campaign which should be released along with the first. 

- Here are example points that could be used to create the needed ad campaign for Second Life Sex Workers.

"Second Life Needs Sex Workers!"

Second Life is an immersive Virtual World, which includes adult activities including Sex. Come join Second Life and be a Sex Worker!

- No cost to join

- Completely Safe: In Second Life, there are no sexually diseases, extortion, violence, human trafficking, and other social issues associated with "Real Life" sex work.

- Choose your own Avatar!

- Age is no barrier!

- Disability is no barrier!

- Your "Real Life Gender" does not matter, you choose who to be!

- Set your own hours!

Thousands of people are looking for sex NOW in Second Life. Soon, a new Second Life Mobile platform will be released - increasing the demand for YOUR services as a Second Life Sex Worker.

Join Second Life Today, and Be a Second Life Sex Worker! 
 

[Luna Bliss]

5 hours ago, Coffee Pancake said:

But if anyone asks for anything .. suddenly, that means SL is pivoting to be 100% sex and all 3 of the book clubs no one visits will have to close.

As I said in your other thread about wanting LL to pat those engaging in sex in SL on the head, when society at large sees sex included in about ANYthing they label the place as porno, and so they should not emphasize the sexual side of SL at this time.  Because of the way society views sexual matters (in black and white terms), to advertise it would only increase the negative perceptions SL has garnered over the years.

It's this bad reputation that has stagnated growth in SL -- totally the reverse of your theory that is driving your inept solutions to the "growth problem".

And despite what you say, SL is not 'porno heaven '-- sex occurs here of course, but not to the degree you imagine -- and much of it is not at the crude/porno/sex cult level.

[Love Zhaoying]

8 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

And despite what you say, SL is not 'porno heaven '-- sex occurs here of course, but not to the degree you imagine -- and much of it is not at the crude/porno/sex cult level.

Unfortunately, everyone sees Second Life through a filter of their own needs, priorities, morals, and how they personally use Second Life. If anyone says "Second Life is XYZ but should be ABC", it tells us more about them than it does about Second Life.

Unless someone personally conducts full-grid surveys, nobody knows the statistics of what's in - or not in - Second Life. It is a lot of wishful, magical thinking, projection, and bitter demands that apparently drive people to complain instead of making a positive impact.

One person's "active adult community" is another person's AFK club.

 

[Rowan Amore]

10 hours ago, Coffee Pancake said:

It's several orders of magnitude higher traffic and the overall volume is astounding.

What do they sell at Home Depot .. DIY supplies for your home .. what do they advertise and promote and try to get you to buy at every opportunity when you're there? More DIY supplies.

We're the internet's avatar porn hub and scared to mention it. Maybe that's a mistake.

Because we have been trying to sell people on everything else and it's not working. It's never worked.

Have we tried being honest .. No.

No, we have a lot of that too, it's a bit niche .... 🙄

I get it, lots of people aren't humping avatars or seeking to hump avatars at all. That's great.

But not what the vast bulk of people are up to.

I'm not even one of them. I have social anxiety. I do all my humping avatars at home.

I never said anyone was superior. Not once.

All I ever said is that's what most people are doing here.

Demonstrably provably more people by a massive overwhelming majority.

It's not even funny. If you don't want to be associated with sex, you're playing the wrong game.

So I did a bit of investigation this morning.  I will also check back at various times so my experience will coincide with when others might be logged in. 

What I found was of the top 10 or so places you show in that mama allpa search, there was no one having sex.  There were plenty of naked AFK avatars in various position on the furniture but no real people engaging in adult activity.  Interesting?  I thought so, too.

As was mentioned, there are adult places with real avatars engaging but the majority of those people at those places are probably just chatting with other folks or are just standing there while doing other things.  I've done that for years.  Hang out at busy adult places and chit chat.   

I don't doubt many people initially join SL for the SLex but using search to show just it's popularity is wrong.  I also noticed at a few of those top places, the ubiquitous unregistered bots up above or down below.  

ETA:  By the way, this is valid when searching Escorts also...basically anything related to Sex will get you lots 'o bots places at the top of the lists.  

 

Edited July 2, 2023 by Rowan Amore

[Silent Mistwalker]

11 hours ago, Coffee Pancake said:

I don't know where you think these better enlightened people are with their activities, but I might I suggest that they aren't in Second Life

You would be wrong. They just don't "advertise" the fact they are here because they don't need to.

[Silent Mistwalker]

10 hours ago, Caeruleiae said:

No, others think it should go away. I don't think ll should take anything away-I think they need to add more to help with retention and cater to more people not less.

When I said that I was replying to someone else who believed that it is something no one would want so therefore not worth having in the viewer at all. Because that person thinks things like slex and the rp type system we were discussing should not be improved by ll.  I think quite the opposite. 

Exactly what I was saying with my posts-but you may have to go back and read them because they were specifically discussing rp type systems that do things like beyou-which is another demographic that ll can pay attention to. 

I'm not the person that wants anything to go away or be eliminated. I'm the one that thinks ll should be paying attention to MORE areas of interest to help with retention and not cater to just one-because like you said it will be way more problematic if they do. 

Your first sentence tells me you didn't even bother to read any of my posts. You've wasted enough of my time.

Edited July 2, 2023 by Silent Mistwalker

[Luna Bliss]

11 hours ago, Coffee Pancake said:

I don't know where you think these better enlightened people are with their activities, but I might I suggest that they aren't in Second Life

I think we need to discuss these "better people" and "enlightened people" you keep going on about across a couple of threads.

It's just layers of consciousness, and we flow back and forth between them.  Nothing wrong with the more crude levels as long as we're not stuck there or can never move beyond them and have balance between the layers.

No shame, Coffee.

I can't right now though because a ritual is almost beginning.

Edited July 2, 2023 by Luna Bliss

[Silent Mistwalker]

10 hours ago, Coffee Pancake said:

It's several orders of magnitude higher traffic and the overall volume is astounding.

What do they sell at Home Depot .. DIY supplies for your home .. what do they advertise and promote and try to get you to buy at every opportunity when you're there? More DIY supplies.

We're the internet's avatar porn hub and scared to mention it. Maybe that's a mistake.

Because we have been trying to sell people on everything else and it's not working. It's never worked.

Have we tried being honest .. No.

No, we have a lot of that too, it's a bit niche .... 🙄

I get it, lots of people aren't humping avatars or seeking to hump avatars at all. That's great.

But not what the vast bulk of people are up to.

I'm not even one of them. I have social anxiety. I do all my humping avatars at home.

I never said anyone was superior. Not once.

All I ever said is that's what most people are doing here.

Demonstrably provably more people by a massive overwhelming majority.

It's not even funny. If you don't want to be associated with sex, you're playing the wrong game.

 

What a load of 🐄💩.

[Prokofy Neva]

On 6/29/2023 at 3:03 PM, Henri Beauchamp said:

I am fascinated to see how most US citizens think the whole World revolves around their culture and values, and share the same references and education... 😜

That's at least something SL might help people (from all around the world) to get a grasps onto: diversity is immense, when compared to the country where each of us lives in RL.

Never make any assumption about a SLer you first meet: they may be from the other side of the globe (even if time zones tend to impair such meeting occasions), with an entirely different culture. That's one of the things I love in SL: no a priori can be made about who is the person behind an avatar.

"Maslow's Hierarchy" is not ubiquitous; it is a social theory actually invented in 1943 but which became popularized in the '60s and '70s that I think hasn't aged particularly well like other '70s theories and even back then it wasn't taught routinely anywhere, high school or college. In fact, I didn't hear about it until I came to SL -- where technocommunist/technolibertarian social scientists abound -- and I saw some people bandy it about as if it were the ur truth of the Metaverse. 

The Wikipedia essay explains that it is popular *outside* (emphasis added) academia, and was said to be based on Maslow's study of monkeys (and the claim about his study of Native Americans appears to be an urban legend). It's not a staple *inside* academic, although academia is filled with a lot of exotic and unrealistic theories as well.

This part is relevant:

 

Quote

 

Criticism[edit]

Maslow's hierarchy of needs has widespread influence outside academia, perhaps because it explains things "that most humans immediately recognize in themselves and others."^[34] Still, academically, Maslow's idea is heavily contested. Although recent research appears to validate the existence of universal human needs, as well as shared ordering of the way in which people seek and satisfy needs, the exact hierarchy proposed by Maslow is called into question.^[12][13] The most common criticism is the expectation that different individuals, with similar backgrounds and at similar junctures in their respective lives, when faced with the same situation, would end up taking the same decision. Instead of that, a common observation is that humans are driven by a unique set of motivations, and their behavior cannot be reliably predicted based on the Maslowian principles.

Methodology[edit]

Maslow studied people such as Albert Einstein, Jane Addams, Eleanor Roosevelt, and Baruch Spinoza, rather than mentally ill or neurotic people, writing that "the study of crippled, stunted, immature, and unhealthy specimens can yield only a cripple psychology and a cripple philosophy."

 

^{[35][17]: 200}

 

A certain SL artist has said "everyone in SL is broken in some way." He is quoted in certain circles in this stark manner so I caught up with him and asked him if he had actually said that, and he said he had, but that he meant that SL is perfect for broken people.

And so it is.

Edited July 2, 2023 by Prokofy Neva

[Silent Mistwalker]

10 hours ago, Coffee Pancake said:

That's not what I am saying.

LL can say "Hey look , we have sex! Woohoo!" and it wont affect you or your enjoyment of SL in the slightest. You probably wont even notice. Nothing will change for you. 

Prove it. Prove that it won't have any effect. You can't because it's a lie.

[Prokofy Neva]

3 hours ago, Love Zhaoying said:

So, if I now understand better, the "true topic" is something like:

 "Mainstream popularity of Second Life 'fails' (relative to the success it could have) because even though you can 'get your needs met' in Second Life (in a lower-quality way than 'other games'), the fact Second Life can 'meet your needs' with Adult Content is still the 'worst-kept secret' and people need to be told."

The Reality

I propose that all of the above is true. What could, should, and probably will happen is this:

- Linden Lab will release the Mobile Viewer, which will have the potential of massively increasing the Second Life user base. 
- However, because of the "worst kept secret", new users will not be aware of how Second Life can "meet their adult needs".
- This will result is a massive lost opportunity: new user retention will be nowhere what it should (even with the quality of "adult offerings" in Second Life being much lower than "other games").

The Solution

I suggest that an ad campaign is required, to advertise the "worst kept secret" openly. 
 

The Resulting Consequences

The success of the new Mobile Viewer, buoyed by the much-needed ad campaign to "tell the 'worst-kept secret' about Second Life", will have a direct consequence: a dire shortage of Second Life Sex Workers.

- To address this problem, I propose a second ad campaign which should be released along with the first. 

- Here are example points that could be used to create the needed ad campaign for Second Life Sex Workers.

"Second Life Needs Sex Workers!"

Second Life is an immersive Virtual World, which includes adult activities including Sex. Come join Second Life and be a Sex Worker!

- No cost to join

- Completely Safe: In Second Life, there are no sexually diseases, extortion, violence, human trafficking, and other social issues associated with "Real Life" sex work.

- Choose your own Avatar!

- Age is no barrier!

- Disability is no barrier!

- Your "Real Life Gender" does not matter, you choose who to be!

- Set your own hours!

Thousands of people are looking for sex NOW in Second Life. Soon, a new Second Life Mobile platform will be released - increasing the demand for YOUR services as a Second Life Sex Worker.

Join Second Life Today, and Be a Second Life Sex Worker! 
 

SL avatars aren't safe from coercion and at least virtual violence, that's for sure.

I think LL's marketers would not want to market the product in this way because it only enables more disparaging reviews from tech media where the nerds hate it when the porn talks back, as it tends to do in RL even at AFK motels.

If LL marketed the sexual side of SL, they would be marketing us as the product like every other Internet platform -- they're not going to run their own bots or AFK motels or Linden Homes as brothels so that means they'd be relying on user content. And they are an exception to "you are the product" -- they make the world and its possibilities the product. So I think this would be done in more subtle ways for sure. 

[Prokofy Neva]

14 hours ago, Coffee Pancake said:

Lots of people found SL searching for AVATAR .. you know, the movie.

Which is why there was a blue person on the video LL commissioned .. because someone thought AVATAR2 would work for us again .. and there there would be blue people in SL.

I was heavily involved in the Vamp culture here. No one came for nosforatu.

But that's a lie .. SL is not this big do or be everything you want.

There are very limited ranges of things you can be, do or build. Tons of stuff we try to make here just isn't technically viable. This is a highly constrained platform.

If you want to make or be or build anything .. you should be playing with Unity

Is there a world made with Unity that has higher concurrency than SL?

Also, I have to wonder why no Open Sim or something unrelated to SL has succeeded by making a specifically adult world.

About 20 years ago, when I first came to SL in 2004, I recall there was another adult world out there, I can't even remember the name now because it failed and is gone now. Not There, not The Sims Online, which had certain adult activity while not allowed by the platform providers, but a separate, specifically encouraged adult world.

LL created Zindra as a way to address legal as well as aesthetic concerns. I think most people in SL do NOT like having XXX rated ads crop up in their feeds and view all the time -- which is why you can sort by rating, and thank God for it or hentai would inundate us.

Zindra has its popular spots but I've been noticed that the land market in Zindra, while for years much more lucrative and higher-cost than the rest of SL, is now as soft as the rest of LL, with parcels going for $5/m or even $2/m when someone realizes their auction win is going into the existing market glut. There are green dot pile-ups at certain popular clubs but I think it's a fair bet that there are way more green dots in Bellisseria than Zindra.

The Lindens talked about making a new adult area with a different theme. Scifi is a niche and most people returned the homes provided in Horizons. The roads in Zindra look like they were made out of plastic polymers. I think LL would succeed if they made an adult area that looked more sedate, that looked like Victorian-era or 1970s-era porn.

 

Edited July 2, 2023 by Prokofy Neva

[BelleBax]

@Coffee Pancake - congratulations on initiating such an interesting topic. I haven't made my way through all responses, but I appreciate the lively discussion on what seems to be multiple ideas - and I'm happy to toss my opinions into the mix...

In general, I don't concern myself with the number of new SL regular users. If this is a real problem, and LL wants me to give it attention, they'll need to share their data and solicit my input.  I care a lot about the platform, but right now, I'm happy to enjoy what SL offers understanding there is a large team at LL working to make it even better. I may be naïve, but the SL ecosystem seems relatively stable and complex enough to support a global userbase while it continues to evolve - so I don't worry it will disappear overnight. I worry more that it could go the way of Twitter being bought up by some maniacal force that will make me rethink my participation.  

I do agree the challenge of onboarding new residents in a meaningful way is a huge blocker early retention. Most of my SL friends were referred by someone else, who not only helped them learn the ropes, but also aided them in meeting and engaging with others in SL with similar interests. The beauty of this (I imagine) is those who are referred are more likely to return and become regulars.  The drawback is most others may struggle to find value in SL and give up on it quickly. Should LL have a referral program (do they already?)? Do residents want to give up anonymity to start inviting friends and family to join? 

As to Maslow's hierarchy of needs  - I don't have any issues with Philip's response. I would say SL could also be a part of meeting our safety needs, particularly if mental healthcare and wellness options expand inworld. I'd love to see more expansion, more opportunities, more residents, more everything in SL - especially as the notion of virtual lives on metaverse platforms gains more acceptance. But, the fact that this place already exists is quite a blessing (imperfect though it may be).

Like RL, much of what we gain from SL depends on what we put into it.

[Silent Mistwalker]

4 hours ago, Caeruleiae said:

I think this is where you lose everyone in the thread and why people automatically assume the rest of us talking about other demographics are also talking about sex and all those interested primarily in that. You can't really say you're not putting more importance over one demographic in the same post you say this.

I am not here for sex-of any sort-but I wouldn't knock others who are. I don't think ll should put more focus on that demographic than any other. I think they need to focus on multiple. You also said

Which is completely false. Ll has not been trying to sell people on everything else. Some people in sl may have been-but ll themselves has not. In fact ll does a really piss poor job of promoting-or selling as you put it-anything at all. This is where ll's marketing team fails completely and from what I can tell-always has. Ll needs to more of the-look what you can do in here-marketing and cover far more vast areas of interest than just one or two demographics.

Sl will appeal to people in any number of ways-no one more important than another in the overall scheme of things. A larger number of people engaging in one particular activity doesn't mean ll should focus more on that area. Some marketing on it would do them well-yes. But first ll has to figure out how to actually market sl in general and they don't yet have a handle on that. Ll simply cannot afford to market that particular demographic the way it seems you want the to without it being detrimental to others. I think ll needs to go back to the drawing board on marketing in general though-because frankly I'd fire the lot of them.

We do agree on some things. Isn't life grand? 😊

[Persephone Emerald]

10 hours ago, Coffee Pancake said:

That's not what I am saying.

LL can say "Hey look , we have sex! Woohoo!" and it wont affect you or your enjoyment of SL in the slightest. You probably wont even notice. Nothing will change for you. 

It could affect my enjoyment of SL if it suddenly becomes full of noobs looking for a good time with any avatar who looks attractive to them.

[Love Zhaoying]

29 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

I think we need to discuss these "better people" and "enlightened people" you keep going on about across a couple of threads.

You could start a separate thread! I started two recently with content originating from this thread - so I would not derail this thread!

[Love Zhaoying]

17 minutes ago, Persephone Emerald said:

It could affect my enjoyment of SL if it suddenly becomes full of noobs looking for a good time with any avatar who looks attractive to them.

This is why LL urgently needs to advertise for more Second Life Sex Workers, for the impending n00b crisis!

 

Edited July 2, 2023 by Love Zhaoying

[Silent Mistwalker]

12 minutes ago, BelleBax said:

start inviting friends and family to join? 

They didn't want anything to do with SL because of SL's reputation for being a sex site. It's not a good feeling.

[Silent Mistwalker]

6 minutes ago, Persephone Emerald said:

It could affect my enjoyment of SL if it suddenly becomes full of noobs looking for a good time with any avatar who looks attractive to them.

I've been biting my tongue to not say the obvious. Personally, I got fed up with the constant being hit on 15 years ago and it hasn't stopped yet. I definitely do not want more of the same. In the nearly 20 years I've been logging in, it has never been for sex. 

Something else that is being overlooked. There is no real privacy in SL so anything you do can be witnessed by others.