Mainstream failure of SL & Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs

[Scylla Rhiadra]

1 hour ago, Coffee Pancake said:

This is why sex features  .. because it's quick

Hope not!

1 hour ago, Coffee Pancake said:

. . . and easy

Don't believe everything you hear.

I insist on flowers and chocolates at least.

[Rowan Amore]

7 minutes ago, Sammy Huntsman said:

There are probably more ways to lure in new users, than just SLex. And I think the OP really needs to understand that, and realize it just ain't about it. 

The OP was.about fulfilling basic needs for new users.  Using sex as the basic need just seems.pedestrian.  Of course a goal would be attractive to a lot of people but having that goal be sex isn't it.  Eventually, maybe for some.

We all see them around.  Basic avatar, nothing newer than 2012 worn, no payment info, all sex.groups, all sex.places in picks, no AO.  Sex is their objective.  Who the heck wants to be that person?  

A system new users would have the option to use which includes traveling around mainland, getting a stamp like the did for that SL.passport thing, finding other things LL has placed around the grid...whatever.  Don't monetize it, don't make.it mandatory but do make it goal oriented somehow.  Somehow that doesn't initially cost money.  Most people will want to spend eventually when they see what out there by being out there.

People do like having things to do and having something from start that doesn't cost anything and gets you out and about, isn't a bad thing at all.

And...while you're out achieving your goals, you might just meet someone interesting enough to do the deed with.

 

[Coffee Pancake]

Just now, Scylla Rhiadra said:

Hope not!

Don't believe everything you hear.

I insist on flowers and chocolates at least.

Oh god .. now I'm remembering why I loathe para-rp.

3 minutes ago, Rowan Amore said:

The OP was.about fulfilling basic needs for new users.  Using sex as the basic need just seems.pedestrian.  Of course a goal would be attractive to a lot of people but having that goal be sex isn't it.  Eventually, maybe for some.

We all see them around.  Basic avatar, nothing newer than 2012 worn, no payment info, all sex.groups, all sex.places in picks, no AO.  Sex is their objective.  Who the heck wants to be that person?  

A system new users would have the option to use which includes traveling around mainland, getting a stamp like the did for that SL.passport thing, finding other things LL has placed around the grid...whatever.  Don't monetize it, don't make.it mandatory but do make it goal oriented somehow.  Somehow that doesn't initially cost money.  Most people will want to spend eventually when they see what out there by being out there.

People do like having things to do and having something from start that doesn't cost anything and gets you out and about, isn't a bad thing at all.

And...while you're out achieving your goals, you might just meet someone interesting enough to do the deed with.

 

Oh I get that, totally .. the point about sex is it's an instant "oh right".

Another and completely different "oh right" is standing about being an edge lord on voice chat. 

The reality is a new user will find themselves getting banned from places for being new, but by the time they hit that wall they will hopefully have enough momentum to keep plugging away.

 

TPing about collecting stamps needs some kind of tangible purpose .. say .. every time you get one you can join one more group up to the max a basic can have. Paying premium skips this totally. It gives the legit new person activity with a purpose, it makes rolling alts more of a chore, and doesn't affect us at all (expect our disposable alts, which is probably not a bad thing).

I'm fully prepared for everyone to hate on that idea too.

Tasks without tangible reward are just .. jobs, and that's not fun at all.

[Persephone Emerald]

2 hours ago, Coffee Pancake said:

  Thank you for proving my point so quickly and so exactly.

It will probably horrify you to know that BDSM has been a core part of this platforms social construct right back it earliest days.

Ok, let's take SL sex as an example of *one* of the kinds of activities that people in SL like to do. Most of us have probably engaged in SL sex at some time.

We don't know what percentage engaged in SL in their first month here, but a survey might provide an approximate idea of how many newbies do still. It's not everyone though. It wasn't my first goal, though it's an activity I engage in from time to time.

There are alot of different flavors of sexual activity though, and not everyone is interested in BDSM. I'm not interested in virtual BDSM, because I'm a sensual masochist in RL, but not really submissive. I'm not a prude. I have my own kinks, but they don't include SL BDSM. This doesn't make me an outlier. It just means not everyone is interested in the same activities that you like.

I know BDSM and Gorian RP have been part of SL since the beginning, but so has vanilla sex, tinies, building, dancing, sailing, explorering, etc. Sex is one kind of activity. BDSM is one kind of activity. These aren't what everyone who comes into SL is looking for, though. For some, seeing these advertised when they first come inworld might even be a turn off.

[Scylla Rhiadra]

5 minutes ago, Coffee Pancake said:

TPing about collecting stamps needs some kind of tangible purpose .. say .. every time you get one you can join one more group up to the max a basic can have. Paying premium skips this totally. It gives the legit new person activity with a purpose, it makes rolling alts more of a chore, and doesn't affect us at all (expect our disposable alts, which is probably not a bad thing).

I'm fully prepared for everyone to hate on that idea too.

Nope, this seems like a viable idea to me, as essentially part of the tutorial process. It's a kind of gamification, but a useful one, and not too onerous or restricting. Give people 5 slots to start with, and make them "earn" more.

There are in fact lots of good ideas in this thread, many of which do involve some version of gamification.

[Sammy Huntsman]

4 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

Nope, this seems like a viable idea to me, as essentially part of the tutorial process. It's a kind of gamification, but a useful one, and not too onerous or restricting. Give people 5 slots to start with, and make them "earn" more.

There are in fact lots of good ideas in this thread, many of which do involve some version of gamification.

I wanted a runescape style tutorial, where they would use animesh peeps to basically give you quests to learn about how to use SL. 

[Sammy Huntsman]

1 minute ago, Sammy Huntsman said:

I wanted a runescape style tutorial, where they would use animesh peeps to basically give you quests to learn about how to use SL. 

I want my newb to go on this epic fantasy style quest that is made of a few regions, to teach people the basics. Then at the end, it gives you a portal to the NUX hub, where they can learn more. 

[Coffee Pancake]

7 minutes ago, Persephone Emerald said:

Ok, let's take SL sex as an example of *one* of the kinds of activities that people in SL like to do. Most of us have probably engaged in SL sex at some time.

We don't know what percentage engaged in SL in their first month here

LL are capable of knowing, just looking at who flips Adult content on is a solid indicator of intent.

7 minutes ago, Persephone Emerald said:

There are alot of different flavors of sexual activity though, and not everyone is interested in BDSM......

That's the thing , "sex" isn't a singular event or act. It's a very broad term that tends to be a part of almost every community in one way or another. Even tinnies .. don't wanna know, really don't.

Sailing (something I am just getting into) is actually fun .. but I think it's disingenuous to pretend that the "boats" aren't actually mobile floating sex beds (even the free boats I've gotten from Drivers). Sure .. sex free boats do exist if someone wants to make a point of being sex free and wants to go out and buy one.

For me, dancing solo has always been a precursor to something under the sex umbrella, even if I'm not looking for it. Getting hit on is just normal.

Explorers .. finding other peoples homes / skyboxes to have sex in. (I wish they wouldn't find mine so often .. I just deleted my home after logging in to yet another aroused 7 year old duck walker painting the place).

Building . Oh boy .. now ask what are they building. Exploring abandoned places is a pet hobby (really .. find a region, any region, start at ground level, center with draw set to 160, check out the builds and slowly fly all the way up). you're only going to need do this twice to see why I'm putting such a strong weight on "sex" as a (if not the) primary motivator for SL.

 

 

[Coffee Pancake]

20 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

Give people 5 slots to start with, and make them "earn" more.

Give them nothing, give them get one when the join the "Hunt for your Second Life" group.

The viewer needs to be barren when they start, just a a breadcrumb to unlock the first bits of UI. Follow the stupid robot ...

The first 10 minutes are critical, and we stall users out the gate with none standard controls and UI from their grandmas windows 2000 box.

In a complex game, you get 20 minutes. If your player isn't invested after 20 minutes. They walked.

 

[Sammy Huntsman]

25 minutes ago, Coffee Pancake said:

LL are capable of knowing, just looking at who flips Adult content on is a solid indicator of intent.

That's the thing , "sex" isn't a singular event or act. It's a very broad term that tends to be a part of almost every community in one way or another. Even tinnies .. don't wanna know, really don't.

Sailing (something I am just getting into) is actually fun .. but I think it's disingenuous to pretend that the "boats" aren't actually mobile floating sex beds (even the free boats I've gotten from Drivers). Sure .. sex free boats do exist if someone wants to make a point of being sex free and wants to go out and buy one.

For me, dancing solo has always been a precursor to something under the sex umbrella, even if I'm not looking for it. Getting hit on is just normal.

Explorers .. finding other peoples homes / skyboxes to have sex in. (I wish they wouldn't find mine so often .. I just deleted my home after logging in to yet another aroused 7 year old duck walker painting the place).

Building . Oh boy .. now ask what are they building. Exploring abandoned places is a pet hobby (really .. find a region, any region, start at ground level, center with draw set to 160, check out the builds and slowly fly all the way up). you're only going to need do this twice to see why I'm putting such a strong weight on "sex" as a (if not the) primary motivator for SL.

 

 

You really seem obsessed with sex, i mean each of these activities could have sex involved. But not eveyone will be going sailing, dancing and even exploring just to bang pixels. There are some pretty beautiful sims, that I just love exploring to look at the scenery and even admire someones decorating of the region. And yes it is part of every community, but it's a very broad assumption to say everyone is doing these actives just to bang pixels. 

[Sammy Huntsman]

28 minutes ago, Coffee Pancake said:

LL are capable of knowing, just looking at who flips Adult content on is a solid indicator of intent.

That's the thing , "sex" isn't a singular event or act. It's a very broad term that tends to be a part of almost every community in one way or another. Even tinnies .. don't wanna know, really don't.

Sailing (something I am just getting into) is actually fun .. but I think it's disingenuous to pretend that the "boats" aren't actually mobile floating sex beds (even the free boats I've gotten from Drivers). Sure .. sex free boats do exist if someone wants to make a point of being sex free and wants to go out and buy one.

For me, dancing solo has always been a precursor to something under the sex umbrella, even if I'm not looking for it. Getting hit on is just normal.

Explorers .. finding other peoples homes / skyboxes to have sex in. (I wish they wouldn't find mine so often .. I just deleted my home after logging in to yet another aroused 7 year old duck walker painting the place).

Building . Oh boy .. now ask what are they building. Exploring abandoned places is a pet hobby (really .. find a region, any region, start at ground level, center with draw set to 160, check out the builds and slowly fly all the way up). you're only going to need do this twice to see why I'm putting such a strong weight on "sex" as a (if not the) primary motivator for SL.

 

 

Can we just go with something more simplistic, I know you have probably played runescape or some sort of Fantasy game. Where it drops you in a tutorial world, or even Elder Scrolls dropping you in a dungeon and you learning stiuff along the way. Like when we initially pan in on the character, the character creation menu pops up and you have to work on your character. 

[Sammy Huntsman]

30 minutes ago, Coffee Pancake said:

Building . Oh boy .. now ask what are they building. Exploring abandoned places is a pet hobby (really .. find a region, any region, start at ground level, center with draw set to 160, check out the builds and slowly fly all the way up). you're only going to need do this twice to see why I'm putting such a strong weight on "sex" as a (if not the) primary motivator for SL.

by stating that it is the primary motivator, that is being disingenuous. You are making a broad statement as a fact, that may not be true at all. The fact that people keep on telling you this, and you basically go. But no you're wrong. Is annoying. People build for a whole host of reasons. I mean sure sexual activities and even 3D sexual innuendos may be part of it. But again, there are so many reasons why people build. 

[Silent Mistwalker]

1 hour ago, Caeruleiae said:

I didn't say anything at all about slex, or sex, or anything else. I think you need to go back and read what I was replying to. It was someone else saying some things shouldn't be added, not me. 

You implied that others do think it should go away with the bolded part. Intentionally or unintentionally. 

2 hours ago, Caeruleiae said:

 

I don't enjoy some of the other things people do but that doesn't mean I think those things should go away. 

Among those who do not partake of it all have seemed to accept the fact that it isn't going away* and wouldn't dream of forcing others to do without (and leave) and frankly, most of us really don't care that others do participate. We just want to be able to do our thing(s) just like those who are into sex want to do theirs. 

Aiming for one (or at one) specific demographic is what will kill SL quicker than anything else. There is already a quite varied demographic as it is so maybe what LL should be asking is what, besides sex, is keeping people logging in after the first session.

 

*and has been here all along

[Scylla Rhiadra]

21 minutes ago, Coffee Pancake said:

If your player isn't invested after 20 minutes. They walked.

Right.

Which is why if you force me to spend the first hour or two of my time in SL collecting "stamps," when what really sounded interesting was working on my avatar, or hearing live music and dancing, or even having sex, you've lost me.

Five slots is enough to let me join a few freebies or store groups, or maybe a club group, a sex group or whatever, but not enough to go on permanently: at some point, I'm going to have to do this -- and will likely benefit from it.

But don't force me to do it, because if I don't care about exploring, I'm going to hate it, and I'm going to leave.

Don't make me grind. If you're going to gamify it, at least ensure that there is enough choice so that multiple tastes are being catered for.

56 minutes ago, Sammy Huntsman said:

I want my newb to go on this epic fantasy style quest that is made of a few regions, to teach people the basics. Then at the end, it gives you a portal to the NUX hub, where they can learn more. 

Sort of the same as I said to Coffee above, except more so.

I couldn't care less about epic fantasy style quests. In fact, I'd hate it. For real. I don't much like LOTR, to be honest, I don't play D&D, and I don't read very much fantasy.

Make this an option so that those who do like it can do it. But if this had been forced on me when I started, I'd have lasted 5 minutes. Seriously.

[Sammy Huntsman]

1 minute ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

Right.

Which is why if you force me to spend the first hour or two of my time in SL collecting "stamps," when what really sounded interesting was working on my avatar, or hearing live music and dancing, or even having sex, you've lost me.

Five slots is enough to let me join a few freebies or store groups, or maybe a club group, a sex group or whatever, but not enough to go on permanently: at some point, I'm going to have to do this -- and will likely benefit from it.

But don't force me to do it, because if I don't care about exploring, I'm going to hate it, and I'm going to leave.

Don't make me grind. If you're going to gamify it, at least ensure that there is enough choice so that multiple tastes are being catered for.

Sort of the same as I said to Coffee above, except more so.

I couldn't care less about epic fantasy style quests. In fact, I'd hate it. For real. I don't much like LOTR, to be honest, I don't play D&D, and I don't read very much fantasy.

Make this an option so that those who do like it can do it. But if this had been forced on me when I started, I'd have lasted 5 minutes. Seriously.

I was thinking that at the NUX hub we use it as a teaching tool. As Abnor said we learn differently. So having a choice of the Nux hub with videos and that thing. People who want to learn via a gamified tutorial such as that. Can click a board and be whisked off to the fantasy rpg style tutorial. Just don't make me collect stamps around the grid to earn groups. I would get so bored so quick. 

[Silent Mistwalker]

1 hour ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

Nope, this seems like a viable idea to me, as essentially part of the tutorial process. It's a kind of gamification, but a useful one, and not too onerous or restricting. Give people 5 slots to start with, and make them "earn" more.

There are in fact lots of good ideas in this thread, many of which do involve some version of gamification.

And as soon as they find out basic accounts actually have 42 groups... oh boy.

[Sammy Huntsman]

Just now, Silent Mistwalker said:

And as soon as they find out basic accounts actually have 42 groups... oh boy.

I would be mad that I had access to 42 group slots, but had to earn them. By going around the grid collecting stamps. Like I am not going around the grid with only 5 and collecting stamps to earn 37 more. No thank you. 

[Scylla Rhiadra]

3 minutes ago, Sammy Huntsman said:

I was thinking that at the NUX hub we use it as a teaching tool. As Abnor said we learn differently. So having a choice of the Nux hub with videos and that thing. People who want to learn via a gamified tutorial such as that. Can click a board and be whisked off to the fantasy rpg style tutorial. Just don't make me collect stamps around the grid to earn groups. I would get so bored so quick.

Yes. Sounds good!

[Sammy Huntsman]

3 minutes ago, Silent Mistwalker said:

And as soon as they find out basic accounts actually have 42 groups... oh boy.

This is why I said a fantasy rpg style tutorial. It sounds more fun and less convoluted than having to grid hop, collecting stamps to earn more group spots. 

[Coffee Pancake]

1 minute ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

But don't force me to do it, because if I don't care about exploring, I'm going to hate it, and I'm going to leave.

But you're already here and established. You won't need to do it. you know how inventory works, and land, and clothing and avatars, and stuff and messaging and ...... 

If you're imagining someone out there just like you, coming here today .. I hate to say it, but we already lost them to more sensible platforms with a broader reach. Whatever this place was imagined to be when you joined almost 15 years ago, it's not, and those days are long past.

If you were looking for a suitable medium today, from scratch, this wouldn't even factor.

 

[Sammy Huntsman]

1 minute ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

Yes. Sounds good!

No need for a complicated grid hopping tutorial, where you only have 5 group spots and have to earn 37 more just going through the tutorial. Keep it simple. 

[Sammy Huntsman]

1 minute ago, Coffee Pancake said:

But you're already here and established. You won't need to do it. you know how inventory works, and land, and clothing and avatars, and stuff and messaging and ...... 

If you're imagining someone out there just like you, coming here today .. I hate to say it, but we already lost them to more sensible platforms with a broader reach. Whatever this place was imagined to be when you joined almost 15 years ago, it's not, and those days are long past.

If you were looking for a suitable medium today, from scratch, this wouldn't even factor.

 

Your way is way too overcomplicated, you have to keep it simple and fun. Going around the grid with a stamp book and collecting them. Just doesn't sound fun to me. I mean unless these people love collecting stamps rl. 

[Sammy Huntsman]

3 minutes ago, Coffee Pancake said:

But you're already here and established. You won't need to do it. you know how inventory works, and land, and clothing and avatars, and stuff and messaging and ...... 

If you're imagining someone out there just like you, coming here today .. I hate to say it, but we already lost them to more sensible platforms with a broader reach. Whatever this place was imagined to be when you joined almost 15 years ago, it's not, and those days are long past.

If you were looking for a suitable medium today, from scratch, this wouldn't even factor.

 

To add to my point about complicated. Your way is just as complicated as the old new user experience thing. We need to keep it simple.

[Silent Mistwalker]

7 minutes ago, Sammy Huntsman said:

I would be mad that I had access to 42 group slots, but had to earn them. By going around the grid collecting stamps. Like I am not going around the grid with only 5 and collecting stamps to earn 37 more. No thank you. 

I meant they would be mad once they found out they have only 5 groups when they should have 42 as a basic account. I know I would be pissed. And of course, LL might try to pull the same stunt they did not all that long ago and try reducing basic groups to give premiums more. That would piss a lot of people off. Again.

The idea kind of makes me think of restricting the number of offline messages newbs can receive. Basics get 15. Newbs get zero? 

The moment newbs start learning about such things is the moment they are gone. LL is pretty lucky so many of us oldbies have hung around so long.

Edited July 2, 2023 by Silent Mistwalker

[Fauve Aeon]

41 minutes ago, Coffee Pancake said:

who flips Adult content on is a solid indicator of intent.

Snip

this is a mistaken assumption, IMO. People I know toggle ‘all ratings’ to filter for a fuller search, especially on MP, and we’ve remarked on how much content unexpectedly gets a moderate or adult rating. I don’t think anyone really doubts or debates that sex inworld is an active and ongoing part of SL for many people, but I also think those who seek it as a primary focus probably don’t need it marketed very vigorously to them since they are already looking for it, it’s definitely here, and so they will find it. Teach them to filter out general and moderate and the adult content jumps right out. And that’s a good thing. 
 I’m in favor of a large laundry list of things to do inworld, the more creative the better, but also the everyday things that can connect us globally. Book clubs and poetry slams may not be as titillating as the adult content but I think it’s important for varied emphasis to be put on the many, many types of activities that forge connections between people here and generally provide lots of different types fulfillment in SL. Creative hobbies, purely social gatherings, charity work, appreciation of all the arts, in addition to sex, clubbing, decorating & shopping…you know - so many of the OTHER things that make up ‘a life’.