A real shame : Losing my faith in LL and SL

[Love Zhaoying]

1 hour ago, Mariusz Ivanovic said:

Something is broken for 10 years and you don't see the point in complaining about it? Wow! would you marry me please? 

Just because I put up with broken things doesn't mean I'm a masochist, so while I am flattered by your proposal, I respectfully decline. Feel free to continue..

 

[Mariusz Ivanovic]

As much as i appreciate you logging in at 3am to try and prove me wrong, you didn't really do what I asked. I get 0.0% packet loss when I'm IN a sim, I asked you to TP with your statistics up to see if you had ANY packet loss when you arrived. Do you people think that I'm not aware that packet loss is a bad thing? I know its bad, I know it can cause all kinds of issues. Is it what's causing possibly thousands of residents over the course of as some would say 10 YEARS to have not properly functioning friends lists? Probably not. Does the difference between a 0.0% packet loss and a 0.01 packet loss cause a basic feature as a friends list NOT FUNCTION? Probably not. Packet loss bad, I get it...You guys deflecting a clearly and admittedly by LL themselves BROKEN BASIC FUNCTION of SL...I don't get. This issue is not packet loss, its not a me problem, its an issue with SL and LL by their own admittance. 

[diamond Marchant]

3 hours ago, Mariusz Ivanovic said:

The fact the friends list and online status have not properly worked in OVER A YEAR

I think the responses to the OP may be focusing on the wrong thing. Yes, the OP has a specific issue... but don't we all have some issue with LL that really annoys us? I certainly do (don't get me started!)

Unlike other virtual worlds such as Fortnite or Roblox that have concurrent user counts in the millions, Second Life is stuck in the 40 thousand range and the trend is not favorable. The original investors departed years ago and the current investors are a black box. What we experience as "raising the rent" is more likely a simple attempt to keep a declining business going... fake it until you make it... where "make it" means selling the assets.  (speculation of course). In the larger world of media and metaverses, the world has moved on. AI and augmented reality are the current darlings. At the moment, we are all "weirdos on this bus."

These are the sunset days of Second Life. Enjoy it while it lasts, I certainly will try to. Linden Lab is going to try various things, some of which you will like and others, not so much. It is really nobody's fault, and certainly not the fault of the employees (Lindens) or the contractors (moles). They are on the same bus as us.

Edited May 27, 2023 by diamond Marchant

[Mariusz Ivanovic]

8 minutes ago, Henri Beauchamp said:

UDP packets loss is ”normal” and expected. UDP is not a reliable protocol (delivery of an UDP packet is never ensured and routers can drop such packets as they need when congestion happens). This is unlike TCP. Note that SL (server and viewer sides) got its own algorithms to detect packets loss and ask retransmission of important packets.

Unless you got a high packets loss rate (above 5% or so), you will likely not notice any issue at all in the viewer.

In any case, the ”missing online friends on login” issue is totally unrelated to UDP messaging (and happens even with 0 UDP packet lost).

Thank you, Henri for your informative posts and links to RELEVANT info for the topic. Your contributions are appreciated, even if you think I'm over-reacting   I can take valid criticism, but deflection, misleading irrelevant comments, and LL shills that permeate these forums...not so much. 

[Gwin LeShelle]

For real if I had a problem for over a year, and obviously not many other people have the same problem I would have gone through soooo many things that I had tried on my end by now. Like new router, nee cables, checking my hardware, even emptying my cramped hard drive would something be that I had tried, LAN or WLAN Experiments and so on, emptying caches updating drivers, Cleaninstallation lol all the small things that lead maybe nowhere but I would have tried them. But the only thing you seemed to do was watching your very large friendlist and ignoring that you have some packet loss. You should find out where this comes from at first. 

SL is a mess no doubt but packet loss as I said already should never happen and that would be the first thing I fix.

 

[Coffee Pancake]

 8 lost packets happened when I hit teleport and was on home region. Not on arrival to Busiest club on the grid.

0.0%

[Mariusz Ivanovic]

5 minutes ago, Gwin LeShelle said:

For real if I had a problem for over a year, and obviously not many other people have the same problem I would have gone through soooo many things that I had tried on my end by now. Like new router, nee cables, checking my hardware, even emptying my cramped hard drive would something be that I had tried, LAN or WLAN Experiments and so on, emptying caches updating drivers, Cleaninstallation lol all the small things that lead maybe nowhere but I would have tried them. But the only thing you seemed to do was watching your very large friendlist and ignoring that you have some packet loss. You should find out where this comes from at first. 

SL is a mess no doubt but packet loss as I said already should never happen and that would be the first thing I fix.

 

Many MANY people DO have the same problem, and the fact you don't is good for you, and you are in the minority. Thank you for the tips on system care and maintenance, and ensuring optimal internet connectivity. Who's saying I don't know about, or have done these things? Why do you assume I'm unaware of common troubleshooting techniques? Your posts would be very useful in "Beginners guide to Internet connection issues" but how they pertain to the topic at hand, just because you are not experiencing the issue, I'm not really sure what you are contributing, other than blaming me for problems I, along with 100's of other people I know that use SL experience on a daily basis.

[Maitimo]

I think it's a per-account thing rather than a SL-wide issue. Some accounts, and I think it's a small minority - have trouble seeing some other accounts on their friendslist when inworld. I had a friend (since passed away) who could never see me as online until after we'd exchanged an IM, even though I had all my settings correct. I got into the habit of messaging him every day just so he could see I was there. Somehow the IM triggered his account into seeing that mine really was online.

But this is much rarer than you think and I havent seen it happen with any other friends.

99% of the time this "bug" isn't even a bug at all; it's really just "friends" ghosting each other and being unwilling to admit it.

[Arielle Popstar]

3 hours ago, Mariusz Ivanovic said:

 

Unfortunately, the past few years seem to have shifted from a creative space, and interactive world, to just a cash grab to make as much money as possible while putting in as little effort as possible. This as it turns out, is making me want to leave SL for good over any other reason. 

Little effort as possible is what I see too. I have more faith in the lone unpaid, part time Opensim developer to resolve issues in a timely manner than the whole professional well paid development team here in Secondlife. Everything is soon™  and is pretty much a standing joke in the community. You'd think as a company they would consider it to be an embarrassment rather than wearing it like a badge of honour as the Lab seems to do. The friends list issue is of course just a tip of the ice berg that should be easily resolved. Considering your packet loss though I would suggest doing a traceroute to see if there is a network router issue on your particular path to S/L. That doesn't excuse the Lab as others including myself see issues too even without the packet loss. The dashboard itself regularly reports more friends as being online than it actually lists. begging the question of whether the number is overstated or it forgot to bold a couple some who are actually online.

Definitely been some price increases while shopping for those inworld busineses trying to cover the additional expenses while server development itself seems practically at a standstill. Guessing the extra income they been making is being invested in anything but S/L.

[Mariusz Ivanovic]

15 minutes ago, Arielle Popstar said:

Considering your packet loss though I would suggest doing a traceroute to see if there is a network router issue on your particular path to S/L.

I'm not having packet loss issues, it was just a "suggestion" from other posters to resolve this issue. I merely stated that 0.0% packet loss at all times and circumstances was pretty much impossible...You can hook 2 PC's together directly through a cable, and have packet loss...its an inevitability, but certainly NOT the cause of the issue of the SL friends list...unless maybe you have 75% packet loss or some ridiculous tin can internet connection with a VPN going through Uganda which re-routes through the South Pole via Patagonia.

Edited May 27, 2023 by Mariusz Ivanovic

[Persephone Emerald]

20 minutes ago, Maitimo said:

99% of the time this "bug" isn't even a bug at all; it's really just "friends" ghosting each other and being unwilling to admit it.

I "ghost" friends all the time when I just don't feel like chatting with people.

[Silent Mistwalker]

48 minutes ago, Mariusz Ivanovic said:

As much as i appreciate you logging in at 3am to try and prove me wrong, you didn't really do what I asked. I get 0.0% packet loss when I'm IN a sim, I asked you to TP with your statistics up to see if you had ANY packet loss when you arrived. Do you people think that I'm not aware that packet loss is a bad thing? I know its bad, I know it can cause all kinds of issues. Is it what's causing possibly thousands of residents over the course of as some would say 10 YEARS to have not properly functioning friends lists?

If, like the majority of casual computer users, they don't regularly reboot their modem, then yes.

[Coffee Pancake]

12 minutes ago, Mariusz Ivanovic said:

\unless maybe you have 75% packet loss or some ridiculous tin can internet connection 

Nooo no no no..

If you have 1% .. your SL is busted and broken and nothing loads or works right.

75% ? HA .. please.

[Arielle Popstar]

10 minutes ago, Mariusz Ivanovic said:

I'm not having packet loss issues, it was just a "suggestion" from other posters to resolve this issue. I merely stated that 0.0% packet loss at all times and circumstances was pretty much impossible...You can hook 2 PC's together directly through a cable, and have packet loss...its an inevitability, but certainly NOT the cause of the issue of the SL friends list...unless maybe you have 75% packet loss or some ridiculous tin can internet connection with a VPN going through Uganda which re-routes through the South Pole via Patagonia.

Yeah I get that the thrust of your OP wasn't specifically about the friends list but more the myriad of unresolved issues, ever increasing complexity along with the increasing prices which to my mind go above and beyond any inflationary pressures it might be experiencing. I do relate to the title of the thread though in that I too am losing more and more faith that the road the Lab is on is not going to end well. The platform could be so much more but it seems like bad policy choices are ultimately going to kill it not a lack of people who would keep supporting it if they could.

[Silent Mistwalker]

Here's another thought.

From time to time people have issues, and it turns out it was an issue with either the account itself or with the server the account was/is on. In the past, LL has moved a problematic account and the issue(s) have cleared up. Or they have had to go into the account and work some "script" magic.

Unfortunately, it isn't always an easy battle to win when trying to convince LL there is a problem when few to no one else is having the same issue.

Been there, done that, didn't want the t-shirt but in the end the results were worth it. 

Sometimes it just takes the support ticket landing in the right Linden's lap. Other times you just have to keep plugging away at it until you hit on the right Linden. LL is no different from any other company in that respect.

 

Edited May 27, 2023 by Silent Mistwalker
all I want for Christmas is a new keyboard

[Love Zhaoying]

56 minutes ago, diamond Marchant said:

These are the sunset days of Second Life.

Say it isn't so! I prefer, "Golden Years"!

[Love Zhaoying]

15 minutes ago, Persephone Emerald said:

I "ghost" friends all the time when I just don't feel like chatting with people.

Stahp ghosting me!!1!1!!

 

[Solar Legion]

Now we have entered the phase wherein there is not just simple complaining but an abject refusal to acknowledge basic reality ...

Some here were attempting to aid in troubleshooting and have gotten one of the usual types of response - "It's not me!"

When you've perfectly solved this issue - one that has plagued social systems since the bloody dawn of the Internet and of private message systems - do make certain to cash in on the solution.

As for the rest? Again, SSDD and the same closing thought applies: Do make certain to cash in when you've found that oh so perfect solution.

Edited May 27, 2023 by Solar Legion

[Love Zhaoying]

38 minutes ago, Maitimo said:

I think it's a per-account thing rather than a SL-wide issue. Some accounts, and I think it's a small minority - have trouble seeing some other accounts on their friendslist when inworld. I had a friend (since passed away) who could never see me as online until after we'd exchanged an IM, even though I had all my settings correct. I got into the habit of messaging him every day just so he could see I was there. Somehow the IM triggered his account into seeing that mine really was online.

But this is much rarer than you think and I havent seen it happen with any other friends.

99% of the time this "bug" isn't even a bug at all; it's really just "friends" ghosting each other and being unwilling to admit it.

That makes perfect sense because, the entire logic of "friends online" is based on comparing avatars online to YOUR list of friends.

[Mariusz Ivanovic]

22 minutes ago, Solar Legion said:

Now we have entered the phase wherein there is not just simple complaining but an abject refusal to acknowledge basic reality ...

Some here were attempting to aid in troubleshooting and have gotten one of the usual types of response - "It's not me!"

When you've perfectly solved this issue - one that has plagued social systems since the bloody dawn of the Internet and of private message systems - do make certain to cash in on the solution.

As for the rest? Again, SSDD and the same closing thought applies: Do make certain to cash in when you've found that oh so perfect solution.

So imagine this...you PAY to go on a cruise, you expect a certain level of value, luxury, amenities, and destinations. By no means did you go the cheap route, spared no expense, and when you get to the port, you get an inflatable raft that you have to row yourself, and to eat, a hot dog and soda, with a compass to point you in the right direction to far away travel destinations. Guess we found your dream vacation, huh Solar? SSDD Bon voyage sucker! Keep shillin my boy! Here is some basic reality for you...I pay for this service, and expect the features to work properly and fulfill my needs. a friends list is a BASIC FUNCTION of ANY social online interaction, and if you can't agree with that, then who's the one not acknowledging basic reality?

Edited May 27, 2023 by Mariusz Ivanovic

[Gwin LeShelle]

 

13 minutes ago, Mariusz Ivanovic said:

So imagine this...you PAY to go on a cruise, you expect a certain level of value, luxury, amenities, and destinations. By no means did you go the cheap route, spared no expense, and when you get to the port, you get an inflatable raft that you have to row yourself, and to eat, a hot dog and soda, with a compass to point you in the right direction to far away travel destinations. Guess we found your dream vacation, huh Solar? SSDD Bon voyage sucker! Keep shillin my boy! Here is some basic reality for you...I pay for this service, and expect the features to work properly and fulfill my needs. a friends list is a BASIC FUNCTION of ANY social online interaction, and if you can't agree with that, then who's the one not acknowledging basic reality?

Just a pro tip..when you act like a bag of clown noodles on a luxury cruise they will kick your ass no matter how much you paid. So you came here, disguising your one year cooked up rant as a question, and act now surprised that people offered help.

[Solar Legion]

That's nice. This isn't a cruise, get a better analogy if you're going to attempt to justify yourself here as that one does not hold up whatsoever.

In the meantime, how about you put that experience you have to good use? Go. Solve these issues, perfectly.

In the meantime, reality itself will keep on reminding you that issues like this will continue to happen until such a day as someone develops the perfect system.

That is the reality - deal with it. 

Don't want to? Tough, It's not going to change any time soon, anywhere.

No one whatsoever has stated that a friend's list is not a basic function of such programs. No one. What has been stated is that these systems universally have issues - be they ongoing or intermittent. Guess what? It is not as widespread as you wish to present.

Beginning, end. Go argue with and waste the time of someone else.

Edited May 27, 2023 by Solar Legion

[Mariusz Ivanovic]

1 minute ago, Solar Legion said:

That's nice. This isn't a cruise, get a better analogy if you're going to attempt to justify yourself here as that one does not hold up whatsoever.

In the meantime, how about you put that experience you have to good use? Go. Solve these issues, perfectly.

My analogy holds up fine, you think I should pay for the cruise, and if I don't like what I get, then I better know how to build a boat, and do it myself...Why give LL my money then? I'm PAYING for service, not to fix broken crap...get it? As for me acting surprised that people would help, I wasn't asking for help, but some people were more helpful than others. This was not a post asking to solve a technical issue I was having, I was merely stating my displeasure with the obvious downfall of something I love and care about, and asking if others expect more than what we are getting out of LL and/or what we put in. If I wanted technical assistance, I would have put in a ticket, and yes, this is more a rant and complaint, which is my right to do as a paying customer, who pays A LOT and is not seeing the value in return. The solution is stating my displeasure, not building my own online world, the users and residents of SL pretty much already do that anyways since most of the creativity I see in world comes from there, not LL. The least LL can do for its customers, and residents is provide a solid foundation for us to occupy and build on, its hard to do that with faulty building blocks that fall apart under pressure and get no to little quality control. I'll try to keep the analogies as simple as possible for you Solar...sorry if you find them confusing.

[Love Zhaoying]

5 hours ago, Mariusz Ivanovic said:

Unfortunately, the past few years seem to have shifted from a creative space, and interactive world, to just a cash grab to make as much money as possible while putting in as little effort as possible.

So, you're not a Creator?

Creators still thrive in Second Life, they don't all have to do it for "the money", in case the quoted part is some reference to the fact it is more difficult for Creators to "make a living" in Second Life.

Hard to dissect all your points, sorry. I was just looking for something that wasn't related to the "friends list" issue.

"Cash Grab".. if Second Life is too expensive for you, you can always go with a Basic / Free account.

I'm just confused by all your complaints, maybe you're unhappy for some unstated reason or combination of reasons? When someone posts a "rant", the reasons and actual meaning are usually very personal and the rest of us have trouble reading between the lines. 
 

[Solar Legion]

You'd best come up with far better material - heard this all before and from better.