New Feature: Scripted Agent Estate Access Discussion

[bunboxmomo]

5 minutes ago, M Peccable said:

You could go to the SL website, change one of your alts to "scripted agent", then see if they can get to your region. Caveat: There may be a delay in setting the alt's scripted agent status and when it actually takes effect in world.

As I understand based on my reading of the setting and Quartz's posts estate-wide setting would be reflected, but we were seeing about cases where an estate *does not* have the setting, but a *region owner* who is *not* the estate owner, would be able to set deny_bots on the region they have RO rights too.

Which unless I'm mistaken, I think Ayashe is talking about the typical usecase, where all renters are EMs of their own region, instead of being ROs.

What we were asking/talking about was if deny_bots can be enabled on an individual region inside an estate, without it being on the entire estate. That's what we reached out to ask/confirm.

Edited April 6, 2023 by bunboxmomo

[Ayashe Ninetails]

4 minutes ago, M Peccable said:

You could go to the SL website, change one of your alts to "scripted agent", then see if they can get to your region. Caveat: There may be a delay in setting the alt's scripted agent status and when it actually takes effect in world.

Thanks! That's definitely an option, but I really wouldn't go through that trouble. I was mostly just curious if it was a setting that was visible in the viewer to everyone who owns (rents) a parcel with an estate or not. It'd be kind of handy if so, but I really don't neeeed to know that info. I'm not having any real issues with bots on my own parcel that I can see (yet?).

 

1 minute ago, Quartz Mole said:

Take a look at https://lindenlab.freshdesk.com/support/solutions/articles/31000169561-scripted-agent-estate-access-faq#How-do-I-confirm-that-my-region-is-obeying-the-Estate-setting-for-deny_bots?

While obviously you need to be an Estate Manager to change the access settings using the console window,  you might be able to check whether the setting is on or off by using the:

• Open the Region Debug window from the menu item:
  Develop > Consoles > Region Debug Console

• Type into the command line:

get deny_bots

Thanks, Quartz! I'll check that out.

[belindacarson]

6 minutes ago, bunboxmomo said:

I'm just going to start ignoring you at this point, I'm sorry but I've tried in good faith to talk with you about this multiple times and it's just being met with hostility and my actual question ignored/distorted each time.
 

I don't feel there is a good faith exchange going on so it's better we leave it there.

oh, there's no hostility, or your questions ignored/distorted.

 

If you feel that you've misunderstood (or triggered by being corrected) your posting of incorrect information, including claiming to be able to scan for HUD attachments, which simply isn't possible, as opposed to my preferring to post correct information, then that's your choice of course.

 

I just prefer to see users provided with correct information.

[bunboxmomo]

Just now, belindacarson said:

oh, there's no hostility, or your questions ignored/distorted.

 

If you feel that you've misunderstood (or triggered by being corrected) your posting of incorrect information, including claiming to be able to scan for HUD attachments, which simply isn't possible, as opposed to my preferring to post correct information, then that's your choice of course.

 

I just prefer to see users provided with correct information.

Last post out of me in this sub-thread Beli.
Please actually read responses from Quartz?
This is getting silly. Ok thats all you get out of me now.

[Kristin Linden]

Hey folks!

I see there's a bit of confusion about the deny_bots flag and how it's available. This is an Estate Level access flag. You can find more information about this in our blog where it was announced:

Please keep in mind that if you only own 1 Private Region, that is considered an Estate on it's own - and you will be able to set any estate level flags as appropriate.

You can also check out our Scripted Agent Estate Access FAQ for more detailed information on how it works:

https://lindenlab.freshdesk.com/support/solutions/articles/31000169561-scripted-agent-estate-access-faq

I hope this clears things up for y'all!

[bunboxmomo]

6 minutes ago, Kristin Linden said:

Hey folks!

I see there's a bit of confusion about the deny_bots flag and how it's available. This is an Estate Level access flag. You can find more information about this in our blog where it was announced:

Please keep in mind that if you only own 1 Private Region, that is considered an Estate on it's own - and you will be able to set any estate level flags as appropriate.

You can also check out our Scripted Agent Estate Access FAQ for more detailed information on how it works:

https://lindenlab.freshdesk.com/support/solutions/articles/31000169561-scripted-agent-estate-access-faq

I hope this clears things up for y'all!

Thank you!
Yeah that clears it up, we appreciate it!

Ok so we do then have an implementation gap for private island regions where the estate owner is a land baron where the renting resident (Be they EM or Region Owner) is unable to implement the flag individually on the region.

Kristin, how viable would it be to add an additional region level deny_bots flag (of course an Estate level enabled flag would override the region level disabled flag)?

Edited April 6, 2023 by bunboxmomo

[Jaylinbridges]

19 minutes ago, Ayashe Ninetails said:

I could always ask them, but I'm with a company that owns over 900 regions, so um, I'd rather not bother customer service with a question like that

But you really should, that's why large land barons with thousands of regions have employees to answer questions.

If an estate owner gives ANYONE estate manager rights, they can change the bots flag for the region they where they have estate manager rights.  In Belli, a Linden owns all regions, but the renters can only own parcels, not full regions.  That is reason enough why it is an all on or all off block in Belli.

Edited April 6, 2023 by Jaylinbridges

[Arielle Popstar]

10 minutes ago, Istelathis said:

I don't think there is much they can do about it, outside of banning all bots entirely and actively seeking them out.  That would cause quite the uproar though, as people use them as NPCs for a variety of functions.  Which I can completely understand their perspective.  ........

.....Whatever does or does not happen, it is not going to be a simple solution that we can expect to be done in the short term future.  Banning bots entirely from SL is probably not a good idea until they find something that can replace their purpose though.

It seems to me from the updated scripted agent policy that they have given themselves the ability to start banning bots that take user data outside of SL. Also to be hoped that the Lab themselves are going to start blocking the linking to Profiles from external sites like we seen with the recent BB site. I'd assume that BB turned it off on their end but sure am curious if LL has stopped it from here.

 

Quote

 

Personal Data and Privacy Rights

Data transferred outside of the Second Life service or its supporting websites is not exempt from protection under applicable data privacy laws. This applies whether data is collected by Scripted Agents, LSL scripts, or external tools. Access to the Second Life service and access to Personal Data of Second Life Residents are both conditioned on adherence to all applicable global privacy regulations governing the collection, storage, processing, or transmission of Personal Data. These laws include Europe’s General Data Protection Regulation (GDPR) and the California Consumer Privacy Act (CCPA). We recommend that you seek guidance from a privacy attorney for additional, updated information before using Personal Data of Second Life Residents outside of Second Life.

 

 

Quote

This policy requires that third parties fully comply with applicable global privacy regulations. Linden Lab reserves the right to act where we see evidence of non-compliance with the Scripted Agent Policy or applicable privacy regulations. At our discretion, enforcement may include removing violating Scripted Agents and supporting scripts from Second Life, requesting explanations of Personal Data activities, requesting changes to how Automated Access mechanisms function, or suspending or terminating service.

Sure would like to see more focus on those aspects rather then all this back and forth on region vs estate bot settings. 

[Ayashe Ninetails]

1 minute ago, Jaylinbridges said:

But you really should, that's why large land barons with thousands of regions have employees to answer questions.

If an estate owner gives ANYONE estate manager rights, they can change the bots flag for the region they where they have estate manager rights.  In Belli, the  Linden owns all regions, but the renters can only own parcels, not full regions.  That is reason enough why it is an all on or all off block in Belli.

I just tried Quartz's suggested method and it appears the setting is off. That pretty much answered my question.

As for asking the CS reps if there are plans to enable it, I don't really feel it's necessary in my particular case since I'm not being bothered at home or anything. I was just being nosy and curious if they turned it on yet. 😄 It's such a new feature that I wouldn't be surprised if large estates are only just learning about the option to begin with. Now, if in the future, I've got bots landing on my couch day in and out, I might toss them a heads up, but as for now, I'm good. 

[Kristin Linden]

8 minutes ago, bunboxmomo said:

Thank you!
Yeah that clears it up, we appreciate it!

Ok so we do then have an implementation gap for private island regions where the estate owner is a land baron where the renting resident (Be they EM or Region Owner) is unable to implement the flag on the region.

Kristin, how viable would it be to add an additional region level deny_bots flag (of course an Estate level enabled flag would override the region level disabled flag)?

Unfortunately that's not in my wheelhouse as I'm not involved in the dev side of things, but you're more than welcome to file a feature request through JIRA.

If you have never filed a feature request, we have a handy dandy Knowledgebase page that will walk you through the process:

 

[Dyna Mole]

Please remember that if you have a personal disagreement with another resident, it doesn't belong here in the forums.  As always, hearty,  even vigorous debate is welcome as long as it is on topic.

[Jaylinbridges]

It is possible to "rent" a full region from Zoha Islands, one of the largest land companies in SL, and STLL have full Estates Rights for only your region you are renting.  I don't know how Zoha accomplishes this, given all the Linden responses here, but they do. And this also agrees with what Belinda has said by testing on the homestead they rent.

That is why I said you need to ask the land barons.  It is possible the Moles and Lindens here are missing an option.  Or perhaps Zoha assigns all full sim rentals as a unique estate.   From their full private sim info page:

https://blog.zoha-islands.com/zoha-islands-promotion-full-prim-sim/

Do you want to have your own FULL PRIM sim but don’t want to invest 600.00 US$ to buy your sim from Linden Lab?

Then we have THE solution for you!
Rent a stand alone Full Prim Sim from ZoHa Islands: 65,536 m² – 20,000 prims

FULL Estate Manager Rights:

Monitor script usage, collissions and lag.

Restart your sim when needed.

Write your own covenant: your sim, your rules!

Reselling and reclaiming of land allowed.

Change the rating of the sim into general, moderate or adult.

Up to 7 Estate Managers.

Send messages to all users on a sim via a popup notification.

Up to 100 avatars at one moment on the sim.

Enable/disable land resell, land divide, fly, terraforming, pushing, scripts, collissions,

physics, voice, direct TP, …

Change the elevation ranges and terrain textures of the sim into grass, beach, snow, …

Change the object bonus, default water height and sun settings.

Return all scripted and/or non scipted objects of one user from the sim.

Allow/block public or group access.

Ban users estate wide.

…, …, …

When needed the name of your SIM can be chosen at the following cost:
One time fee of 13,450 L$ or 50.00 US$ via PayPal.

Edited April 6, 2023 by Jaylinbridges

[Love Zhaoying]

Catching up on the thread..it got lively!

Glad it didn't just quietly stop, looks like there was some good knowledge transfer.

[Rowan Amore]

As abilities for estate managers are assigned by the estate owner, they vary from position to position.   While some estate.companies may allow for changing of certain aspects of the region you rent, not all will do so.   

 

[belindacarson]

1 minute ago, Rowan Amore said:

As abilities for estate managers are assigned by the estate owner, they vary from position to position.   While some estate.companies may allow for changing of certain aspects of the region you rent, not all will do so.   

 

it's all or nothing.  Please, don't post incorrect information, it only adds to the issues.

 

If a renter is granted EM rights to a sim, it's FULL EM rights, not a pick'n'mix sweet assortment.

[Jaylinbridges]

10 minutes ago, Rowan Amore said:

While some estate.companies may allow for changing of certain aspects of the region you rent, not all will do so.   

But that is not what the Lindens, Moles, and a certain poster is claiming,  It is frankly ridiculous to think a land baron owning 1000 full private regions, can can only flip the bot flag on all 1000 regions.  Anyway I will ask Zoha.  The impression that only the largest estate companies must change the bot flag  for all estates at once is simply incorrect.

Edited April 6, 2023 by Jaylinbridges

[Rowan Amore]

5 minutes ago, Jaylinbridges said:

The impression that only the largest estate companies must change the bot flag  for all estates is simply incorrect.

If I owned my private estate or two, I could turn it on.  

[Jaylinbridges]

1 minute ago, Rowan Amore said:

If I owned my private estate or two, I could turn it on

And if you RENTED your private estate or region from a land company, you could also turn it on or off. That option is up to the land company that owns the region. 

[Rowan Amore]

Abilities

As abilities for estate managers are assigned by the estate owner, they vary from position to position. Many of these abilities are described below, but may not be available to all estate managers. 

4 minutes ago, Jaylinbridges said:

That option is up to the land company that owns the region. 

That's what I'm talking about.  The Estate owner.  The one who pay LL.

[bunboxmomo]

Quote

It is frankly ridiculous to think a land baron owning 1000 full private regions, can can only flip the bot flag on all 1000 regions.

Yes it is rediculous, but that's what has just been confirmed and I think we all agree we'd like this to be applyable for regions too. If you're not even going to listen to actual lindens on this now, there is no point in this discussion because you aren't listening to actual things that actual staff are bringing to the thread and this is going to go nowhere. Lets try have an actual discussion.

 

Also

Estate Manager is not the same thing as Region Owner.

Region Owner gives *ontop of EM access* abilities to control other things, such as the RAW that is used for the terrain map.
While EMs have terraforming permissions, they do *not* have the ability to bake, download or upload RAWS. This is limited to RO.

Zoha is offering you *EM* rights there, not *RO* rights.

This appears to be the source of the confusion so let me repeat this in clear not uncertain terms.

Estate Manager is NOT the same as Region Owner.
Region Owner is inbetween the permissions of Estate Manager and Estate Owner.

You can be assigned to an EM position of a region by the Region Owner.

Some barons give RO permissions *and* EM permissions, some ONLY give EM permissions.

Region Owner has access to some permissions that EM does not. (RAWs for example)

You can be an EM of one, multiple or all regions within an Estate.

Please consider, if your own understanding is conflicting with information given by the lindens themselves, it is possible that your own understanding may be mistaken or the method by which you tested may be mistaken, or you may be misunderstanding what is being said.

But all that aside, that's not what we're talking about (or trying to, but this is getting very noisy static on the line)
What is being said, is that because there is no region level setting for this in the backend, this ends up solely an estate wide permission (as the lindens themselves have confirmed). The result of this is that in the case of mega-estates like those of land barons that rent out full regions (and give EITHER EM OR RO OR BOTH), that these regions are unable to apply deny_bots without it affecting the entire region.

I understand some people here are very attached to their positions, but we've had linden confirmation of this, can we please move forwards on this and discuss ideas for a feature we can suggest on the JIRA that will allow the vast amount of private islands that are baron owned, to also be able to choose to deny_bots without having to convince an estate owner to apply this to the hundreds of regions they own, as in most cases an EO would generally refuse to do this due to the different needs of their customers, leaving these regions as a result unable to ban bots.

 

 

Edited April 6, 2023 by bunboxmomo

[belindacarson]

5 minutes ago, bunboxmomo said:

Yes it is rediculous, but that's what has just been confirmed and I think we all agree we'd like this to be applyable for regions too. If you're not even going to listen to actual lindens on this now, there is no point in this discussion because you aren't listening to actual things that actual staff are bringing to the thread and this is going to go nowhere. Lets try have an actual discussion.

 

Also

Estate Manager is not the same thing as Region Owner.

Region Owner gives *ontop of EM access* abilities to control other things, such as the RAW that is used for the terrain map.
While EMs have terraforming permissions, they do *not* have the ability to bake, download or upload RAWS. This is limited to RO.

Zoha is offering you *EM* rights there, not *RO* rights.

This appears to be the source of the confusion so let me repeat this in clear not uncertain terms.

Estate Manager is NOT the same as Region Owner.
Region Owner is inbetween the permissions of Estate Manager and Estate Owner.

You can be assigned to an EM position of a region by the Region Owner.

Some barons give RO permissions *and* EM permissions, some ONLY give EM permissions.

Region Owner has access to some permissions that EM does not. (RAWs for example)

You can be an EM of one, multiple or all regions within an Estate.

Please consider, if your own understanding is conflicting with information given by the lindens themselves, it is possible that your own understanding may be mistaken or the method by which you tested may be mistaken, or you may be misunderstanding what is being said.

But all that aside, that's not what we're talking about (or trying to, but this is getting very noisy static on the line)
What is being said, is that because there is no region level setting for this in the backend, this ends up solely an estate wide permission (as the lindens themselves have confirmed). The result of this is that in the case of mega-estates like those of land barons that rent out full regions (and give EITHER EM OR RO OR BOTH), that these regions are unable to apply deny_bots without it affecting the entire region.

I understand some people here are very attached to their positions, but we've had linden confirmation of this, can we please move forwards on this and discuss ideas for a feature we can suggest on the JIRA that will allow the vast amount of private islands that are baron owned, to also be able to choose to deny_bots without having to convince an estate owner to apply this to the hundreds of regions they own, as in most cases an EO would generally refuse to do this due to the different needs of their customers, leaving these regions as a result unable to ban bots.

 

 

You're still posting incorrect information, including claiming you can scan for a user's HUD attachments which simply isn't possible.

So other users, like me, are having to post conflicting posts by yourself where we have tested our information and found it to be correct so that we are giving users the correct information so that they can make a fully informed decision, without referring to your post that leads them to incorrect information that can wrongly lead them to the wrong conclusions, whereas giving them the correct information (such as i posted) can lead them to make the correct, informed decisions as they have the actual, correct facts in front of them.

[Jaylinbridges]

9 minutes ago, bunboxmomo said:

If you're not even going to listen to actual lindens on this now, there is no point in this discussion because you aren't listening to actual things that actual staff are bringing to the thread and this is going to go nowhere. Lets try have an actual discussion.

The Linden response is not from the Lindens that specialize in land and land development.  Not all Lindens are experts in everything.   Testing shows your assumptions are wrong.  Zoha will explain how they can assign estate manager options on ONLY the region a renter "owns". Since they are in the land business, I will take their explanation as facts.

[bunboxmomo]

Just now, belindacarson said:

You're still posting incorrect information, including claiming you can scan for a user's HUD attachments which simply isn't possible.

So other users, like me, are having to post conflicting posts by yourself where we have tested our information and found it to be correct so that we are giving users the correct information so that they can make a fully informed decision, without referring to your post that leads them to incorrect information that can wrongly lead them to the wrong conclusions, whereas giving them the correct information (such as i posted) can lead them to make the correct, informed decisions as they have the actual, correct facts in front of them.

Beli, for god's sake. I have corrected that misremembering of mine from 10 years ago *THREE* times now.
But even then, just because I misremembered a detail from 10 years ago, does not mean you should be outright ignoring even what the lindens say.

Things are not that black and white.

[bunboxmomo]

19 minutes ago, Jaylinbridges said:

The Linden response is not from the Lindens that specialize in land and land development.  Not all Lindens are experts in everything.   Testing shows your assumptions are wrong.  Zoha will explain how they can assign estate manager options on ONLY the region a renter "owns". Since they are in the land business, I will take their explanation as facts.

.....so we're moving the goalposts and now apparently the lindens themselves must be mistaken because they're not the *right kind* of lindens, rather than considering *maybe* you're mistaken.
Ok.

 

This discussion serves no purpose if this is the circle it's going to go on.
Good luck to you all. Thankfully there are some reasonable and rational people here actually talking about things and I have faith the conversation will ultimately be benefitted by those people.
I'd hoped we could discuss it first to find something we all feel would be great to see, but this doesn't feel like this kind of discussion is going to happen, so I'll go ahead and make the JIRA request myself.

Take care all.

Edited April 6, 2023 by bunboxmomo

[bunboxmomo]

1 hour ago, Kristin Linden said:

Unfortunately that's not in my wheelhouse as I'm not involved in the dev side of things, but you're more than welcome to file a feature request through JIRA.

If you have never filed a feature request, we have a handy dandy Knowledgebase page that will walk you through the process:

 

Alright thanks, I went ahead and made a JIRA new feature request.