New Feature: Scripted Agent Estate Access Discussion

[xDancingStarx]

44 minutes ago, benchthis said:

So there are bots that are alts and then there are bots controlled by a main or alt

The so called "TrafficBots" shouldn't be part of this thread (in my opinion), because this thread is about "Scripted Agents" and accounts declared as "Scripted Agent". Nothing needs to be scripted or automated on a "TrafficBot". A TrafficBot has "Bot" in the name, but it can be any non bot viewer that is just parked. It doesn't need to do anything. In fact, it would be easier for the average user to just park a text viewer than to set up an actual scripted agent / Bot to just stand there.

Edited April 3, 2023 by xDancingStarx

[benchthis]

1 minute ago, Rowan Amore said:

Call them what you will but they are using them to game traffic.  A bot can be a standard avatar.  That many "alts" way up, hidden from view, are in most cases, unregistered bots used to game traffic.

I used to list like 30 objects perday on marketplace, noticed very unusual trends between listing. It's almost like bots are listing content to the marketplace, I guess I could track them, but just odd think I just thought of. Gaming marketplace traffic too. 

[Rowan Amore]

2 minutes ago, xDancingStarx said:

The so called "TrafficBots" shouldn't be part of this thread, because this thread is about "Scripted Agents" and accounts declared as "Scripted Agent". Nothing needs to be scripted or automated on a "TrafficBot". A TrafficBot has "Bot" in the name, but it can be any non bot viewer that is just parked. It doesn't need to do anything. In fact, it would be easier for the average user to just park a text viewer than to set up an actual scripted agent / Bot to just stand there.

But they should be registered as scripted agents which wouldn't effect traffic.  Traffic bots aren't allowed.

[xDancingStarx]

5 minutes ago, Rowan Amore said:

But they should be registered as scripted agents which wouldn't effect traffic.

I get you, but then people wouldn't put them there because their sole purpose is to boost traffic.

Also technically it's really tough. Since you're asking someone to declare something as "scripted agent" that is not a scripted agent. It's an unattended viewer.

Edited April 3, 2023 by xDancingStarx

[benchthis]

10 minutes ago, xDancingStarx said:

The so called "TrafficBots" shouldn't be part of this thread

my bad, I had to go back to see what the thread was about again, it all relates. I'm not being mental about it. Thanks never heard of a traffic bot, created them but never named them, not in sl. in rl. I do know, have experienced, and witnessed bots following residents, hench reason I suppose is why residents are complaining about more bot traffic to their estates. 

Edited April 3, 2023 by benchthis

[Love Zhaoying]

Kind of "interesting", how Bots / Scripted Agents, Traffic bots, "away alts", everything seems to come together in this thead.  As if, all these issues that weren't resolved "right"/"successfully" are coming back to bite us in the tuckus.

[Rowan Amore]

1 minute ago, xDancingStarx said:

I get you, but then people wouldn't put them there because their sole purpose is to boost traffic.

In the old bot policy, they said if you encountered something like I pictured, to not bother with reporting as they monitored traffic and handled such things on a regular basis.  HA!  I've seen clubs consistently for years being at the top of search with a platform full of unregistered avatars.  

In regards.to this thread's topic, does anyone really think the bad actors will register anything when it's been shown that LL will do nothing even if something is against policy?  

[Love Zhaoying]

6 minutes ago, Rowan Amore said:

as they monitored traffic and handled such things on a regular basis. 

Maybe the guy / gal who did that monitoring had a lot of tenure. Or only investigated the "biggest offenders", etc.  If they USED / had software that monitored and did something about it, then..it would be more effective.

[benchthis]

6 minutes ago, Love Zhaoying said:

Kind of "interesting", how Bots / Scripted Agents, Traffic bots, "away alts", everything seems to come together in this thead.  As if, all these issues that weren't resolved "right"/"successfully" are coming back to bite us in the tuckus.

this organic beast works just like real life. It goes way deeper, the experts are trying to deal with it. If I did not have this new feature on an estate I would never have an estate. I don't want things following me around tracking my interests and used for purposes unknown to me, something will already be able to follow me home, be ready when i'm at the initial location and follow me to other places I go. Multiple people and organizations are sitting back and watching every move we make in world. 

[benchthis]

10 minutes ago, Rowan Amore said:

In regards.to this thread's topic, does anyone really think the bad actors will register anything when it's been shown that LL will do nothing even if something is against policy?

If I was earning 1000s of dollars a day? week? nope. Nope I would not register s@#$

[Jennifer Boyle]

I have a couple of questions that I'm just curious about.

If someone had a stationary scripted object that collected the same kind of information that bonniebots do about every avatar that entered the region rezzed on their land in one or more regions, how would people feel about that? What if a non-scripted-agent avatar that was operated by a real person at the keyboard wore an attachment that collected information about every avatar in every region they visited? What if a large group of people did that and aggregated the data they collected?

Obviously, no one who travels to regions they don't control can be sure of avoiding the first of the above possibilities, and no one who enters regions where there are people they don't know well can avoid the second, and maybe not even then.

[Phil Deakins]

On the little bit about leaving non-bot avatars unattended... LL approves of it, so they wouldn't be treated as scripted agents that weren't registered.

How do I know that LL approves? Because LL promotes the use of the SpeedLight web browser viewer which can keep avatars logged in 24/7. LL offers it as a perk of the highest Premium membership. LL doesn't offer the viewer itself because they don't own it. They offer Gold level membership of the viewer, which means avatars can be logged in 24/7, and we all know that humans can't man them that long.

I've never agreed with the idea that an avatar logged in with a viewer, however thin, is effectively a bot if it's unmanned for some time, and should be registered as a scripted agent. It seems that LL doesn't agree with it too

 

 

[M Peccable]

3 minutes ago, Jennifer Boyle said:

I have a couple of questions that I'm just curious about.

If someone had a stationary scripted object that collected the same kind of information that bonniebots do about every avatar that entered the region rezzed on their land in one or more regions, how would people feel about that? What if a non-scripted-agent avatar that was operated by a real person at the keyboard wore an attachment that collected information about every avatar in every region they visited? What if a large group of people did that and aggregated the data they collected?

Obviously, no one who travels to regions they don't control can be sure of avoiding the first of the above possibilities, and no one who enters regions where there are people they don't know well can avoid the second, and maybe not even then.

That's why I think the only way to achieve the level of privacy on a virtual life that some people here are wanting is to is either shelter in place or abandon SL completely.

 

[benchthis]

7 minutes ago, Phil Deakins said:

leaving non-bot avatars unattended... LL approves of it

add that to the list of names they call it... unattended non bots... would that by like unscripted flowers? non human form.. what about the ghost bots.  

Edited April 3, 2023 by benchthis
slight mental break

[Scylla Rhiadra]

9 minutes ago, Jennifer Boyle said:

I have a couple of questions that I'm just curious about.

If someone had a stationary scripted object that collected the same kind of information that bonniebots do about every avatar that entered the region rezzed on their land in one or more regions, how would people feel about that? What if a non-scripted-agent avatar that was operated by a real person at the keyboard wore an attachment that collected information about every avatar in every region they visited? What if a large group of people did that and aggregated the data they collected?

Obviously, no one who travels to regions they don't control can be sure of avoiding the first of the above possibilities, and no one who enters regions where there are people they don't know well can avoid the second, and maybe not even then.

All of these things are now covered by both the Scripted Agent policy, and the note on the use of private data. "Scripted agents" has been redefined to include more than just conventional bots.

What that means is that a HUD, for instance, or a static object scraping data, are still covered by this policy.

And actually, there are HUDs available right now on the MP -- I've had one used to track my log-ins -- that are waaaaaay more invasive than a lot of what even bots were doing. So, it'll be interesting to see if those can now be reported. They'd be fine, under the current guidelines, if they were "opt-in," which is to say, required you to click a button in a dialog granting permission to be scanned.

What is still an unknown in this equation is enforcement. Will the new policies lead (eventually -- this isn't going to happen overnight) to things like purchased items that "phone home" asking permission to do so?

Dunno. I actually hope so, but it will take a while to see how this plays out.

[benchthis]

9 minutes ago, Phil Deakins said:

How do I know that LL approves? Because LL promotes the use of the SpeedLight web browser viewer which can keep avatars logged in 24/7. LL offers it as a perk of the highest Premium membership. LL doesn't offer the viewer itself because they don't own it.

how many instances of speedlight or is like app one download you can have alt on one tablet, and on another tablet can have same app with another alt bot or have a tablet emulator with several instances each with different remote locations. this ties back into the land and new ability to pay for land using linden dollars. 

[benchthis]

10 minutes ago, M Peccable said:

That's why I think the only way to achieve the level of privacy on a virtual life that some people here are wanting is to is either shelter in place or abandon SL completely.

exactly, vr in space will be amazing, no gravity. can be anything. Body can turn into a monster but no gravity, who cares. lol Until we are there I do not invest a lot of my personal life in technology, it's consuming enough. I do love a good sl party on the weekend. They are so wild. 

[benchthis]

7 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

They'd be fine, under the current guidelines, if they were "opt-in," which is to say, required you to click a button in a dialog granting permission to be scanned.

I don't even like clicking things bots send for permissions. I usually log out or to an unscripted area and detox. Good point and suggestion. 

Edited April 3, 2023 by benchthis

[M Peccable]

12 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

And actually, there are HUDs available right now on the MP -- I've had one used to track my log-ins -- that are waaaaaay more invasive than a lot of what even bots were doing. So, it'll be interesting to see if those can now be reported. They'd be fine, under the current guidelines, if they were "opt-in," which is to say, required you to click a button in a dialog granting permission to be scanned.

Hold on, a dialog box isn't needed. Let me quote Soft. As long as there is disclosure in a notecard, and you continue to use the product, there is consent:

Quote

Your best practices: Be transparent, and establish consent. For scripted objects that need to communicate with external servers in order to perform a function for the user, it's a good practice to have scripted objects disclose this fact to the resident in a notecard or in a dialog before using the device. If scripters are transparent about activities that could impact resident privacy and the resident then continues to use the script, then there is consent.

 

Edited April 3, 2023 by M Peccable

[EliseAnne85]

28 minutes ago, M Peccable said:

That's why I think the only way to achieve the level of privacy on a virtual life that some people here are wanting is to is either shelter in place or abandon SL completely.

 

The privacy policy or scripted agent official policy has been updated even if you use just an object with a data collection script.  

Personal Data and Privacy Rights

Data transferred outside of the Second Life service or its supporting websites is not exempt from protection under applicable data privacy laws. This applies whether data is collected by Scripted Agents, LSL scripts, or external tools. Access to the Second Life service and access to Personal Data of Second Life Residents are both conditioned on adherence to all applicable global privacy regulations governing the collection, storage, processing, or transmission of Personal Data. These laws include Europe’s General Data Protection Regulation (GDPR) and the California Consumer Privacy Act (CCPA). We recommend that you seek guidance from a privacy attorney for additional, updated information before using Personal Data of Second Life Residents outside of Second Life.

What is Personal Data?

To understand Personal Data, one first needs to understand Personally Identifiable Information.

Personally Identifiable Information, often abbreviated as PII, is information that is capable of identifying an individual user, account, computer, or household. Note that PII need not include the actual name of an individual. That the information can refer to any of the above alone or in conjunction with other data elements linkable with that information suffices to make it PII.

• Examples: A username, an agent ID, an IP address, or a tracking cookie are all examples of PII.

Personal Data includes all PII. Any additional information that one links to this PII also becomes Personal Data.

• Examples: When one of the above examples of PII is combined with the contents of a Resident’s profile page, their online status, their chat, or their in-world travel behaviors, the PII and the linked data all become Personal Data.

Edited April 3, 2023 by EliseAnne85

[benchthis]

11 minutes ago, M Peccable said:

Hold on, a dialog box isn't needed. As long as there is disclosure in a notecard, and you continue to use the product, there is consent:

still little confused on what a scripted agent is. like teleporting to a region, a charity for a really rando event i'm hit with group invites during teleport and bunch of pop ups I do not understand to agree to, are those scripted agents? phantom scripted agent

A top level consent. Do not send this resident anything because if you do you will be sending it to be processed as a violation of terms. 

Edited April 3, 2023 by benchthis

[Paul Hexem]

Wait, if we're excluding "alts in a skybox that boost traffic" from the discussion, then we're literally only talking about ways to punish people that are trying to follow the rules.

Is that really where the discussion is going?

[M Peccable]

8 minutes ago, EliseAnne85 said:

The privacy policy or scripted agent official policy has been updated even if you use just an object with a data collection script.

I understand. But I think the point of Jennifer's questions is that a device that's just sitting there, or a regular avatar wearing a scripted object, can be collecting all the data a bot can and no one would ever know. Sure, it would be breaking the rules, but that is no different than bad bots. So even if all bots are banned, there will still be scripted objects and avatars everywhere that are collecting data. You can't ban all objects and you can't ban all avatars, so how does one protect themself?

Edited April 3, 2023 by M Peccable

[Quartz Mole]

3 hours ago, EliseAnne85 said:

I just wanted to make something clear *because* I could have sworn someone in this thread said SCRIPTED AGENTS *do NOT* add to the traffic count.  Yes, they DO!   I don't know why someone would say that and it not be challenged in this thread - because, again, yes scripted agents add to the traffic count.  

 

I've double-checked this with the appropriate Lindens and they confirm that, provided (e.g.) a greeter bot in a club is registered as a scripted agent, it doesn't count towards that club's traffic.   

That's what the wiki article means (and it's been revised to clarify this).

If the bot is not registered, it will show up in the traffic stats,, but that is a violation of the scripted agent policy and someone notices the bot greeter isn't registered, they should AR it and appropriate steps will be taken.

Certainly, though, registered scripted agents do not count towards traffic.

 

Edited April 3, 2023 by Quartz Mole

[EliseAnne85]

1 minute ago, M Peccable said:

I understand. But I think the point of Jennifer's questions is that a device that's just sitting there, or a regular avatar wearing a scripted object, can be collecting all the data a bot can and no one would ever know. Sure, it would be breaking the rules, but that is no different than bad bots. So even if all bots are banned, there will still be scripted objects and avatars everywhere that are collecting data. You can't ban all objects and you can't ban all avatars, so how does one protect themself?

The bot owner cannot do anything with it outside of SL, so the bot owner collecting stuff is a) either nuts or b) has too much time on their hands and needs to get a life.

What is Personal Data?

To understand Personal Data, one first needs to understand Personally Identifiable Information.

Personally Identifiable Information, often abbreviated as PII, is information that is capable of identifying an individual user, account, computer, or household. Note that PII need not include the actual name of an individual. That the information can refer to any of the above alone or in conjunction with other data elements linkable with that information suffices to make it PII.

• Examples: A username, an agent ID, an IP address, or a tracking cookie are all examples of PII.

Personal Data includes all PII. Any additional information that one links to this PII also becomes Personal Data.

• Examples: When one of the above examples of PII is combined with the contents of a Resident’s profile page, their online status, their chat, or their in-world travel behaviors, the PII and the linked data all become Personal Data.