The bot war is over and the bot farmers have won :-(

[benchthis]

There was a war of bots?? I had the best conversation with a bot the other day. It was really good. Freaked me out and others in world I think when it was realized, then proceed to give me a satisfaction survey lol. I don't think they understand happy and sad sadness. Busted pretty easily. 

[Love Zhaoying]

3 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

I rather wish we could stop employing words like "paranoia" to describe one particular perspective on this issue. It is literally almost the definition of "gaslighting."

All the hyperbole does get annoying, that's for certain.

[Scylla Rhiadra]

Just now, Love Zhaoying said:

All the hyperbole does get annoying, that's for certain.

On all sides, yes.

[benchthis]

2 minutes ago, benchthis said:

holy s@# bots are hacking linden homes. i'm staying out of this.

why would anyone like to hack a parcel, unless to really homested like elvis did in that angel movie. Edit: follow your dreams; i think is what it's called. guess I should not fast forward convo. nm. gosh going to get in so much trouble for rambling. Please remove this ramblige. I'm taking my crazyiness in world. see you there. 

Edited March 27, 2023 by benchthis

[Love Zhaoying]

2 minutes ago, benchthis said:

why would anyone like to hack a parcel

Example of hyperbole: Maybe they can collapse the houses upon us, like one of the death machines in the "Saw" movies. We'd be trapped forever.

[Dyna Mole]

Time out, team!

Things are sliding rapidly off topic and into personal name calling. Please try very hard to keep on track and avoid comments that are intended to provoke angry responses.

[Sid Nagy]

I think most is said by now by all sides about the issue.

I'm glad that LL is moving forward to give it a try to tackle the issue. It is hard and complicated for sure to find a way that somehow works for all in this matter.
Bots really can be important to use inworld and that makes it harder to find the ones that abuse or game gathered information.

Hopefully these first steps will turn out to be a success.

Edited March 27, 2023 by Sid Nagy
Englisn, as always. (I should put this line in my sig, that would save a lot of time for me)

[Innula Zenovka]

On 3/26/2023 at 10:22 PM, Count Burks said:

The example I did provide is basic, yet there would certainly be a market for it.

So you say, and yet no one, in the almost 20-odd years that SL has been going, has yet taken it upon themselves to offer such a service,  though at various times people have certainly set up as SL private eyes, not just as role-play but also offering, for a fee, to find out what your partner is up, and I am sure I remember once reading about someone who offered virtual "honeypot" entrapments, so you could find out how well your partner behaved when given the opportunity to misbehave.    

And I've certainly known people whose vindictive and obsessive exes have gone to frightening lengths to track them round SL harassing them.    

The capability to do what you describe has been around as long as bots have but it's yet to happen.

Personally, I'd rather try to deal with actual problems rather than hypothetical ones that could theoretically happen but, in 20 years, have yet actually to occur in the wild.

The only two actual complaints about bots of which I'm aware in the current outbreak of concern are the publication online of highly speculative figures about people's marketplace sales, and the publication of some very badly indexed SL profiles in the same place (I had to struggle to find mine).     

Other than the fact that the website belongs to a business that runs bots for what seem to me to be perfectly legitimate purposes -- trying to identify regions where bona fide events are taking place, and trying to track regions on Belliseria with vacant parcels -- I can't see what the connection with bots is,  They may be involved in grabbing SL profiles (I just don't know what role bots play in that automated process, but I guess at least they may provide the uuids to feed into whatever's pulling the profiles) but it's hardly a core part of the business if they are.

What other than that do we know bots are doing that's objectionable?   Not objectionable stuff that they might be doing, or might possibly do at some point in the future, but bad things they're actually doing right now?   

Turning up on people's land unexpectedly, certainly, though it's not just bots that do that, of course, and we do have land tools to mitigate the problem, but what else?

I suppose we count ourselves fortunate that SL moral panics are about things like bots, while First Life ones are considerably more serious and sinister. 

 

Edited March 27, 2023 by Innula Zenovka

[benchthis]

56 minutes ago, Dyna Mole said:

Time out, team!

Things are sliding rapidly off topic and into personal name calling. Please try very hard to keep on track and avoid comments that are intended to provoke angry responses.

Yes ma'am, as much as it does not seem like it sometimes we appreciate you. Soon you will have to deal more with trollbots and meanbots sadbots crazybots horrorbot romancebots. One feels badly for you. You should fight back with bots, that's what elon says should do, just suggestion, he might be right.

[Scylla Rhiadra]

1 hour ago, Sid Nagy said:

I'm glad that LL is moving forward to give it a try to tackle the issue. It is hard and complicated for sure to find a way that somehow works for all in this matter.

This is key. And, as you suggest, difficult to accomplish. You're absolutely right: there are lots of legitimate uses for bots. Even the bot-project-that-cannot-be-named is unquestionably providing some worthwhile and useful information.

The best answer, I think, in addition to general guidelines that prohibit the use of such data for the purposes of toxic behaviours, lies in providing us with the tools that will permit us to choose our relationships with bots. We should, for instance, be offered an opt-in for data collection, rather than the rather useless opt-out option (useless, because we'd have to know about the project in order to opt-out, by which time it may be too late).

LL's deployment of an estate manager's tool is a good move in the right direction because it empowers individual residents to make their own decisions about intrusions by scripted agents.

[Love Zhaoying]

4 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

LL's deployment of an estate manager's tool is a good move in the right direction because it empowers individual residents to make their own decisions about intrusions by scripted agents.

It's nice to not hear as much negativity from the "net detractors" - since LL *is* doing something! While somebody who shall remain nameless uses the term "fanboy" (what about "fangirls"?!), I prefer the term "net supporter".

Go Linden Lab!!

[Scylla Rhiadra]

12 minutes ago, Love Zhaoying said:

It's nice to not hear as much negativity from the "net detractors" - since LL *is* doing something! While somebody who shall remain nameless uses the term "fanboy" (what about "fangirls"?!), I prefer the term "net supporter".

Go Linden Lab!!

I have a number of criticisms of how LL has handled this whole situation, which I think I've amply articulated elsewhere.

However, early on in this little melodrama, in one of the first now-closed threads on the subject, I noted that LL had remained stubbornly silent on the subject of RedZone until they were ready to move -- which they ultimately did, decisively. I think I expressed some confidence then, which I still have, that LL is working at solutions behind the scenes (and there is lots of evidence of that), and that this will be resolved, finally, in  a reasonably satisfactory way.

[Solar Legion]

3 hours ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

I rather wish we could stop employing words like "paranoia" to describe one particular perspective on this issue. It is literally almost the definition of "gaslighting."

It should be possible to discuss this issue from different perspectives without resorting to dismissive and reductive language. Disagree about the importance of bots by all means if you wish, but please stop using this kind of ad homimem. It is neither civil nor constructive. Stick to the issues and the facts, perhaps?

Such as the fact that some are being such? That a good portion of this is either blown entirely out of proportion? among some of the usual fear mongering (and worse)?

Calling such out for exactly what it is is being "civil" and is being "constructive" - going around the drain with such perspectives is not constructive, it is not discussing any sort of issue whatsoever ...

Point blank: If you want to waste your time engaging them, feel free to do so. do not pretend that everyone must do so and do not pretend those calling such BS out are "gaslighting", engaging in ad hominem or any other actually dismissive BS.

There've been plenty responding to this thread (and the other, more specific ones prior) who have been willing to engage in actual discourse.

[Istelathis]

51 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

The best answer, I think, in addition to general guidelines that prohibit the use of such data for the purposes of toxic behaviours, lies in providing us with the tools that will permit us to choose our relationships with bots. We should, for instance, be offered an opt-in for data collection, rather than the rather useless opt-out option (useless, because we'd have to know about the project in order to opt-out, by which time it may be too late).

The problem with this, is that it provides a sense of security when in all fact, bots that are intended for malicious use might simply just not be registered as bots.  If someone wants to accumulate that data for whatever purpose they so desire, they can just create an army of disposable bots that will move freely along with all of the other avatars, scraping whatever data is available.

It doesn't really solve anything, other than bring comfort to people who feel that someone who would use bots for malicious intention actually cares about registering their army of bots as bots.  

[Scylla Rhiadra]

4 minutes ago, Istelathis said:

The problem with this, is that it provides a sense of security when in all fact, bots that are intended for malicious use might simply just not be registered as bots.  If someone wants to accumulate that data for whatever purpose they so desire, they can just create an army of disposable bots that will move freely along with all of the other avatars, scraping whatever data is available.

It doesn't really solve anything, other than bring comfort to people who feel that someone who would use bots for malicious intention actually cares about registering their army of bots as bots.  

This is indeed an issue, and I don't have a simple solution. In theory, the only effective way to counter the use of unregistered scripted agents might be some kind of tool that identifies them, possibly on the basis of behaviour (visiting 8 regions in the course of an hour, landing in the same spot, etc.). I don't know that there's an easier or more reliable way to detect them.

I will note that the new post from LL urges us to report those we suspect are unregistered bots -- which may suggest that they have some means of determination I don't know about. (Which, given my ignorance, is more than likely!)

I don't think that not establishing guidelines for bots, on the assumption that everyone will simply stop registering them, is a viable solution, because it just means that the behaviours people objected too are permitted to all scripted agents. And the existence of guidelines, as well as a registration program, means that when violations are detected, they can be dealt with.

[Love Zhaoying]

15 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

I will note that the new post from LL urges us to report those we suspect are unregistered bots

I missed this!

[Solar Legion]

12 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

This is indeed an issue, and I don't have a simple solution. In theory, the only effective way to counter the use of unregistered scripted agents might be some kind of tool that identifies them, possibly on the basis of behaviour (visiting 8 regions in the course of an hour, landing in the same spot, etc.). I don't know that there's an easier or more reliable way to detect them.

I will note that the new post from LL urges us to report those we suspect are unregistered bots -- which may suggest that they have some means of determination I don't know about. (Which, given my ignorance, is more than likely!)

I don't think that not establishing guidelines for bots, on the assumption that everyone will simply stop registering them, is a viable solution, because it just means that the behaviours people objected too are permitted to all scripted agents. And the existence of guidelines, as well as a registration program, means that when violations are detected, they can be dealt with.

What you describe in your theory is exactly what we do not need - a "tool" that can be weaponized.

Sadly it appears as those such suggestions may well be getting some traction (among others) - something we did not need whatsoever.

Congratulations are in order for some ... One less reason to bother going anywhere.

[Istelathis]

10 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

This is indeed an issue, and I don't have a simple solution. In theory, the only effective way to counter the use of unregistered scripted agents might be some kind of tool that identifies them, possibly on the basis of behaviour (visiting 8 regions in the course of an hour, landing in the same spot, etc.). I don't know that there's an easier or more reliable way to detect them.

They will just get more creative, but it is better than nothing.  At the very least people might be more appreciative that LL is taking their concerns more seriously.  On a funnier note, I am reminded of a king of the hill episode with this fix.

People who are worried about their profiles being being read by bots, should not rely on these quick fixes for privacy though, there will always be a way around it.  Short of removing anonymity I can't think of any way to prevent it from occurring, and I for one would not support removing such anonymity because then that just opens a whole other can of worms.

[Love Zhaoying]

One person's "BS" is another person's "fertilizer". I am reminded of a dramatization in which (if memory serves), Bess Truman told someone that she was trying to get Harry Truman to say "fertilizer" instead of boolshirt.

[Love Zhaoying]

5 minutes ago, Solar Legion said:

What you describe in your theory is exactly what we do not need - a "tool" that can be weaponized.

I brought up recently that any tool can be used as a weapon, and was accused of baiting! By..3 guesses who!!

[Solar Legion]

Just now, Love Zhaoying said:

I brought up recently that any tool can be used as a weapon, and was accused of baiting! By..3 guesses who!!

Some of the usual suspects that do not want to hear of nor read such things and refuse to accept that it does happen and should be avoided when/where possible.

There is a time and place wherein adding in new tools will have outcomes that outweigh the potential for misuse/weaponization. This is not one of them.

[Arielle Popstar]

4 minutes ago, Istelathis said:

They will just get more creative, but it is better than nothing.  At the very least people might be more appreciative that LL is taking their concerns more seriously.  On a funnier note, I am reminded of a king of the hill episode with this fix.

People who are worried about their profiles being being read by bots, should not rely on these quick fixes for privacy though, there will always be a way around it.  Short of removing anonymity I can't think of any way to prevent it from occurring, and I for one would not support removing such anonymity because then that just opens a whole other can of worms.

How does Facebook do it then? Searching names only gives you the name and maybe a picture and nothing else. If Facebook of all companies can hide profiles of people outside of the App itself, then surely Secondlife can too. And is to my mind, the least we should be able to expect.

[Arielle Popstar]

4 minutes ago, Solar Legion said:

Some of the usual suspects that do not want to hear of nor read such things and refuse to accept that it does happen and should be avoided when/where possible.

There is a time and place wherein adding in new tools will have outcomes that outweigh the potential for misuse/weaponization. This is not one of them.

You have something other then handwaving and opinion to back that up? 

[Istelathis]

6 minutes ago, Arielle Popstar said:

How does Facebook do it then? Searching names only gives you the name and maybe a picture and nothing else. If Facebook of all companies can hide profiles of people outside of the App itself, then surely Secondlife can too. And is to my mind, the least we should be able to expect.

You can opt to make your account private in FB to everyone besides friends, alternatively, as far as I am aware there is no anonymity on Facebook, you can to create an account there, but I think you have to provide a phone number if I remember correctly.  SL has the same tools, but people who want to have their profile open to the public and not to bots are going to have a very hard time finding that privacy.

Edited March 28, 2023 by Istelathis

[Arielle Popstar]

Just now, Istelathis said:

You can opt to make your account private in SL to everyone besides friends, alternatively, as far as I am aware there is no anonymity on Facebook, you can to create an account there, but I think you have to provide a phone number if I remember correctly.  SL has the same tools, but people who want to have their profile open to the public and not to bots are going to have a very hard time finding that privacy.

You can't make it private to the bots so what good is it? Worse then useless because it just gives a false sense of security.