Arielle Popstar Posted October 4, 2022 Share Posted October 4, 2022 (edited) 57 minutes ago, Coffee Pancake said: Nothing's impossible, it's just C++ .. so let me rephrase; Significantly more trouble than any independent developer with the programming skills, knowledge of the viewer, SL and Android would find to be worth it. Well again I know little about it all but would venture that getting Cool viewer to run on an Arm64 linux was probably quite a bit more work then that required to further convert it to an Arm64 Android. Certainly would be a greater percentage of potential users for android then there are for Pi's I would think. Edited October 4, 2022 by Arielle Popstar Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Henri Beauchamp Posted October 4, 2022 Share Posted October 4, 2022 39 minutes ago, Arielle Popstar said: Cool viewer to run on an Arm64 linux was probably quite a bit more work then that required to further convert it to an Arm64 Android Thanks to sse2neon.h it has been surprisingly painless (if you except the time the builder had to spend rebuilding all the pre-built libraries on his ARM64 system)... Adapting to Android is certainly possible (at least as long LL does not remove OpenGL v2.1 support, which could happen with the PBR viewer). Android is ”just” Linux by Google, but still has differences that would require code changes in the viewer itself. You may as well run Linux on most Android devices, but it sadly often requires quite a bit of hacking... 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coffee Pancake Posted October 4, 2022 Share Posted October 4, 2022 1 hour ago, Arielle Popstar said: Certainly would be a greater percentage of potential users for android then there are for Pi's I would think. I think you are seriously over estimating the capability of passively cooled mobile CPUS to run an application that is notoriously processor intensive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arielle Popstar Posted October 4, 2022 Share Posted October 4, 2022 2 hours ago, Coffee Pancake said: I think you are seriously over estimating the capability of passively cooled mobile CPUS to run an application that is notoriously processor intensive. I would say you are the the one seriously underestimating the capability of passively cooled mobile CPU's as my own use of Lumiya on multiple phones of various makes and models (except heat prone Samsungs) over the years has proven it has no issues with long sessions logged in to busy regions. Battery charge will be effected but that is going to be the case with any game or fairly graphic intense application. It is why one probably should have a charge cord with them when mobile. All the phones I have used with Lumiya lasted their expected life spans and more. From that testing I see no reason why an Android based cell or tablet would not be able to run a more capable viewer rather then the more limited and older Lumiya. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JeromFranzic Posted October 4, 2022 Share Posted October 4, 2022 15 minutes ago, Arielle Popstar said: I would say you are the the one seriously underestimating the capability of passively cooled mobile CPU's as my own use of Lumiya on multiple phones of various makes and models (except heat prone Samsungs) over the years has proven it has no issues with long sessions logged in to busy regions. Battery charge will be effected but that is going to be the case with any game or fairly graphic intense application. It is why one probably should have a charge cord with them when mobile. All the phones I have used with Lumiya lasted their expected life spans and more. From that testing I see no reason why an Android based cell or tablet would not be able to run a more capable viewer rather then the more limited and older Lumiya. I have to agree with this. I've overclocked several rooted Android devices, most of them from the lower end of the pile. One would expect that to do more damage than using SL. I still own some of them for fun and they all work, including a LG Optimus V phone from 2011. YMMV. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Solar Legion Posted October 4, 2022 Share Posted October 4, 2022 Lumiya was a pared down client/viewer - it had to be, to do what it did. It is also quite abandoned and will cease being able to log in or function well sooner rather than later. It has no bearing on current mobile viewer discussion outside of mentioning it as a historical footnote. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Love Zhaoying Posted October 4, 2022 Share Posted October 4, 2022 1 minute ago, Solar Legion said: Lumiya was a pared down client/viewer - it had to be, to do what it did. It is also quite abandoned and will cease being able to log in or function well sooner rather than later. It has no bearing on current mobile viewer discussion outside of mentioning it as a historical footnote. ..vs. Speedlight.io, which is in current, active development. Just sayin'! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coffee Pancake Posted October 4, 2022 Share Posted October 4, 2022 (edited) 1 hour ago, Arielle Popstar said: I see no reason why an Android based cell or tablet would not be able to run a more capable viewer rather then the more limited and older Lumiya. Except, and this is kind of the key point here .. there is no one with the time or programming chops to port the full fat LGPL viewer to a mobile platform, regardless of how convinced non-programmers are concerning its viability. It doesn't matter if you think it can or should work. Even LL have been unwilling to see this though despite several false starts. If they can't make a sustained business case and devote resources to making it happen, then quite how you can expect an external volunteer to step up and do it for "fun" is beyond me. Edited October 4, 2022 by Coffee Pancake Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arielle Popstar Posted October 4, 2022 Share Posted October 4, 2022 2 minutes ago, Solar Legion said: Lumiya was a pared down client/viewer - it had to be, to do what it did. It is also quite abandoned and will cease being able to log in or function well sooner rather than later. It has no bearing on current mobile viewer discussion outside of mentioning it as a historical footnote. It was mentioned in the context of the ability for Arm64 processors to handle a viewer, as it is the only parallel that one can use at this time. The same if comparing even cheap laptops and their ability to render the world with limited graphic settings. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arielle Popstar Posted October 4, 2022 Share Posted October 4, 2022 6 minutes ago, Coffee Pancake said: Except, and this is kind of the key point here .. there is no one with the time or programming chops to port the full fat LGPL viewer to a mobile platform, regardless of how convinced non-programmers are concerning its viability. It doesn't matter if you think it can or should work. Even LL have been unwilling to see this though despite several false starts. If they can't make a sustained business case and devote resources to making it happen, then quite how you can expect an external volunteer to step up and do it for "fun" is beyond me. Well first off, I suspect you don't speak for all those who have the chops available to do so but even then, my question which both you and Henry have answered to the affirmative is that yes, it is possible. Let's start from there. And yes, LL is unwilling. They rather someone that they don't have to pay do the work. They promised a year ago to update the status of a mobile capable viewer from their end and it is still crickets. Try not to give them further ammunition for why they shouldn't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Solar Legion Posted October 4, 2022 Share Posted October 4, 2022 (edited) It was mentioned in a poor attempt. It was a pared down/thinner client. Not a full variant. It has no place whatsoever in any sort of discussion concerning getting a full featured client/viewer running on ARM64. At all. Leave it out of anything outside of historical commentary - it does not belong anywhere else. If you are going to use it as such, make certain you're emphasizing its actual nature as well: A somewhat pared down client/viewer that was designed to be used on a mobile device. Edited October 4, 2022 by Solar Legion 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arielle Popstar Posted October 4, 2022 Share Posted October 4, 2022 8 minutes ago, Solar Legion said: It was mentioned in a poor attempt. It was a pared down/thinner client. Not a full variant. It has no place whatsoever in any sort of discussion concerning getting a full featured client/viewer running on ARM64. At all. Leave it out of anything outside of historical commentary - it does not belong anywhere else. You seem to be trolling, surprise surprise, but ignoring that, are you suggesting that a full fledged viewer would be too much for an Arm64 processor? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Solar Legion Posted October 4, 2022 Share Posted October 4, 2022 (edited) I am not "trolling" - disagreement with you does not equal trolling, no matter how much you might wish to believe it. As for getting a proper viewer running on ARM64? IO am in the "Prove to me it can actually be done" crowd. No, not one that must be compiled by the end user either. RasPi? Don't much care for the things - I stopped tinkering a long time ago. If you're asking about getting one working on Android specifically .... Again, prove it to me. Additional criteria for such: No rooting. No additional applications required (outside of perhaps the use of a secondary Store). No side loading (transfer of the APK via USB or Wireless File Sharing followed by local install or the use of a PC bound application to do the installation). Bit much? Bit strict? Don't much care - those're the criteria. I barely trusted Lumiya and was ready to change passwords and such at the drop of a hat while using it. There are a few Devs I have even less trust for, thanks to their overall attitudes. Happy? Edited October 5, 2022 by Solar Legion APK - not APH ... heck. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arielle Popstar Posted October 5, 2022 Share Posted October 5, 2022 3 hours ago, Solar Legion said: I am not "trolling" - disagreement with you does not equal trolling, no matter how much you might wish to believe it. As for getting a proper viewer running on ARM64? IO am in the "Prove to me it can actually be done" crowd. No, not one that must be compiled by the end user either. RasPi? Don't much care for the things - I stopped tinkering a long time ago. If you're asking about getting one working on Android specifically .... Again, prove it to me. Additional criteria for such: No rooting. No additional applications required (outside of perhaps the use of a secondary Store). No side loading (transfer of the APH via USB or Wireless File Sharing followed by local install or the use of a PC bound application to do the installation). Bit much? Bit strict? Don't much care - those're the criteria. I barely trusted Lumiya and was ready to change passwords and such at the drop of a hat while using it. There are a few Devs I have even less trust for, thanks to their overall attitudes. Happy? You haven't disagreed with anything I asked other then to offer your opinion on what you assumed the question was about. I wasn't asking you nor is up to me to prove anything. I am just interested in whether down the road I'll be able to use Cool viewer on a mobile platform. Whatever you read into my intent, is your own misunderstanding and since neither Lumiya or Cool viewer is of interest to you, maybe you might want to look at S/L's latest offering with Premium Plus and Speedlight. Have a nice day. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Solar Legion Posted October 5, 2022 Share Posted October 5, 2022 Lumiya is a walking corpse - it will cease to function/be able to log in at some point and there has been no active development on it for some time. It. Is. Irrelevant. To. All. But. Historical. Discussion/Anecdotes. CoolVL has no viewer listed for Android(or iOS) use - not through any official channels at any rate (meaning the relevant stores). I am sure the developer will be along at some point to offer a correction if such has changed. I have responded to your words and made my stance clear - no misunderstanding coming from this direction. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
animats Posted October 5, 2022 Share Posted October 5, 2022 (edited) For phone land, I think the way to go is cloud rendering. Then you can get full resolution on anything that can run Netflix, because the viewer is running on a dedicated server and just sending video to the user's device. But the cost! Google just killed Stadia (US$10/month), which means NVidia GeForce Now can raise their prices, or migrate users to their $20/month tier. Shadow, which is not a big company that can afford to do this as a loss leader, charges $30/month. Many other cloud gaming companies have tried charging less and went broke. One of the big frustrations of this metaverse stuff is that GPUs stopped getting cheaper around 2016. The NVidia 1060 with 6 GB was released in 2016 at $249. That's about what one costs used on eBay now. Today, NVidia has nothing significantly cheaper with 6GB. Edited October 5, 2022 by animats 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coffee Pancake Posted October 5, 2022 Share Posted October 5, 2022 (edited) 4 minutes ago, animats said: For phone land, I think the way to go is cloud rendering. Thing Is, we’ve been down this road and people didn’t want it, and those who did will ran extended sessions. Cloud rendering is all fine, till you have users putting in 8-16 hours days. Edited October 5, 2022 by Coffee Pancake I hate auto carrot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gavin Hird Posted October 5, 2022 Share Posted October 5, 2022 The iPhone and iPad processors – which are pretty much identical to the desktop M1 and M2 processors in terms of single core performance will not have any problems running a natively compiled viewer. As they have fewer GPU cores than the M1 and M2, they will not be able to achieve the same graphics performance, or support as large screens when driving an external display, but they will have no problems running it. There are plenty of gaming titles that runs these mobile processors at full blast, yet thermal issues are never reported for these devices. The culprit is or course that on the M1 and M2 processors the viewers are running Intel versions translated to Apple Silicon at first launch to run under Rosetta2. – Rosetta2 does not exist for anything but macOS, and is also using special instructions Apple added to their ARM processors to use Intel addressing modes, hence it is not available on non Apple ARM processors. To get at viewer running on Apple's mobile devices, and soon macOS, the viewer will have to be rewritten with Metal2 (or better Metal3) for the rendering, as there is no support for OpenGL at all on these devices. OpenGL support will also be removed from macOS at the time Apple removes their last Intel machines from marketing (Mac Pro and one specific config of the Mac mini). It looks like the time for this will be the second half of 2023. The delusion that exists in the Lab and some of the TPV community that one can make a viewer with Vulkan for Apple's devices is just that: A delusion and a fast track to no Mac support at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Henri Beauchamp Posted October 5, 2022 Share Posted October 5, 2022 1 hour ago, animats said: One of the big frustrations of this metaverse stuff is that GPUs stopped getting cheaper around 2016. And that's why I think the current work around the PBR viewer and the deprecation of the forward renderer (that is much lighter on weak/old GPUs, and that leads to a much lower power consumption on modern GPUs) is a mistake or at least on a bad timing... Add to that the skyrocketing energy costs which make SLers conscious about the power consumption of their computer, and you logically can deduce that any code change leading to raise the hardware ”minimum requirements” is a bad thing, at least for now... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Profaitchikenz Haiku Posted October 5, 2022 Share Posted October 5, 2022 18 hours ago, Henri Beauchamp said: Android is ”just” Linux by Google /me starts a scurrilous rumour that Google are going head-to-head with FussBook in the meta-business by forking OpenSimulator and a viewer to Android. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gavin Hird Posted October 5, 2022 Share Posted October 5, 2022 (edited) 3 minutes ago, Profaitchikenz Haiku said: /me starts a scurrilous rumour that Google are going head-to-head with FussBook in the meta-business by forking OpenSimulator and a viewer to Android. That rumor has been attempted started before. – Hogwash! Opensim does not scale at all – there is not a single implementation that has concurrency over 500 users. In addition, it would be the Linux version Google would be interested in forking, and given its dependency on the dead end mono, they might just as well start from scratch and create their own virtual world environment. Edited October 5, 2022 by Gavin Hird Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arielle Popstar Posted October 5, 2022 Share Posted October 5, 2022 4 minutes ago, Profaitchikenz Haiku said: /me starts a scurrilous rumour that Google are going head-to-head with FussBook in the meta-business by forking OpenSimulator and a viewer to Android. If you had of said Intel or even IBM it would warrant an actual checking into as both of those two companies dealt with Opensim for years and only shelved further development on their end 6-7 years ago. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gavin Hird Posted October 5, 2022 Share Posted October 5, 2022 Mentioning scalability; SecondLife is not very scalable at all, and that is perhaps the largest motivation for not making a mobile viewer. Imagine pushing a mobile viewer to the Google and Apple App stores, and have a few hundred thousand downloads all trying to log on to SL at the same time. The whole thing would immediately crash and burn, and the launch would be deemed a total fail. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Profaitchikenz Haiku Posted October 5, 2022 Share Posted October 5, 2022 8 minutes ago, Arielle Popstar said: If you had of said Intel or even IBM it would warrant an actual checking into as both of those two companies dealt with Opensim for years But neither have Android interests or any (stated) intentions to try and eat Fussbook's lunch. 15 minutes ago, Gavin Hird said: That rumor has been attempted started before. – Hogwash! Do I have to post the dictionary definition of "scurrilous" ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gavin Hird Posted October 5, 2022 Share Posted October 5, 2022 3 minutes ago, Profaitchikenz Haiku said: But neither have Android interests or any (stated) intentions to try and eat Fussbook's lunch. Do I have to post the dictionary definition of "scurrilous" ? Do you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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