Could Linden Lab even clean up Second Life if they wanted to?

[EliseAnne85]

9 hours ago, Luna Bliss said:

I just know I'd prefer not to land in a sim where women are being roasted, ground up, and eaten.

Always women.  Men don't taste good or something?

Anyway, whatever people are doing on this thread to help prevent that you have my vote.

I've come to realize in my latter years that men and women really do have different brains.

I do not think adding or signaling violent content is a bad idea at all, especially for newbies.

I was a newbie once.  I still remember the shock of the rap---- sims.  It upset me, to be quite frank.  I wouldn't want to be teleported to one of those either where they have r--- activities. 

SL, overall, imo, has an essence of honour in that it asks if you accept or decline for almost everything.  I think an alert to violence follows in that line of SL hospitality.  

[Love Zhaoying]

Hmmm..Hmmmmmm...

Experiences ask you to "Opt In".

So, there's that. Almost like a precedent.

 

[Kathlen Onyx]

Is this still a thread about cleaning up SL or hiding things you don't want to see? There is a big difference.

[Persephone Emerald]

3 minutes ago, Sam1 Bellisserian said:

Is this still a thread about cleaning up SL or hiding things you don't want to see? There is a big difference.

The 2 ideas seem related to me. If stuff is hidden, then SL will look cleaner to outsiders and newbies.

I don't care what people do with their avatars in private, but when it's on display for everyone to see, then it can affect SL's reputation. Also, if new people are scared away by an unpleasant experience, then they won't stay and pay to help support the platform.

[Kathlen Onyx]

4 minutes ago, Persephone Emerald said:

The 2 ideas seem related to me. If stuff is hidden, then SL will look cleaner to outsiders and newbies.

I don't care what people do with their avatars in private, but when it's on display for everyone to see, then it can affect SL's reputation. Also, if new people are scared away by an unpleasant experience, then they won't stay and pay to help support the platform.

Where exactly is it "on display for everyone to see"?  It's not like you log in and get hit with it. You have to actually seek it out. Most sims have exactly what they are about either in the name or the description because they actually want people to visit who want to be there.  Adding checkboxes isn't going to help people who don't bother reading in the first place. Unchecking "adult" removes 90% of those sims anyway in search and if you really don't want to see any of it then uncheck moderate as well.

You are also assuming that LL wants to improve their reputation. If that were true they would have done it years ago, not 16 years into it.  If all the things you want to hide to improve SL's "reputation" were hidden the grid would collapse very quickly.  I wouldn't be in such a hurry to make that content difficult for people to find because it's those people that are spending the money to support the grid.  

[Persephone Emerald]

33 minutes ago, Sam1 Bellisserian said:

Where exactly is it "on display for everyone to see"?  It's not like you log in and get hit with it. You have to actually seek it out. Most sims have exactly what they are about either in the name or the description because they actually want people to visit who want to be there.  Adding checkboxes isn't going to help people who don't bother reading in the first place. Unchecking "adult" removes 90% of those sims anyway in search and if you really don't want to see any of it then uncheck moderate as well.

You are also assuming that LL wants to improve their reputation. If that were true they would have done it years ago, not 16 years into it.  If all the things you want to hide to improve SL's "reputation" were hidden the grid would collapse very quickly.  I wouldn't be in such a hurry to make that content difficult for people to find because it's those people that are spending the money to support the grid.  

I find it hard to believe that you actually think I'm against most Adult content. Have you ever looked at my posts in other threads? I support all Moderate and nearly all Adult content. I just want better warnings so people who don't want to see such things are less likely to see it accidentally. 

Edited August 7, 2022 by Persephone Emerald

[Ayashe Ninetails]

29 minutes ago, Persephone Emerald said:

The 2 ideas seem related to me. If stuff is hidden, then SL will look cleaner to outsiders and newbies.

I don't care what people do with their avatars in private, but when it's on display for everyone to see, then it can affect SL's reputation. Also, if new people are scared away by an unpleasant experience, then they won't stay and pay to help support the platform.

I'm not sure I'm in favor of hiding any content as much as I am just labeling the potential for it to exist. I don't mind whatsoever if people want to make their sims as gross as humanly possible (and I'm all for that being wide out in the open with full, spelled out Search descriptions so I know not to head over). I'm not a big fan of TPing to a seemingly normal clothing store (one listed in a weekend sale weeks ago) and getting smacked in the face with dead bodies. I can think of several occasions over the last few years (and probably more many years ago) where that's happened.

I don't want that content removed (it's not my store, have at it!), but a bit of warning (or at least moving the TP point into the store itself so I'm not rezzing directly under/next to them) would've been cool. 😩

[Da5id Weatherwax]

Labelling or tagging or a more detailed rating system etc...

The problem there is where do you draw the line? There's almost NOTHING where you can say with certainty that not a single resident would "want to know in advance might be happening here"

At the moment, in SL, while the rules might differ from place to place, from region-rating to region-rating, the principle is that "Everything not forbidden is allowed" and LL's restrictions are broad and general - leaving it up to individual parcel owners to add additional more specific ones if they should feel it necessary or desirable to create the kind of space they want. At this level the slope is gentle and not too slippery yet.

Do you really want the creators of these spaces to have to wrack their brains listing everything that might happen on their land in fear of being reported for allowing somebody to (for a ridiculous example) roleplay as a warthog in their place when their labels and tags don't include "warthog roleplay" - because that's where it's going if we have to start whitelisting activities that can happen rather than blacklisting ones that can't.

Even without taking it to that extreme, you will face the problem of overlabelling. Suppose you operated an adult-themed place where consensual hookups and pixel-bumping were allowed. Obviously you'd list that. Now, you don't mind if a couple in your place get a little kinky during their hookup. You've set some limits - specifying a few kinks that you really don't want to see - but mostly your attitude is that if a couple (or threesome or even more) want to have consensual erotic fun on your land you're fine with it. If you don't list the kinky stuff in your tags somebody will report you for not having them there sure as sunrise. If you do list them then folks will mentally label you a kink venue and that will be ALL you get. Or you can ban anything kinky at all and lose visitors because you're too strait-laced.

The ONLY way this works at all is with the light touch LL try to have now, and for all of us to simply be aware that "if there's no explicit rule saying it mustn't happen here, then it might - even if only rarely."

IF they tried to implement anything more restrictive than we have now it would be a nightmare.

[Kathlen Onyx]

I do wish that they would have a way to self ban yourself from a sim or hide it in search results once you determine that is a sim you never want to visit again, much like muting an avatar.

[Da5id Weatherwax]

7 minutes ago, Sam1 Bellisserian said:

I do wish that they would have a way to self ban yourself from a sim or hide it in search results once you determine that is a sim you never want to visit again, much like muting an avatar.

If warning you before you go there would be acceptable rather than completely hiding it or preventing you from going there I can see a relatively low-cost way LL could implement it. We have "favorites" in our landmarks already. Re-use that code to create a "watchlist" as well - and before you TP to any sim where one of your watchlist landmarks resides you are warned "Your destination is in the same region as a landmark on your watchlist. Are you sure you want to teleport?"

[Kathlen Onyx]

3 minutes ago, Da5id Weatherwax said:

If warning you before you go there would be acceptable rather than completely hiding it or preventing you from going there I can see a relatively low-cost way LL could implement it. We have "favorites" in our landmarks already. Re-use that code to create a "watchlist" as well - and before you TP to any sim where one of your watchlist landmarks resides you are warned "Your destination is in the same region as a landmark on your watchlist. Are you sure you want to teleport?"

THAT is a really good idea!

[Theresa Tennyson]

3 hours ago, Sam1 Bellisserian said:

Is this still a thread about cleaning up SL or hiding things you don't want to see? There is a big difference.

You've obviously not seen me clean my apartment.

[Seicher Rae]

2 hours ago, Da5id Weatherwax said:

Even without taking it to that extreme, you will face the problem of overlabelling.

Yup. You just can't micromanage it. That's why if I were still talking about this (which of course I'm not), again the sim ratings like you see on tv, games, movies, etc that are broad would work, and if they were optional, why not have them?

[Seicher Rae]

26 minutes ago, Theresa Tennyson said:

You've obviously not seen me clean my apartment.

SL just needs to put all icky things into a great big prim oven, put the vacuum cleaner in plain sight in the living room, and they'll be all set for visitors who clutch-their-pearls.

[Persephone Emerald]

9 minutes ago, Seicher Rae said:

SL just needs to put all icky things into a great big prim oven, put the vacuum cleaner in plain sight in the living room, and they'll be all set for visitors who clutch-their-pearls.

Someday they'll close the doors and flush everything, so why should it matter anyway.

[Seicher Rae]

16 hours ago, Love Zhaoying said:

Lots of interesting and humorous points to my post, in a systematic, point by point way.

It's been a long time since anyone has analyzed one of my posts so thoroughly.  Thank you.

I don't have a lot of specific replies, as you stated things pretty easy to follow.

You said "put you down for a no, then" and that would be a no.  Depends on what we're "no-ing" about. No, don't clean up SL, I don't even know what that means. No to segregating parcels into clumps of ever-changing sim ratings. (Only A-violence here, etc. No!) Yes to a simple, optional method of expanding the system we have and to be similar to what is done with tv, movies, etc. Yes to removing actual children from SL (as are the rules). No to removing child avatars. No to having people do whatever they want, where ever they want, whenever. Yes to whatever consenting adults want to do in private or even a private but public sim. And no, I'm not particularly interested in getting down into the weeds, dotting every i, to workshop a plan that will never get traction, regardless of its merits. Yes if you guys want to.

If I had a BDSM sim where I had a St. Andrew's Cross that consenting adults could use, and naked bottoms could be flogged by clothed or naked tops, then... if I had the rating system and the descriptions I'd want, the sim would be A-BDSM, Sex, Nudity, Violence.  Now, I don't happen to think the above scenario is "violent" but uneducated people might, so I'd throw the violence in as an added "heads up." Also not having penetrative sex is common in that scenario, but again, cover one's bases. Shrug. Seems kinda easy. Whatevs.  Some people would use the system, some not. What's it hurting by being there?

Edited August 8, 2022 by Seicher Rae

[Sammy Huntsman]

2 hours ago, Sam1 Bellisserian said:

I do wish that they would have a way to self ban yourself from a sim or hide it in search results once you determine that is a sim you never want to visit again, much like muting an avatar.

I wish they would do that with skilled gaming sims. Especially the people who are highly addicted to gambling. Self Exclusion laws in gambling are a real thing and actually help people with a gambling addiction. Why can't LL have a self-exclusion like law for people who are addicted to gambling or even people who don't want to go to a specific sim. 

 

Edited August 7, 2022 by Sammy Huntsman

[Love Zhaoying]

1 minute ago, Seicher Rae said:

It's been a long times since anyone has analyzed one of my posts so thoroughly.  Thank you.

I figured, if you're going to go to the trouble of writing a long post, SOMEONE should go to the trouble to reply thoroughly!

2 minutes ago, Seicher Rae said:

I don't have a lot of specific replies, as you stated things pretty easy to follow.

❤️

2 minutes ago, Seicher Rae said:

You said "put you down for a no, then" and that would be a no.  Depends on what we're "no-ing" about. No, don't clean up SL, I don't even know what that means. No to segregating parcels into clumps of ever-changing sim ratings. (Only A-violence here, etc. No!) Yes to a simple, optional method of expanding the system we have and to be similar to what is done with tv, movies, etc. Yes to removing actual children from SL (as are the rules). No to removing child avatars. No to having people do whatever they want, where ever they want, whenever. Yes to whatever consenting adults want to do in private or even a private but public sim. And no, I'm not particularly interested in getting down into the weeds, dotting every i, to workshop a plan that will never get traction, regardless of its merits. Yes if you guys want to.

Awesome! Some of these guys just want to talk the topic "to death".  You seem pretty clear. Thank you!

3 minutes ago, Seicher Rae said:

If I had a BDSM sim where I had a St. Andrew's Cross that consenting adults could use, and naked bottoms could be flogged by clothed or naked tops, then... if I had the rating system and the descriptions I'd want, the sim would be A-BDSM, Sex, Nudity, Violence.  Now, I don't happen to think the above scenario is "violent" but uneducated people might, so I'd throw the violence in as an added "heads up." Also not having penetrative sex is common in that scenario, but again, cover one's bases. Shrug. Seems kinda easy. Whatevs.  Some people would use the system, some not. What's it hurting by being there?

I think - some people hate the idea of "more" (even if it is just "different") rules. Maybe it "feels" like a "loss of control"?  I dunno.  It is hard to pick out the "real" reasons among all the um..talk about it. (He said, diplomatically.)

Thanks for reading my response and replying!

 

 

[Theresa Tennyson]

15 minutes ago, Seicher Rae said:

Yup. You just can't micromanage it. That's why if I were still talking about this (which of course I'm not), again the sim ratings like you see on tv, games, movies, etc that are broad would work, and if they were optional, why not have them?

Some variety of content/interest tagging reform could be quite useful. Right now the keywords of most lots looking for traffic are an unweighted salad of any concept someone might be looking for, and the interests you can list in your web profile (yes, you can - you might not realize it) are hampered by the fact that they're completely open-ended so people put down single interests like "strawberries, skiing and the Roman Empire". Having a list system could help make them more useful.

However,  I doubt that Linden Lab would be entirely comfortable curating the list, given what many keywords for Adult locations end up being.

[Seicher Rae]

6 minutes ago, Theresa Tennyson said:

Some variety of content/interest tagging reform could be quite useful.

That's the word I prefer: Useful. or Informational.

And I agree. I have no idea of the logistics involved in tagging content, but it sounds horrendous. They can't even get a Marketplace search to work right. Optional tools for more informed consumers, with a possible goal of ease of use? On paper I have no objection to that.

[Alwin Alcott]

ONe thing is pretty sure, all these recent threads get locked because the original meaning and subject is lost many pages ago.

[Kalegthepsionicist]

On 8/2/2022 at 6:14 AM, Persephone Emerald said:

There is the technical side of course and not wanting to damage existing content. Then there's the often messy laissze faire social side.

LL had to try to stop depictions of sex with child avatars for legal reasons, but even with that being against the TOS, it still has to be reported and proven to be acted upon.

If LL wanted to clean up SL's image by making other depictions against the TOS, would they be able to enforce that? I don't think they let all that go on because they really don't care or because they want the money of those who engage in those particular kinks or questionable roleplay. I think they let it go because trying to stop it would be a task that even Hercules wouldn't be able to tackle,

 

Imho SL biggest problem is

there are no goal. there are no exciting games  to do. competitive games create society, society creates friendship.

people do their own stuff, get bore..and jump to lust roleplay...

this attract horney ppl, so well, anyway..

in the other hands some hunt L, ptovide xxx service.

t turn to look loke utherverse.

btw I not againts to adult activities but it looklike

it is become the main thing in SL.

 

 

 

Edited August 8, 2022 by Kalegthepsionicist

[Scylla Rhiadra]

1 hour ago, Kalegthepsionicist said:

Imho SL biggest problem is

there are no goal. there are no exciting games  to do. competitive games create society, society creates friendship.

people do their own stuff, get bore..and jump to lust roleplay...

this attract horney ppl, so well, anyway..

in the other hands some hunt L, ptovide xxx service.

t turn to look loke utherverse.

btw I not againts to adult activities but it looklike

it is become the main thing in SL.

 

 

 

I think this is another instance of a pretty common phenomenon: characterizing SL from within a "filter bubble," as though one's own experience can be generalized. It's ok -- we all do it.

There are of course lots of gamers in SL, and sex here is a very important thing.

But there are also boatloads of us to whom neither of these applies. Virtually none of my pretty substantial circle of friends are what I would call "serious gamers," and none that I know of who are looking for that kind of experience here.

And, while I'm not going to suggest that sex isn't important to many of them, it is also not the main point or attraction of being here for the vast majority of them.

For instance, of the 8 women (including myself) with whom I connect regularly on Discord, only one is currently in a relationship (sexual or otherwise), and five of us have either never had sex in SL, or haven't indulged in it in literally years and years.

So, maybe LL would do well to add some elements to SL that are going to appeal to gamers. But if they try to make that the main thrust of the platform, they are not only not serving a very large community (perhaps even the majority) of users who aren't here for that -- they might actually risk losing us.

Edited August 8, 2022 by Scylla Rhiadra
Clarification

[Da5id Weatherwax]

13 hours ago, Theresa Tennyson said:

Some variety of content/interest tagging reform could be quite useful.

could be useful if it works. To work, a couple of conditions must be met.

The tags need to mean the same thing to everyone. I know adult subjects are over-cited in this kind of discussion but they do provide readily accessible examples. There's activities in that area that some residents will consider basically "vanilla" but others will cover their virtual eyes and shriek "Perverts!" - that's fine, we're all different, but without a common definition understood by all a tag conveys no information - it is worthless. This would mean the tags would need some level of curation to be useful, and that's something LL would have to do - which would be an ongoing cost in personnel time that I do not think they'd be prepared to absorb. If that were to happen would you be prepared to take a fee increase across the board to cover it? I wouldn't, it's nonessential functionality.

The other thing that would be required for it to work is that the users would have to be disciplined enough in their tag use to not overtag "to get more search hits" and render the tagging system more noise than signal. The examples of MP and current parcel descriptions inworld would seem to be a pretty convincing argument that we (collectively) are not that disciplined in our descriptions.

[Theresa Tennyson]

11 minutes ago, Da5id Weatherwax said:

The other thing that would be required for it to work is that the users would have to be disciplined enough in their tag use to not overtag "to get more search hits" and render the tagging system more noise than signal. The examples of MP and current parcel descriptions inworld would seem to be a pretty convincing argument that we (collectively) are not that disciplined in our descriptions.

One thing I've been thinking about for quite a while is the possibility of "weighted" keywords. Instead of allowing people to put down as many keywords as they can think of, they might be given, say, 10 "points" and each keyword could be assigned a maximum of 5 "points." So, a place could either have two keywords that would be given a lot of "weight" in search or as many as 10 that would have relatively less weight.