Scylla Rhiadra Posted July 20, 2022 Share Posted July 20, 2022 1 minute ago, Luna Bliss said: No, I'm letting my frustration due to managing hoards of demanding renters who interrupted me repeatedly with all too often very silly problems, as well as frustration with those advertising in my group when it was clearly stated this was against the rule when I wanted to desperately to be creating instead, influence my emotional state and desire a harsh penance! Are you good with pocketing L$19000 in pre-paid rent as a penalty for violating the rental agreement or land covenant? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scylla Rhiadra Posted July 20, 2022 Share Posted July 20, 2022 1 hour ago, Qie Niangao said: Maybe somebody with more patience could figure out a cost-effective analog of, say, the Amazon marketplace, to apply to SL land rentals: a set of uniform terms and conditions to protect (to some degree) both buyer and seller, with enough flexibility for sellers to tailor to the situation—and critically, enforceable in less than a minute of employee attention per dispute. This. The current system sucks. Consumers not only have no protections, they are denied even the kinds of tools that, at both a theoretical and practical level, are supposed to counterbalance the arbitrary and absolute power granted to sellers / landlords. 4 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luna Bliss Posted July 20, 2022 Share Posted July 20, 2022 3 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said: 5 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said: No, I'm letting my frustration due to managing hoards of demanding renters who interrupted me repeatedly with all too often very silly problems, as well as frustration with those advertising in my group when it was clearly stated this was against the rule when I wanted to desperately to be creating instead, influence my emotional state and desire a harsh penance! Expand Are you good with pocketing L$19000 in pre-paid rent as a penalty for violating the rental agreement or land covenant? Oh Scylla, don't you know I've pretty much gone "tongue in cheek"? But seriously, on an emotional level I do like how sometimes we reap what we sow, when considering the infringement of boundaries especially. I have no idea what a fair penance would be in reality, and in a dollar amount. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Qie Niangao Posted July 20, 2022 Share Posted July 20, 2022 6 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said: … my conclusion is that we need some form of top-down regulation for this kind of thing. The boat parade participants will surely celebrate more regulation. /irony 1 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sirhc DeSantis Posted July 20, 2022 Share Posted July 20, 2022 Fascinating. I am always up for a new rental and the company the OP slated is now on my list, ain't adverts grand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silent Mistwalker Posted July 20, 2022 Share Posted July 20, 2022 39 minutes ago, Paul Hexem said: Bad takes. You're letting your bias against the action (and I suspect political affiliation) influence your perception. Effectively stealing 80 USD in a game where most things cost 2 or 3 USD is not a good thing. Since when is merely pointing out the facts being biased? "You makes your choice and you pays the price." SL has always been that way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luna Bliss Posted July 20, 2022 Share Posted July 20, 2022 Does this even happen a lot? So much that it warrants a detailed discussion with elaborate solutions? I would imagine prominent landlords wouldn't do it a lot as it's not good for business. Maybe we should be discussing this instead: 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silent Mistwalker Posted July 20, 2022 Share Posted July 20, 2022 37 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said: I'm honestly surprised to hear this from you. I'm just stating the facts as I know them, not expressing an opinion on right or wrong. The no refunds clause has been a part of the FI covenant since the original owner first started the business. I know this for a fact because I rented from the original owner for over 2 years. Stuff happened beyond my control, and I was out $125USD. I knew that was a risk because I read the covenant. Yes, I requested a refund and was denied at first. I did get a partial refund when I explained the situation. There is more to this person's story than what we are being told. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fabiansongs Posted July 20, 2022 Author Share Posted July 20, 2022 3 hours ago, Luna Bliss said: Your actions also played a part in this incident and I don't see you taking responsibility for them. Imagine if every resident of a huge estate like this sent notices out advertising their own ventures. Group notices would be flooded and people might turn them off so as to reduce spam and so not receive important updates sent out by the estate. People don't like excess messaging, and wise group owners usually try to relay only what is vital, even with their own messaging. Messages are capped too, and if we send out too many some end up not getting important updates. I may be venting here a bit, as I still cringe when thinking of my time managing a very active community with many store customers and rentals situated mostly below the store, all a part of one group. I took extra care even sending out my own messages so as not to turn off store customers who might leave my group and be less inclined to buy my merchandise, or to offend renters who would turn off messages and so not receive important community information. Yet there were always these few who felt entitled to advertise their own business or project within my group, as if my group existed for their personal benefit. I ejected one guy advertising his concerts and his ire was so great he even followed me around and harassed me at a public speech I gave as well as in private IM, for quite some time. It never occurred to him that he might have done anything wrong, but instead felt entitled to use my group as he saw fit. I do have sympathy for those who don't know the ropes yet, but in my experience these newbies were never the offenders -- the offenders were those who had a strong sense of entitlement and thought they had a unique right to do whatever they wanted within someone else's group. So the way I see it, you have paid your bill in full. Self-centeredness and lack of empathy for other people has a cost. Wow.. what a revelation. Just tell me big shot, did you confiscate any deposit that guy your ejected? Or did you intend to if he has some deposit with you? Mine was just a simple invitation to join a boat parade with no more than 3 sentences, and it's not profit oriented. I hope you're a better person than the thief who stole my money, just because I trusted them enough to pay my rent in advance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nalates Urriah Posted July 20, 2022 Share Posted July 20, 2022 (edited) 10 hours ago, Love Zhaoying said: No matter the outcome this time, possibly, maybe, don't send out invitations to boat parades in the future. Sounds like you support the idea of intimidation and cancel culture... 11 hours ago, fabiansongs said: I was a resident in [ESTATE NAME REMOVED] for the longest time in second Life, and I have the habit of paying my tiers months ahead. Last year i sent an invitation to the group inviting residents to join a Trump boat parade. Some joined but some complained to [ESTATE NAME REMOVED] that my invitation was an harassment (I sent only one short invitation though) As a result [ESTATE NAME REMOVED] evicted me from their land. I don't think they have also the right to confiscate the 19000 Linden I paid in advance. What do you think I should do? The landowner is king... Within SL there is nothing you can do. Within SL this is a person-to-person disagreement. The Lindens will not get involved. There is a reason Americans revolted against England's king. Avoid conflating real life law with the Lab's governance. The Lab ONLY enforces TOS. And remember. The offices of SL are located in San Francisco a beacon of Leftist regression. Expect the Lindens working there to be influenced by the SF lifestyle. When it comes to law, those playing in SL are bound by it. As are the Lindens. Remember. The Lindens are not law enforcers. They are law-abiders, like you. So your legal recourse is RL small claims court. You take the unfair, politically motivated, fraud to court and demand your money back. Unfortunately, the $78 you might recover is NOT going to pay for your time or court costs. If you think this unfair and just plan wrong, I agree. But this is life in this day and age. If you want to fight... consider, within SL you are fighting on your opposition's home turf. Big disadvantage. Expect little help from other residents. In fact I am surprised you haven't pulled more hate for even mentioning Trump. A year ago several people would have been all over you about Trump and neglected the financial abuse you suffered. You can't attack the Leftist Church of Progressivism from within the church. You get canceled every time. Edited July 20, 2022 by Dakota Linden [Moderator Edit: Identifying Estate Name Removed] 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fabiansongs Posted July 20, 2022 Author Share Posted July 20, 2022 1 hour ago, Love Zhaoying said: See my recent post. Of the L$19000, did they really lose all of that? Half? 1/10th? How much time was left on their rent? The 19,000 was the balance with them, when I left. Hope you 3 hours ago, Luna Bliss said: Your actions also played a part in this incident and I don't see you taking responsibility for them. Imagine if every resident of a huge estate like this sent notices out advertising their own ventures. Group notices would be flooded and people might turn them off so as to reduce spam and so not receive important updates sent out by the estate. People don't like excess messaging, and wise group owners usually try to relay only what is vital, even with their own messaging. Messages are capped too, and if we send out too many some end up not getting important updates. I may be venting here a bit, as I still cringe when thinking of my time managing a very active community with many store customers and rentals situated mostly below the store, all a part of one group. I took extra care even sending out my own messages so as not to turn off store customers who might leave my group and be less inclined to buy my merchandise, or to offend renters who would turn off messages and so not receive important community information. Yet there were always these few who felt entitled to advertise their own business or project within my group, as if my group existed for their personal benefit. I ejected one guy advertising his concerts and his ire was so great he even followed me around and harassed me at a public speech I gave as well as in private IM, for quite some time. It never occurred to him that he might have done anything wrong, but instead felt entitled to use my group as he saw fit. I do have sympathy for those who don't know the ropes yet, but in my experience these newbies were never the offenders -- the offenders were those who had a strong sense of entitlement and thought they had a unique right to do whatever they wanted within someone else's group. So the way I see it, you have paid your bill in full. Self-centeredness and lack of empathy for other people has a cost. 1 hour ago, Love Zhaoying said: See my recent post. Of the L$19000, did they really lose all of that? Half? 1/10th? How much time was left on their rent? 19000 is the balance with them when left there. Hope you are clear about it. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fabiansongs Posted July 20, 2022 Author Share Posted July 20, 2022 Just now, fabiansongs said: The 19,000 was the balance with them, when I left. Hope you 19000 is the balance with them when left there. Hope you are clear about it. those are the balance of the advance I paid them. It's just not right for them to take any advance paid for tier. Even if it's 100 Linden. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luna Bliss Posted July 20, 2022 Share Posted July 20, 2022 (edited) 7 minutes ago, fabiansongs said: Wow.. what a revelation. Just tell me big shot, did you confiscate any deposit that guy your ejected? Or did you intend to if he has some deposit with you? Mine was just a simple invitation to join a boat parade with no more than 3 sentences, and it's not profit oriented. I hope you're a better person than the thief who stole my money, just because I trusted them enough to pay my rent in advance. The guy I ejected from the group was not a renter...I also had a store with many group members. But this isn't about me. Like I said, if you'd accept responsibility for breaking the rules in the first place by posting an advertisement (doesn't matter if it's for your monetary profit or for a personal social cause), then I would have more sympathy for the money you lost. As it stands I haven't seen you admit any wrongdoing. Respectfully, Big Shot Edited July 20, 2022 by Luna Bliss Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coffee Pancake Posted July 20, 2022 Share Posted July 20, 2022 There is always more to these stories ... The whole "I politely tried to do a thing and was then ejected" is incredulous at best at meant to paint the land owners and moderators in the worst possible light. Considering my interactions with literally every past Trump celebrant and their desire to party on my grave, I can only assume there was a lot more that this was just the final straw. 3 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lindal Kidd Posted July 20, 2022 Share Posted July 20, 2022 (edited) 5 hours ago, Modulated said: Rights exist for both tenant and landlord, but that doesn't mean someone can just keep a huge chunk of money for whatever reason. Anyone doing land business in SL should have to reveal exactly who they are in RL, what their business operates as, LLC for example or some other legal entity with a real world address. This is how a real business operates. You don't get to steal and just be anonymous under the guise of running a virtual business. That might be nice, although I don't think so myself. But whatever you or I might think, this is not the case in SL. An SL business person is NOT required to reveal their RL identity. The "rights" of both the tenant and the landlord have nothing to do with RL real estate law, they are governed solely by the Second Life Terms of Service. And what the ToS says is basically, "caveat emptor". It's up to the buyer (or in this case the renter) to determine how much money they're willing to risk, based on the ToS, the land's covenant information and the landlord's reputation. LL considers any money paid from one avatar to another to be a gift. Whether the giver of the gift receives anything of value in return, whether it was promised or not, is completely immaterial in LL's eyes. The Golden Rule in SL is "She Who Owns the Land, Makes the Rules". This means that a landlord may ban anyone she likes, at any time, for any reason, or even no reason at all. Whether or not that person has paid the landlord money has no bearing on this whatsoever. The landlord was notified of the OP's behavior, decided she didn't like the color of his politics, and booted him. Her land, her rules, her decision, and the OP has no recourse. I'm sorry, but that's just the way it is. Most SL landlords bend over backwards to make their tenants happy, because they know that word of mouth works, and one disgruntled renter will result in the loss of many potential renters in the future. But she is also a business person and must decide what's best for the business financially. If I were the landlord, I would've refunded the tenant's unused rent...but this may be why the [ESTATE NAME REMOVED] is still in business and I am not. Edited July 20, 2022 by Dakota Linden [Moderator Edit: Identifying Estate Name Removed] 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silent Mistwalker Posted July 20, 2022 Share Posted July 20, 2022 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fabiansongs Posted July 20, 2022 Author Share Posted July 20, 2022 41 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said: Are you good with pocketing L$19000 in pre-paid rent as a penalty for violating the rental agreement or land covenant? They is no such penalty stated required to be deposited to pay in case of violation. I stayed there for years and I have always paid three months in advance for tiers. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fabiansongs Posted July 20, 2022 Author Share Posted July 20, 2022 40 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said: This. The current system sucks. Consumers not only have no protections, they are denied even the kinds of tools that, at both a theoretical and practical level, are supposed to counterbalance the arbitrary and absolute power granted to sellers / landlords. It makes sense， Scylla, to pay tiers via marketplace. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fabiansongs Posted July 20, 2022 Author Share Posted July 20, 2022 (edited) 37 minutes ago, Lindal Kidd said: That might be nice, although I don't think so myself. But whatever you or I might think, this is not the case in SL. An SL business person is NOT required to reveal their RL identity. The "rights" of both the tenant and the landlord have nothing to do with RL real estate law, they are governed solely by the Second Life Terms of Service. And what the ToS says is basically, "caveat emptor". It's up to the buyer (or in this case the renter) to determine how much money they're willing to risk, based on the ToS, the land's covenant information and the landlord's reputation. LL considers any money paid from one avatar to another to be a gift. Whether the giver of the gift receives anything of value in return, whether it was promised or not, is completely immaterial in LL's eyes. The Golden Rule in SL is "She Who Owns the Land, Makes the Rules". This means that a landlord may ban anyone she likes, at any time, for any reason, or even no reason at all. Whether or not that person has paid the landlord money has no bearing on this whatsoever. The landlord was notified of the OP's behavior, decided she didn't like the color of his politics, and booted him. Her land, her rules, her decision, and the OP has no recourse. I'm sorry, but that's just the way it is. Most SL landlords bend over backwards to make their tenants happy, because they know that word of mouth works, and one disgruntled renter will result in the loss of many potential renters in the future. But she is also a business person and must decide what's best for the business financially. If I were the landlord, I would've refunded the tenant's unused rent...but this may be why the [ESTATE NAME REMOVED] is still in business and I am not. I agree Linda. As a land owner you can evict anyone even by the colour of the skin. But it's a little cheap to betray the trust of some one who is willing to pay in advance. The former landlord was Loretta ... and we went along very well. This happened when some body else took over. Edited July 20, 2022 by Dakota Linden [Moderator Edit: Identifying Estate Name Removed] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fabiansongs Posted July 20, 2022 Author Share Posted July 20, 2022 12 minutes ago, Silent Mistwalker said: I tried Silence. They refused. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scylla Rhiadra Posted July 20, 2022 Share Posted July 20, 2022 (edited) 59 minutes ago, Silent Mistwalker said: There is more to this person's story than what we are being told. That is entirely possible. But I refuse to take as my default position the assumption that someone is lying, unless there is clear evidence -- and there is none here -- that they are doing so. Not even a Trump supporter. What a crappy way to go through life that would be. [Redacted, as the name of the estate has been removed, and this is no longer relevant.] Edited July 20, 2022 by Scylla Rhiadra 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rolig Loon Posted July 20, 2022 Share Posted July 20, 2022 4 minutes ago, Lindal Kidd said: The "rights" of both the tenant and the landlord have nothing to do with RL real estate law, they are governed solely by the Second Life Terms of Service. And what the ToS says is basically, "caveat emptor". It's up to the buyer (or in this case the renter) to determine how much money they're willing to risk, based on the ToS, the land's covenant information and the landlord's reputation. LL considers any money paid from one avatar to another to be a gift. Whether the giver of the gift receives anything of value in return, whether it was promised or not, is completely immaterial in LL's eyes. The Golden Rule in SL is "She Who Owns the Land, Makes the Rules". This means that a landlord may ban anyone she likes, at any time, for any reason, or even no reason at all. Whether or not that person has paid the landlord money has no bearing on this whatsoever. The landlord was notified of the OP's behavior, decided she didn't like the color of his politics, and booted him. Her land, her rules, her decision, and the OP has no recourse. I'm sorry, but that's just the way it is. This is really the heart of the matter. I think there is broad agreement among people posting here that it would have been more ethically correct for the landlord to return the L$. That's what "nice" people do, and it might arguably have been the wise thing to do from a business perspective too. As Lindal says, though, the landlord has no legal obligation to do that. RL law is irrelevant. All that matters is the TOS, and it gives the landlord full right to decide who is allowed on his land and it says absolutely nothing about whether he has to return any unused part of rent. The landlord does not have to even honor his own covenant. From LL's perspective, rental is a handshake agreement. It's up to the landlord and the tenant to settle any dispute, and the landlord holds the winning card. Any discussions of what's in the land covenant, when various actions took place, and whether the tenant or the landlord are telling the full truth are irrelevant. Like it or not, the tenant has no choice but to walk away and suffer the loss. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Modulated Posted July 20, 2022 Share Posted July 20, 2022 (edited) 38 minutes ago, Lindal Kidd said: That might be nice, although I don't think so myself. But whatever you or I might think, this is not the case in SL. An SL business person is NOT required to reveal their RL identity. The "rights" of both the tenant and the landlord have nothing to do with RL real estate law, they are governed solely by the Second Life Terms of Service. And what the ToS says is basically, "caveat emptor". It's up to the buyer (or in this case the renter) to determine how much money they're willing to risk, based on the ToS, the land's covenant information and the landlord's reputation. LL considers any money paid from one avatar to another to be a gift. Whether the giver of the gift receives anything of value in return, whether it was promised or not, is completely immaterial in LL's eyes. The Golden Rule in SL is "She Who Owns the Land, Makes the Rules". This means that a landlord may ban anyone she likes, at any time, for any reason, or even no reason at all. Whether or not that person has paid the landlord money has no bearing on this whatsoever. The landlord was notified of the OP's behavior, decided she didn't like the color of his politics, and booted him. Her land, her rules, her decision, and the OP has no recourse. I'm sorry, but that's just the way it is. Most SL landlords bend over backwards to make their tenants happy, because they know that word of mouth works, and one disgruntled renter will result in the loss of many potential renters in the future. But she is also a business person and must decide what's best for the business financially. If I were the landlord, I would've refunded the tenant's unused rent...but this may be why the [ESTATE NAME REMOVED] is still in business and I am not. There should be and needs to be accountability. No one should be ripped off like the op from some nefarious landlord or any so called business owner. I think if you run a business, the moment you cash out to actual money, your business information should be made available in case there is some escalation that takes place, and vice versa for the customer with the complaint. Quoting the ToS is nice too but we know why its worded like that, its covering LL for all liability more or less. It's wrong to steal from people, regardless of covenants , terms of service or what have you. It's wrong. Edited July 20, 2022 by Dakota Linden [Moderator Edit: Identifying Estate Name Removed] 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fabiansongs Posted July 20, 2022 Author Share Posted July 20, 2022 57 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said: Are you good with pocketing L$19000 in pre-paid rent as a penalty for violating the rental agreement or land covenant? that's my point too, Scylla. As landlord you can evict any one with our without any reason. But confiscate some one s advance to betray his trust with you? That's low. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scylla Rhiadra Posted July 20, 2022 Share Posted July 20, 2022 1 minute ago, Rolig Loon said: Any discussions of what's in the land covenant, when various actions took place, and whether the tenant or the landlord are telling the full truth are irrelevant. Like it or not, the tenant has no choice but to walk away and suffer the loss. In pragmatic terms you are of course absolutely correct -- as I think nearly everyone has said here. What interests me are the broader implications of this. Whether or not the OP is telling the truth is, in that sense, truly irrelevant, as you suggest: this could happen, under the current system, just exactly as they are describing it. And I'll guarantee that it does happen. The system sucks. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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