elleevelyn Posted July 2, 2023 Share Posted July 2, 2023 4 hours ago, Innula Zenovka said: To my mind there's bound to be a large change in the market because suddenly anyone who wants to try their hand at making clothes or accessories will be able to get hold of a dev kit to make stuff they can sell to anyone. A great deal of rubbish will, of course, be produced, but so, too, will some good stuff, and it seems inevitable that, regardless of what established creators do, we'll see talented new creators making clothes and accessories for the new bodies because an artificial constraint on their entering the market has been removed. Time will tell, though. this ^^ more people who don't make avatar accessories now, are going to give NUX creation a go I think. How many is more I dunno will be at least one more, as I am going to have a go at it. I haven't felt this way about building since I first come to SL back in the prim texture days. So am looking forward to it 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caeruleiae Posted July 2, 2023 Share Posted July 2, 2023 5 hours ago, Innula Zenovka said: A great deal of rubbish will, of course, be produced, but so, too, will some good stuff, and it seems inevitable that, regardless of what established creators do, we'll see talented new creators making clothes and accessories for the new bodies because an artificial constraint on their entering the market has been removed. I fully intend to make rubbish. It may eventually get better-but my initial concern will be with making rubbish. Making rubbish is how I learn to create though. I break things and take them apart. Then make them look stupid as I figure out how they work so I can either replicate them or repurpose them for something else. I fully intend to do the same with the nux creations. Now I won't sell the rubbish-unless of course some oddball decides they like rubbish-but I will utterly enjoy the experience of making junk. You should see what my platform looks like sometimes- my creations are often hideous and I absolutely love it. 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coffee Pancake Posted July 2, 2023 Share Posted July 2, 2023 The house always wins. NUX will do for newbies what Linden homes did for premiums. If the NUX doesn't do what someone wants, they wont find that out till much later .. and they will likely buy a mod before they buy a whole new body. Kurpa demonstrated a body without alpha sections is viable. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Foxx Ghoststar Posted July 2, 2023 Share Posted July 2, 2023 I will stick one of these bodies on my alt. He is very neglected and I think he will appreciate it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ceka Cianci Posted July 2, 2023 Share Posted July 2, 2023 5 hours ago, Fauve Aeon said: Patch said that everyone will be able to sign up and get the dev kit. That's the impression I've been getting from him in most of the Lab gabs, even the ones from the end of last year and the beginning of this year. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Theresa Tennyson Posted July 2, 2023 Share Posted July 2, 2023 9 hours ago, Gabriele Graves said: If that isn't LL's goal then body creators are going feel threatened and use whatever leverage they have to convince clothing creators that they shouldn't support it even if creators feel inclined to do so, which I have significant doubts about. Yeah, that would be super smart of them. Even if we temporarily forget the fact that doing that would be a real-world crime, they'd be angering the provider of the service that they rely on for their existence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Theresa Tennyson Posted July 2, 2023 Share Posted July 2, 2023 10 hours ago, steeljane42 said: Some creators could still provide those "standard sized" XS to L mesh clothing if they wanted to, because there's a number of people who still use default avatars. People looking for standard-size clothing can just buy years worth of clothing made for those sizes previously that are often extremely cheap, which is why it isn't financially reasonable to make new clothing for them. Not a factor with NUX avatars. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gabriele Graves Posted July 2, 2023 Share Posted July 2, 2023 34 minutes ago, Theresa Tennyson said: Yeah, that would be super smart of them. Even if we temporarily forget the fact that doing that would be a real-world crime, they'd be angering the provider of the service that they rely on for their existence. Oh you sweet summer child... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Theresa Tennyson Posted July 2, 2023 Share Posted July 2, 2023 2 minutes ago, Gabriele Graves said: Oh you sweet summer child... Because none of this has anything to do with people worrying about losing their precious, precious alpha huds... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steeljane42 Posted July 2, 2023 Share Posted July 2, 2023 (edited) 2 hours ago, Coffee Pancake said: The house always wins. NUX will do for newbies what Linden homes did for premiums. If the NUX doesn't do what someone wants, they wont find that out till much later .. and they will likely buy a mod before they buy a whole new body. Kurpa demonstrated a body without alpha sections is viable. Kupra demonstrated that being released at the right moment "works". As it happened when community was starving for a thick body when Freya was abandoned already and HG just didn't made the cut for that look. And the alternatives were super low quality with no support. The moment a better alternative did show up with Reborn it was already over for Kupra, even if it took/takes a while to die completely. In a way it's viable as is it's usable, but it'll only add to the desire to swap to "something better" when actual newbies are going to discover the better options. If anything I feel like NUX will do better for those serial altoholics who keep making new avatars, especially ones who do it on a budget not wanting (or not being able to) to spend a lot on those extra accounts. Even with a bit of clothing it should be not worse than meshbody's classic or those two maitreya sized ones (lucy and something else), and without extra steps to get it. Edited July 2, 2023 by steeljane42 typos 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gabriele Graves Posted July 2, 2023 Share Posted July 2, 2023 Just now, Theresa Tennyson said: Because none of this has anything to do with people worrying about losing their precious, precious alpha huds... Why would I worry about that? I've got mine and it isn't going anywhere. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gabriele Graves Posted July 2, 2023 Share Posted July 2, 2023 I find it immensely gratifying when people come in and rather than refuting my discussion points, no matter how controversial, with well reasoned responses, instead attempt to deflect the argument to something other than what is being discussed. It shows that's all they've got. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Qie Niangao Posted July 2, 2023 Share Posted July 2, 2023 (edited) It occurs to me that the success of the Senra avatars in attracting new content depends in large measure on the ultimate success of the mobile viewer in attracting large numbers of new users. If there is a surge of new users who stick around long enough to want to customize their avatars, they are not going to start by forking over thousands of L$ for a (maybe, slightly) superior mesh body and head. Eventually perhaps, but only long after they've spent much more than that on clothes, etc., tailored for Senra. For the existing users, not so much. Most of us who are inclined to have mesh bodies have already settled on whichever of the current offerings we can tolerate and have amassed a lot of model-dependent content. Unless LL is willing to pull the kind of market shenanigans that were required to make Legacy viable (you all remember), Senra bodies really will be mostly limited to the New User Experience.* Sure, there are a few who simply can't afford existing commercial mesh bodies (you see them still trying to wear the warmed-over TMP mess) but they have no influence over clothing creators because they can't afford to spend on clothes, either. That's very different from new users who will eventually spend a lot, but need to try some things first. If there's quality clothing for Senra both for free and at "introductory" prices (and of course there will be), they're not going to graduate to other bodies real soon—at least until those other bodies stop resting on their L$ mountains and step up their games. ______________ * As I said before, that may be excepting male avatars, which currently don't pose a very high barrier to surpass. If Blake is halfway competent, my Jake, Gianni, and (especially) Legacy M bodies will not be participating in future outfit creation. They just won't. Edited July 2, 2023 by Qie Niangao typos 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Theresa Tennyson Posted July 2, 2023 Share Posted July 2, 2023 (edited) 12 minutes ago, Gabriele Graves said: I find it immensely gratifying when people come in and rather than refuting my discussion points, no matter how controversial, with well reasoned responses, instead attempt to deflect the argument to something other than what is being discussed. It shows that's all they've got. 1 hour ago, Theresa Tennyson said: Yeah, that would be super smart of them. Even if we temporarily forget the fact that doing that would be a real-world crime, they'd be angering the provider of the service that they rely on for their existence. 1 hour ago, Gabriele Graves said: Oh you sweet summer child... Meanwhile, you keep trying to compare NUX avatars to system avatars, ignoring the fact that there is already a huge and often cheap or free selection of items for system bodies when there won't be for NUX bodies. Edited July 2, 2023 by Theresa Tennyson Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gabriele Graves Posted July 2, 2023 Share Posted July 2, 2023 1 hour ago, Gabriele Graves said: Oh you sweet summer child... Just a different way of saying "I think you are being extremely naive if you think it doesn't happen or wouldn't happen." One that is used commonly around SL. Not the same thing at all. My response was actually about something that was being discussed here. But please, continue... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Theresa Tennyson Posted July 2, 2023 Share Posted July 2, 2023 2 minutes ago, Gabriele Graves said: Just a different way of saying "I think you are being extremely naive if you think it doesn't happen or wouldn't happen." One that is used commonly around SL. Not the same thing at all. My response was actually about something that was being discussed here. But please, continue... Already did but it was an edit and you might have missed it so here it is again... 8 minutes ago, Theresa Tennyson said: Meanwhile, you keep trying to compare NUX avatars to system avatars, ignoring the fact that there is already a huge and often cheap or free selection of items for system bodies when there won't be for NUX bodies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gabriele Graves Posted July 2, 2023 Share Posted July 2, 2023 (edited) 21 minutes ago, Theresa Tennyson said: Meanwhile, you keep trying to compare NUX avatars to system avatars, ignoring the fact that there is already a huge and often cheap or free selection of items for system bodies when there won't be for NUX bodies. No I didn't compare NUX avatars to system avatars. I compared the circumstances around creation for system avatars to point out that for similar reasons, that mainstream support probably wont happen with NUX. Look, I have no doubt that there will be some people who make stuff for them and that is great but they will be statistically insignificant by comparison to the masses of outfits that are made and sold for other mesh bodies and I say this mainly about the female body as I have no idea about male bodies. I actually wish it were otherwise and really dislike the way things are currently for mainstream body support just like most other people. It would be wonderful if LL could fix all that with these bodies but sorry, none of that wishful thinking alter the reality of the situation which is that it is far too late to be anything but another small niche. Edited July 2, 2023 by Gabriele Graves Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Theresa Tennyson Posted July 2, 2023 Share Posted July 2, 2023 Just now, Gabriele Graves said: No I didn't compare NUX avatars to system avatars. I compared the circumstances around creation for system avatars to point out that for similar reasons, that mainstream support probably wont happen with NUX. How does quibbling about "avatars" versus "circumstances around creation" change the fact that the "circumstances around creation" for system avatars involves a mature market and the "circumstances around creation" for NUX avatars involves a new market? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Qie Niangao Posted July 2, 2023 Share Posted July 2, 2023 Not sure I'm reading these correctly: 4 hours ago, Coffee Pancake said: Kurpa demonstrated a body without alpha sections is viable. 1 hour ago, Theresa Tennyson said: Because none of this has anything to do with people worrying about losing their precious, precious alpha huds... Do we already know Senra won't have alpha cuts? Granted, any body supporting alpha cuts is necessarily squandering absurd mesh complexity, but whatever Kupra proved, Slink sure seemed to suffer by missing that precious alpha cut kludge. While I'm asking, do we know if Senra will be mod perm? We know the dev kit will require licensing, but that doesn't preclude the mesh itself being modifiable, and some user ingenuity can overcome a lot of design flaws, given a free hand to fix. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gabriele Graves Posted July 2, 2023 Share Posted July 2, 2023 (edited) 9 minutes ago, Theresa Tennyson said: How does quibbling about "avatars" versus "circumstances around creation" change the fact that the "circumstances around creation" for system avatars involves a mature market and the "circumstances around creation" for NUX avatars involves a new market? Generally because it's not a quibble. Sorry you cannot see that. NUX will have bakes-on-mesh support which will means all those old, cheap system avatar outfits will also be available there if that's what people want. Heck, they can even use the flexi-prim parts too I'd expect. However, you full well know that I'm referring to rigged mesh outfits made for a specific mesh bodies by prominent mainstream creators. The masses use rigged mesh clothing for specific mesh body avatars, end of story. There just aren't any making them for system avatars. None that appear in mainstream events, none. Edited July 2, 2023 by Gabriele Graves Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Theresa Tennyson Posted July 2, 2023 Share Posted July 2, 2023 Just now, Gabriele Graves said: However, you full well know that I'm referring to rigged mesh outfits made for a specific mesh body by prominent mainstream creators. The masses use rigged mesh clothing for specific mesh body avatars, end of story. There just aren't any making them for system avatars. None that appear in mainstream events, none. https://marketplace.secondlife.com/products/search?utf8=✓&search[category_id]=3&search[maturity_level]=GMA&search[keywords]=standard+sizes In other words, those items already exist so it doesn't make economic sense to make new ones. With NUX avatars that won't be the case. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Innula Zenovka Posted July 2, 2023 Share Posted July 2, 2023 (edited) 51 minutes ago, Qie Niangao said: It occurs to me that the success of the Senra avatars in attracting new content depends in large measure on the ultimate success of the mobile viewer in attracting large numbers of new users. If there is a surge of new users who stick around long enough to want to customize their avatars, they are not going to start by forking over thousands of L$ for a (maybe, slightly) superior mesh body and head. Eventually perhaps, but only long after they've spent much more than that on clothes, etc., tailored for Senra. To my mind, the Senra avatar will remove a large barrier to new user retention, no matter what viewer they're using. I shudder to think how many people must be put off when, on asking, "how do I customise my avatar to get it to look something like all these good-looking and well-dressed people I see around me?" are told "First you have to buy US$25 or $30 worth of L$ and use them to buy a mesh avatar and head for the top brands, or search around for freebie or introductory ones, but you can't really use the one Linden Lab provide". Edited July 2, 2023 by Innula Zenovka 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gabriele Graves Posted July 2, 2023 Share Posted July 2, 2023 (edited) 7 minutes ago, Theresa Tennyson said: https://marketplace.secondlife.com/products/search?utf8=✓&search[category_id]=3&search[maturity_level]=GMA&search[keywords]=standard+sizes In other words, those items already exist so it doesn't make economic sense to make new ones. With NUX avatars that won't be the case. This is hilarious. Really? That's your argument that these are good enough that nobody with a system body needed newer, better ones? Oh my word, priceless. No, just no. It's because development stopped when the vast majority of mesh clothing makers dropped support for it because the masses no longer used the system avatar and those that remained are outliers. Mesh clothing has come a long way since then. Edited July 2, 2023 by Gabriele Graves 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Theresa Tennyson Posted July 2, 2023 Share Posted July 2, 2023 9 minutes ago, Qie Niangao said: Not sure I'm reading these correctly: Do we already know Senra won't have alpha cuts? Granted, any body supporting alpha cuts is necessarily squandering absurd mesh complexity, but whatever Kupra proved, Slink sure seemed to suffer by missing that precious alpha cut kludge. While I'm asking, do we know if Senra will be mod perm? We know the dev kit will require licensing, but that doesn't preclude the mesh itself being modifiable, and some user ingenuity can overcome a lot of design flaws, given a free hand to fix. Another thing that should be very possible is people making and selling new deluxified "Senra-compatible" avatars that use the same weighting. If people tried to do this now with commercial bodies they'd think it'd be raining lawyers. That would allow new users upgrade gradually while keeping their old stuff instead of the current protocol where realistically the price of their first clothing or skin upgrade will need to include a body or head which will be several times more expensive than what they're looking to buy. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Theresa Tennyson Posted July 2, 2023 Share Posted July 2, 2023 (edited) Accidental double post. Edited July 2, 2023 by Theresa Tennyson Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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