what will it take for LL to actually do something

[Keesie Pelous]

i've been around SL long enough to know that despite saying "Harassment of any kind will not be tolerated", LL doesn't actually do anything about it, which is a big reason theres an overabundance of twits on SL.  but i assumed that threats of real world violence against other residents was something where they might actually take their thumbs out of their butts and do something.  which is why when a guy sent my SL partner a message 3 days ago threatening her with real world violence, i encouraged her to file an abuse report.  and of course, LL did absolutely nothing and the twit was back in her IMs today.
so my question is, well actually two of them:
1) why bother having a statement about not tolerating harrassment if you don't actually do anything about it?
and 2) what exactly will it take for the people running LL's to take issues seriously?
 

[Akane Nacht]

Just now, Keesie Pelous said:

threatening her with real world violence

call police.

[LittleMe Jewell]

If someone is threatening someone in RL, they need to contact the police

And how does someone even have enough info about the person to threaten their RL?

[Codex Alpha]

There's no need for LL to get involved in disputes that you can solve yourself by using the block user function.

Fun Fact: 99.9% of Second Life 'problems' can be solved with minimal effort using the block user function.

[Scylla Rhiadra]

23 minutes ago, Codex Alpha said:

There's no need for LL to get involved in disputes that you can solve yourself by using the block user function.

Fun Fact: 99.9% of Second Life 'problems' can be solved with minimal effort using the block user function.

Jesus . . .

The suggestion here is that this involved a threat of RL violence.

Newsflash: you can't "block" someone in RL.

I have no idea on the basis of the info given if there is real reason to believe that this person can act upon an RL threat, but it's certainly possible. And you don't know that it's not.

Yes, LL should act on this. And yes, the RL police should be involved. 

[Scylla Rhiadra]

39 minutes ago, LittleMe Jewell said:

If someone is threatening someone in RL, they need to contact the police

And how does someone even have enough info about the person to threaten their RL?

I know enough about probably a half a dozen of my friends that I could probably track down their RL identity with ease. In a couple of cases I have RL names and locations. And although I've never given either out with any specificity to anyone who doesn't already know me in RL, I imagine that there is enough info about me floating around that I could be doxxed by someone willing to put the effort into it.

There are a great many tools available for this kind of thing now, especially if you are interacting as well off this platform.

[Keesie Pelous]

"call the police"...that doesn't actually address my question, does it?  why state "we will not tolerate harassment" if they actually DO tolerate harassment?

"There's no need for LL to get involved in disputes that you can solve yourself by using the block user function"...i'm certain that threats of violence go beyond a "dispute".  and i fail to see how expecting residents to block people is a better option than expecting LL to follow their own TOS. 

 

[Keesie Pelous]

and for the record, i doubt the twit involved has the means to carry out any threats.  but thats not the point.  the point is LL states they will not tolerate that behavior, so the question is why do they continually tolerate it?  it seems they actually only follow TOS against copywrite infringement where they might get sued for non action and beyond that they don't care.

 

[Scylla Rhiadra]

6 minutes ago, Keesie Pelous said:

and for the record, i doubt the twit involved has the means to carry out any threats.  but thats not the point.  the point is LL states they will not tolerate that behavior, so the question is why do they continually tolerate it?  it seems they actually only follow TOS against copywrite infringement where they might get sued for non action and beyond that they don't care.

 

First, I'm delighted to know that you think that there is little chance of this escalating to RL. I hope that you're right, obviously.

LL almost never gets involved in what it calls "disputes between residents," which is I am sure what they consider this. My sense is that the harassment has to be pretty sustained and pretty serious for them to take action -- and it helps, probably, if it involves something like racism (although not necessarily).

A slightly different circumstance, but one that will give you some sense of this: I manage two parcels for a group, located on two separate continents, both of which have been griefed by the same account -- it's an older one, with a legacy name -- multiple times. I'm not talking about his hedges infringing on my parcels: I mean seeding them with self-replicating objects, or, in another instance, pushing a giant prim construction covered with insulting text from SLRR land (where there is a public rez zone) onto one of my parcels, entirely blocking access to it. (The root prim was still on the rail lands, so I had a hell of a time removing it).

I have ARed each instance. So far as I know, not a thing has been done. He's still around -- I fully expect to be griefed by him again. And I full expect LL to do nothing, once again.

I suspect it comes down to resources, on the one hand, and an unwillingness to get too involved in "residential disputes," even when those are unquestionably harassment.

[Coffee Pancake]

51 minutes ago, Codex Alpha said:

 

There's no need for LL to get involved in disputes that you can solve yourself by using the block user function.

Fun Fact: 99.9% of Second Life 'problems' can be solved with minimal effort using the block user function.

Didn't we have an entire thread that demonstrated how pointless that suggestion is .. I'm sure you would remember. 

Edited June 17, 2022 by Coffee Pancake

[Scylla Rhiadra]

1 minute ago, Coffee Pancake said:

Didn't we have an entire thread that demonstrated how pointless that suggestion is .. I'm sure you would remember. 

He's probably blocked himself, and can't access the thread.

[Alwin Alcott]

25 minutes ago, Keesie Pelous said:

"call the police"...that doesn't actually address my question, does it? 

It does adress your question, but you mean you don't like the answer.
Next to it, not saying it's not a bad thing, but you speak for somebody else. You do nót know what your partner did. We seen enough of these kind of complaints during the years, knowing that partners often hide some very important details in those situations. I can't imagine calls like this have no pre history of disputes or fights.

[Coffee Pancake]

3 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

My sense is that the harassment has to be pretty sustained and pretty serious for them to take action -- and it helps, probably, if it involves something like racism (although not necessarily).

My experience is that even with sustained harassment they do not get involved. They just don't.

Accumulated evidence, an itinerary of reports, multiple reports from multiple people, if the individual incident and associated report doesn't raise to the level where they feel they must act because some plain and obvious rule is broken, no action is taken. Especially when they believe that users have sufficient tools to protect themselves .. which they don't.

When I asked a senior Linden at a TPV meeting, I couldn't even get a categoric or even emphatic YES to abuse reports from 3rd party viewers getting the same treatment as those from the Linden client.

 

 

[Scylla Rhiadra]

5 minutes ago, Coffee Pancake said:

When I asked a senior Linden at a TPV meeting, I couldn't even get a categoric or even emphatic YES to abuse reports from 3rd party viewers getting the same treatment as those from the Linden client.

That's a bit sobering.

If this is true -- which would obviously be awful and unfair -- it'd be nice if it were at least public knowledge.

[Coffee Pancake]

1 hour ago, Keesie Pelous said:

i've been around SL long enough to know that despite saying "Harassment of any kind will not be tolerated", LL doesn't actually do anything about it, which is a big reason theres an overabundance of twits on SL.  but i assumed that threats of real world violence against other residents was something where they might actually take their thumbs out of their butts and do something.  which is why when a guy sent my SL partner a message 3 days ago threatening her with real world violence, i encouraged her to file an abuse report.  and of course, LL did absolutely nothing and the twit was back in her IMs today.
so my question is, well actually two of them:
1) why bother having a statement about not tolerating harrassment if you don't actually do anything about it?
and 2) what exactly will it take for the people running LL's to take issues seriously?
 

The best you can do it ignore the twit (and have those also involved or close do the same), and take what measures you can to ensure your SL identity and RL identity are not easily connected. 

Do not block them as that only denies you information.

Do not respond to the messages, do not have friends respond, do not respond to the avatar, act like you have blocked them and they are invisible to you. Get everyone involved to ghost them like last weeks bad date. 

[Gabriele Graves]

Sometimes it's good to take a break from SL and hope they move on.

[Pixie Kobichenko]

31 minutes ago, Keesie Pelous said:

"call the police"...that doesn't actually address my question, does it?  why state "we will not tolerate harassment" if they actually DO tolerate harassment?

"There's no need for LL to get involved in disputes that you can solve yourself by using the block user function"...i'm certain that threats of violence go beyond a "dispute".  and i fail to see how expecting residents to block people is a better option than expecting LL to follow their own TOS. 

 

I’ve been in SL a very long time.  I’ve been witness to people faking real life death to then come back as “someone else” & stalk people. I’ve witnessed SL lovers who revealed RL info to each other fall victim to the other when the spurned one invades the others RL via social media.  I’ve seen some messed up stuff.  And in only 1 situation did Linden Lab go hardcore on an individual & block them from accessing the service via every available avenue save maybe a court order (& who knows if it went that far).  If this individual wants to access SL, they will.  Even if it means borrowing someone else’s device, setting up a new account & logging in at a free hot spot.  
 

Long story short if there is a believable threat then you must act accordingly.  Call the police.  Create new accounts yourselves & don’t reveal them.  Be your own advocate.  

 

[Akane Nacht]

Just now, Keesie Pelous said:

and for the record, i doubt the twit involved has the means to carry out any threats. 

If you know the threat isn't credible, then use the same tools we all have access to - block him, and ban him from your land (if applicable). Not much else you can do, since you've already sent AR.

Edited June 17, 2022 by Akane Nacht
typo

[Scylla Rhiadra]

5 minutes ago, Coffee Pancake said:

The best you can do it ignore the twit (and have those also involved or close do the same), and take what measures you can to ensure your SL identity and RL identity are not easily connected. 

Do not block them as that only denies you information.

Do not respond to the messages, do not have friends respond, do not respond to the avatar, act like you have blocked them and they are invisible to you. Get everyone involved to ghost them like last weeks bad date. 

Excellent advice.

Submitted prematurely. I wanted to highlight the bolded part.

If the person is merely annoying, block them by all means. If they are actually destructive, then it's much better, if you can manage it, to monitor what they are up to, rather than closing your eyes and humming loudly to yourself while pretending it isn't happening. Which is essentially what blocking is.

3 minutes ago, Gabriele Graves said:

Sometimes it's good to take a break from SL and hope they move on.

And unfortunately, that's sometimes what people have to do.

In practical terms, you're right. People have different thresholds for the amount of abuse they can handle, and, of course, often different kinds of personal tools for dealing with it.

But I DO hate that it tends to be those targeted who are the ones who have to leave -- the club, the community, or, indeed, the platform.

Edited June 17, 2022 by Scylla Rhiadra

[Gabriele Graves]

2 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

But I DO hate that it tends to be those targeted who are the ones who have to leave -- the club, the community, or, indeed, the platform.

Sometimes protecting yourself does feel like you are losing, that's why it takes strength sometimes to do it anyway.

 

[Scylla Rhiadra]

Just now, Gabriele Graves said:

Sometimes protecting yourself does feel like you are losing, that's why it takes strength sometimes to do it anyway.

 

I don't disagree.

While I don't want to seem to be equating the kinds of cases we're talking about, one would always counsel a victim of domestic abuse to get out of the situation. And yes, that can actually take more strength and resolve that "sticking it out."

Incommensurate example, I know, but the principle still holds.

[Coffee Pancake]

Just now, Gabriele Graves said:

Sometimes protecting yourself does feel like you are losing, that's why it takes strength sometimes to do it anyway.

Sacrifice your entire SL social circle, all your hobbies, interests and investments in the platform .. sounds a lot like letting the bully win.

Victims of abuse, harassment and threats feeling like they have no recourse but to leave the platform is not and should not ever be an acceptable solution.

[Gabriele Graves]

4 minutes ago, Coffee Pancake said:

Sacrifice your entire SL social circle, all your hobbies, interests and investments in the platform .. sounds a lot like letting the bully win.

Victims of abuse, harassment and threats feeling like they have no recourse but to leave the platform is not and should not ever be an acceptable solution.

Everyone is different and it's each person's own choice what they do but there is no shame in deciding that you've had enough for a while.  It doesn't have to be a long time, doesn't have to mean to cancel everything, just a break.  That's all I said.

Edited June 17, 2022 by Gabriele Graves

[Dune Ravenwood]

I had this scenerio happen to me with an older avatar back in 2010 and Linden Lab did actually help me and banned 2 people and they lost their sims and avatars etc. Maybe they won't now but worth reporting and trying.

I had provided chat with the threats etc which I am sure helped.

Edited June 17, 2022 by Ziggy Starsmith

[bigmoe Whitfield]

Make sure to include im snippets in the abuse report, it will help LL pin down when and whom and such,  because the logs on LL's side nobody can change but LL, so it will help protect you and every one else too.  just a tidbit I figured I'd share.