Aggressive helper on New Player Island

[Coffee Pancake]

5 hours ago, Love Zhaoying said:

I can see that backfiring, "giving birth to" griefers (peed-off new residents).

My experiences only cover the original Linden operated mentor groups, it was never overt, but something mentors would frequently discuss amongst themselves.

"Hi, I hear there is sex in this game" .. "oh, it's not a game and I don't think we have sex here anymore"

Newbie is a jerk .. somehow newbie gets a grif gun and blasts people around the welcome area because they don't know any better (if I got a gun, shouldn't it be ok to use it?) .. mentors call in a permaban. Who armed the newbie?

Actual newbs only have the information they picked outside of SL (if that), they are not clued into the social or behavioral expectations prevalent in SL.

35 minutes ago, Lindal Kidd said:

I'd never considered it before, but someone recently pointed out to me that this is indeed a hazard of the mentoring business. A disgruntled resident can AR you, and if LL finds in their favor, a mentor could wind up, in the worst case, banned forever from SL.

Mentors, be darn sure your chat and IMs demonstrate that you are cool, helpful, and professional at all times.

If a newb can't find their way around the viewer, it's pretty safe to assume they wont know where the AR floater is, or how to construct an actionable abuse report should they find it.

4 minutes ago, Love Zhaoying said:

That could be their entire Second Life goal, literally pushing n00bs around.

Newbie jostle is to be expected .. especially if they can't find how to open chat, bumpin is the only communication tool they have. Much like how walking up to another player in a game or MMO and crouch/jump spamming is used in place of "hello!"

 

I was an mentor back when it was a Linden supported role. While I would very much like to see the program reinstated, it was not without it's problems.

[Lindal Kidd]

1 minute ago, Coffee Pancake said:

If a newb can't find their way around the viewer, it's pretty safe to assume they wont know where the AR floater is, or how to construct an actionable abuse report should they find it.

Yes. But not all new accounts are actually NEW users. Lots of them are alts, and mentors encounter them all the time.

[Silent Mistwalker]

52 minutes ago, xDancingStarx said:

What argument are you trying to make here? You have a bad experience with any of them, you can report them to whoever is in charge of them. They are NOT random people.

I'm not making an argument. I stated how it is. I said nothing about ARs or whether or not one should be filed or even if LL will act on one. 

Please to not make mountains out of molehills that don't exist.

[Love Zhaoying]

5 minutes ago, Coffee Pancake said:

bumpin is the only communication tool they have

I think "sex" ("humpin") was also just mentioned, and newbs with guns could be "thumpin".. I was inspired to finally find where Fatboy Slim sampled the "thumpin and bumpin" in "Sho Nuff" from!

 

[Silent Mistwalker]

13 minutes ago, Coffee Pancake said:

bumpin is the only communication tool they have

Like in the first MMOs before there was text chat.

Now, some MMOs don't even have text chat, apparently.

6-year-old thread re: Elder Scrolls: https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/boards/719738-the-elder-scrolls-online-tamriel-unlimited/73751527

[xDancingStarx]

26 minutes ago, Silent Mistwalker said:

I'm not making an argument. I stated how it is. I said nothing about ARs or whether or not one should be filed or even if LL will act on one. 

By saying that they're not "official" you implied that they're just random people with no responsibility. And that is my point here, it's simply not true. They have to behave according to guidelines. Linden approves the starter sim, the owner of the sim approves the helper. Or in the Linden island case approves the group. The owner of the sim/group is interested in the helpers behaving accordingly. So if you think that you've encountered a problem with a helper, which doesn't need to be AR worthy, it is in fact helpful to let someone in charge know in case you want the situation to improve.

Edited June 17, 2022 by xDancingStarx

[Silent Mistwalker]

2 minutes ago, xDancingStarx said:

By saying that they're not "official" you implied that they're just random people with no responsibility. And that is my point here, it's simply not true. They have to behave according to guidelines. Linden approves the helper sim, the owner of the sim approves the helper. Or in the Linden island case approves the group. The owner of the sim/group is interested in the helpers behaving accordingly. So if you think that you've encountered a problem with a helper, which doesn't need to be AR worthy, it is in fact helpful to let someone in charge know in case you want the situation to improve.

Did you even bother to just look at the link I posted much less read it? 

I implied nothing. You are inferring that which isn't there. You are reading into my post far more than what is actually there. Please stop.

Edited June 17, 2022 by Silent Mistwalker

[Love Zhaoying]

2 hours ago, Silent Mistwalker said:

Both are correct. The White Tigers are not LL employees, they are resident volunteers.

https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/White_Tiger_Mentors

New Resident Island is the only entry point to SL using the official viewer. Third party viewers like Firestorm have their own entry points that are separate from the official.

This is cool! Thanks for the info. I wish they existed when I was n00b. 

Not that I'm any less of a n00b.

[Silent Mistwalker]

6 hours ago, Lindal Kidd said:

ANOTHER EDIT:

Silent, New Resident Island does indeed belong to White Tiger Mentors, but it's NOT a gateway region. NRI is open to the public. Welcome Island 2 is the gateway region where you'll often find people with the tag "White Tiger Guide" helping the newest of the new.

Ever have the experience of thinking one thing and saying or typing something different? 😊

Welcome Area or whatever they are calling the entry point now. 

Ahern/Morris, Lime/Plum, Watershed... before Ben Linden blew it up.

Edit: https://secondlife.fandom.com/wiki/Welcome_Area

Edited June 17, 2022 by Silent Mistwalker

[HeathcliffMontague]

7 hours ago, Lindal Kidd said:

OK, this is a topic that I really AM an expert on.

Thanks for this. Someone I know IRL just recently joined SL, and I sent them a link to your reply here.

While they obviously get a good head start by having me help them out and giving them a free place to set home and rezz from day one, there is a lot to be said for allowing oneself to just be  a newb and figuring things out by yourself.

Edited June 17, 2022 by HeathcliffMontague
Spelling

[purrrkitten]

21 hours ago, Creed Hexem said:

So my friend is being overly bombarded by comments about the fact that I have brought them to SL, how suspicious it is and how they should not wait around for me to help them, the list goes on and on for about an hour and I was finally awake to help them get off the island. 

So your friend just stayed on the same sim for an hour lol? Did they attempt to go somewhere else or to block the person? Basic internet common sense applies to SL as well....

[Paulsian]

8 hours ago, Lindal Kidd said:

OK, this is a topic that I really AM an expert on.

There are several entry gateway regions to SL. For example, the Firestorm people have one, and a lot of new accounts using the Firestorm viewer are routed there. The official LL gateway is Welcome Island 2 (there used to be a 1, but no longer). At WI2, usually only brand new avatars are allowed, and once they leave they cannot return. (However, they can get to a duplicate region with the exact same design that is open to all, Welcome Back Island). This policy is to keep troublemakers from bothering new and naive residents.

The only other residents who are supposed to have access to Welcome Island 2 are members of the White Tiger Orientation group, a sub-group of White Tiger Mentors who have received additional training for this job. White Tiger Mentors also runs New Resident Island (currently being remodeled) and is a very old and reputable resident-run help group. Its head is Treacle Darlandes.

That's the way it's supposed to work. Unfortunately, some other residents have access to WI2. I have no idea how they are doing it. One of these is the resident who pestered the OP's friend.  She is not actually what I'd call a griefer, but she is very aggressive about "helping", often doing things like disparaging a newcomer's choice of user name.  I think she's hyperactive, unable to stand still or be quiet for any length of time. I have not reported her before this, considering her to be annoying but well-intentioned and basically harmless. Having seen this post, I will AR her the next time I see her on WI2.

EDIT:

Molly, a public-access version of Social Island does still exist, and it's usually loaded with the same sort of clowns who infest Infohubs. However, Social Island is no longer a part of the onboarding experience. In the same way, you can still find legacy versions of another even older onboarding system, Orientation Island Public and Help Island Public. "Learning Island", the log-in region(s) that used to be a part of the Learning Island/Social Island onboarding chain, has vanished entirely.

ANOTHER EDIT:

Silent, New Resident Island does indeed belong to White Tiger Mentors, but it's NOT a gateway region. NRI is open to the public. Welcome Island 2 is the gateway region where you'll often find people with the tag "White Tiger Guide" helping the newest of the new.

I hope whom ever handles the ARs for that person will do so with extreme care. They just need to know they are a bit extra and there have been complaints. That's all that's needed imo. 

[Lindal Kidd]

1 hour ago, HeathcliffMontague said:

Thanks for this. Someone I know IRL just recently joined SL, and I sent them a link to your reply here.

While they obviously get a good head start by having me help them out and giving them a free place to set home and rezz from day one, there is a lot to be said for allowing oneself to just be  a newb and figuring things out by yourself.

I'll be happy to chat with your friend any time. But even better, take them to Caledon Oxbridge University and let them walk through the self paced tutorial. There are live helpers there most times, and if they join the University Scholars group they can set their Home position in the rose garden in the middle of the campus.

[Madison10292018]

On 6/16/2022 at 7:48 PM, Creed Hexem said:

Long story short, I have a couple years under my belt and talked a RL friend into finally coming into Second Life and dipping their toes in the water. I wasn't awake at the very moment they created and logged in so they were walking around that area doing the basic command helps and whatever have you. And they get talked to multiple times by someone who says they're there to help the novices. (I don't remember that kind of person hanging around when I created, but it has been a few years) So my friend is being overly bombarded by comments about the fact that I have brought them to SL, how suspicious it is and how they should not wait around for me to help them, the list goes on and on for about an hour and I was finally awake to help them get off the island. 

Is this kind of thing normal?

It was really nearly enough to turn them off even trying more of Second Life and those of us who love it here understand how, I would hope, how disappointed that made/makes me. I hope that novice helps can do better than passing harassment and comments on a new person. I don't really come to the forums beyond an occasional hunt or search on a how-to so I don't know if this is a normal thing, if it is a fluke or what.. but maybe just letting others know can change that and keep it from happening again.

Second Life has a steep learning curve for beginners and there are the occasional weirdos. I would suggest that if you recruit anyone for the game you warn them of that steep curve and suggest that they wait until you are around before logging in for the first time.

Edited June 18, 2022 by Madison10292018

[Silent Mistwalker]

@Lindal Kidd

Remember this place? 😁

[rasterscan]

On 6/17/2022 at 12:48 AM, Creed Hexem said:

Long story short, I have a couple years under my belt and talked a RL friend into finally coming into Second Life and dipping their toes in the water. I wasn't awake at the very moment they created and logged in so they were walking around that area doing the basic command helps and whatever have you. And they get talked to multiple times by someone who says they're there to help the novices. (I don't remember that kind of person hanging around when I created, but it has been a few years) So my friend is being overly bombarded by comments about the fact that I have brought them to SL, how suspicious it is and how they should not wait around for me to help them, the list goes on and on for about an hour and I was finally awake to help them get off the island. 

Is this kind of thing normal?

It was really nearly enough to turn them off even trying more of Second Life and those of us who love it here understand how, I would hope, how disappointed that made/makes me. I hope that novice helps can do better than passing harassment and comments on a new person. I don't really come to the forums beyond an occasional hunt or search on a how-to so I don't know if this is a normal thing, if it is a fluke or what.. but maybe just letting others know can change that and keep it from happening again.

A new starter experience is long long LONG  overdue. 

[C0ui]

while newcomer is more likely to rez on the Welcome Island 2 (WI2), they could also end up in other 2 new-account areas: Firestorm Orientation Island (OI) and Adventure Island.(AI)  I did try experiment with a few account and mostly ended up at WI2.

While WI2 is a serine and welcome area and the only place where new GuideBook actually makes sense (it rezed on your hud for every account regardless of where you spawned) , it is NOT governed by anyone. White Tigers Mentors (WTM) have no powers there, so their only 2 tools are persuasion and old-good AR report. Should any questionable aggressive account decide to linger at WI2 - they can do it indefinitely, and they will do it, rightfully so, until LL gets enough ARs to block that account. Until they they WILL bug newcomers, fly into their faces (even though flying is disabled), parade in the nude glissing mesh bodies with huge bazookas or even grief (oh my!). That's how LL wants to have WI2 ran and that's LL problem. Once newly baked resident manages to leave WI2 (some never do!) - they can never come back. Social Islands are no longer the next step, so they might end up in one of the Newcomer friendly areas of their choosing at Destination Guide which could be any of the top 4 displayed (London, Tokyo, SI10 or FSG Social)

The situation is slightly different with OI and AI since both of those areas are monitored by their qualified governing groups, and troublemakers can be removed if they become bit much.  Both OI and AI admins are well trained individuals. Also, even though AR is still a good tool there - as some others posters said - its better to contact the local admins / owners if you have a negative experience in non-linden spawning area as its managed locally.  I did not find many troubled folks hanging back on OI or AI. Why? OI has 5-6 day stay limit and impossible to get back to. AI is almost always heavily governed 24/7 and bad elements are eventually removed.

Why am I mentioning all of this? LL is well-aware of the WI2 situation, same way they are aware of SI10 as being troll, vamp and griefer infested island, literally the worst place you'd want to send a newbies too, and it is still a Linden Land. And its at DG newcomer friendly at top 4, really?

Why do they keep allowing SI10 to happen? I am guessing they'd rather have all trolls in one spot w/no rez (or potentially even w/no voice, if they decide to). Here guys, come and see what SL is all about:)

Why is WI2 is the way it is? You'll be shocked to find out this has been the way LL ran welcome areas for years. Even since SL Mentors with a hot-line to LL were removed from Learning, Welcome, or whatever spawning islands it became "free for all", where anyone can register a new account and do whatever they want (including urm well what you mentioned earlier - bad help), until enough ARs are received to block that account. With that in mind, its not always a bad idea. Before WTMs were granted access to LL spawning areas we helpers would register new accounts and help there ourselves, that was the only way to get there, except those times when LL had configurations to boot older accounts from Learning Islands after what 2 week?

[Prokofy Neva]

On 6/16/2022 at 7:48 PM, Creed Hexem said:

Long story short, I have a couple years under my belt and talked a RL friend into finally coming into Second Life and dipping their toes in the water. I wasn't awake at the very moment they created and logged in so they were walking around that area doing the basic command helps and whatever have you. And they get talked to multiple times by someone who says they're there to help the novices. (I don't remember that kind of person hanging around when I created, but it has been a few years) So my friend is being overly bombarded by comments about the fact that I have brought them to SL, how suspicious it is and how they should not wait around for me to help them, the list goes on and on for about an hour and I was finally awake to help them get off the island. 

Is this kind of thing normal?

It was really nearly enough to turn them off even trying more of Second Life and those of us who love it here understand how, I would hope, how disappointed that made/makes me. I hope that novice helps can do better than passing harassment and comments on a new person. I don't really come to the forums beyond an occasional hunt or search on a how-to so I don't know if this is a normal thing, if it is a fluke or what.. but maybe just letting others know can change that and keep it from happening again.

There used to be Lindens in the welcome areas, with the title "liaison," but that doesn't exist any more, it's too big and they don't spare the staff even to circuit ride, which they should. They had a program called "Mentors" which they supervised at least superficially, but that also had the problems you describe (e.g. following a tenant into their home and browbeating them), and was disbanded. 

So nowadays you get the "need to be needed" types which are the worst, and the faster you can scamper out of the WA, the better.

[Prokofy Neva]

1 hour ago, C0ui said:

while newcomer is more likely to rez on the Welcome Island 2 (WI2), they could also end up in other 2 new-account areas: Firestorm Orientation Island (OI) and Adventure Island.(AI)  I did try experiment with a few account and mostly ended up at WI2.

While WI2 is a serine and welcome area and the only place where new GuideBook actually makes sense (it rezed on your hud for every account regardless of where you spawned) , it is NOT governed by anyone. White Tigers Mentors (WTM) have no powers there, so their only 2 tools are persuasion and old-good AR report. Should any questionable aggressive account decide to linger at WI2 - they can do it indefinitely, and they will do it, rightfully so, until LL gets enough ARs to block that account. Until they they WILL bug newcomers, fly into their faces (even though flying is disabled), parade in the nude glissing mesh bodies with huge bazookas or even grief (oh my!). That's how LL wants to have WI2 ran and that's LL problem. Once newly baked resident manages to leave WI2 (some never do!) - they can never come back. Social Islands are no longer the next step, so they might end up in one of the Newcomer friendly areas of their choosing at Destination Guide which could be any of the top 4 displayed (London, Tokyo, SI10 or FSG Social)

The situation is slightly different with OI and AI since both of those areas are monitored by their qualified governing groups, and troublemakers can be removed if they become bit much.  Both OI and AI admins are well trained individuals. Also, even though AR is still a good tool there - as some others posters said - its better to contact the local admins / owners if you have a negative experience in non-linden spawning area as its managed locally.  I did not find many troubled folks hanging back on OI or AI. Why? OI has 5-6 day stay limit and impossible to get back to. AI is almost always heavily governed 24/7 and bad elements are eventually removed.

Why am I mentioning all of this? LL is well-aware of the WI2 situation, same way they are aware of SI10 as being troll, vamp and griefer infested island, literally the worst place you'd want to send a newbies too, and it is still a Linden Land. And its at DG newcomer friendly at top 4, really?

Why do they keep allowing SI10 to happen? I am guessing they'd rather have all trolls in one spot w/no rez (or potentially even w/no voice, if they decide to). Here guys, come and see what SL is all about:)

Why is WI2 is the way it is? You'll be shocked to find out this has been the way LL ran welcome areas for years. Even since SL Mentors with a hot-line to LL were removed from Learning, Welcome, or whatever spawning islands it became "free for all", where anyone can register a new account and do whatever they want (including urm well what you mentioned earlier - bad help), until enough ARs are received to block that account. With that in mind, its not always a bad idea. Before WTMs were granted access to LL spawning areas we helpers would register new accounts and help there ourselves, that was the only way to get there, except those times when LL had configurations to boot older accounts from Learning Islands after what 2 week?

Does LL itself funnel newbies to Firestorm and Adventure, or do they find it themselves?

I'm not for residents of any type being deployed as newbie helpers except on their own sims they pay for with their own programs which are opt-in.

The company needs paid and benefited staff full time on these areas and must constantly revise them and throw out the A/B test concept which consistently fails. But they don't wish to do this for all kinds of reasons and so they lose 9 out of 10 or whatever.

 

[Lindal Kidd]

2 hours ago, C0ui said:

White Tigers Mentors (WTM) have no powers there, so their only 2 tools are persuasion and old-good AR report. Should any questionable aggressive account decide to linger at WI2 - they can do it indefinitely, and they will do it, rightfully so, until LL gets enough ARs to block that account. Until they they WILL bug newcomers, fly into their faces (even though flying is disabled), parade in the nude glissing mesh bodies with huge bazookas

You're right about the guides having no special powers. However, the situation you're describing here has not happened, although the new onboarding system has been in operation for over a year now.

We've had some campers. Notably, a group of alts that camped right on the arrival point with billboards. With those and in chat, they directed Spanish speaking people to their regions. They were reported and after a few days, we didn't see them any more. There was one serial stalker who, in the guise of "helping", tried to get female newbies to divulge RL information. He too was reported and we haven't seen him in a while.

We've had some annoying folks, but none with weapons or serious griefing tools (object creation is disabled, so guns don't work). About the worst that's happened is a little aggressive bumping of people and harassing with foul language. Occasionally someone will take off their clothes (usually unintentionally). Most will put them back on again when asked politely.

Taken all in all, Welcome Island is... pleasantly boring. There's usually time to chat at length with those newcomers who will actually talk to you. The only problem is, most newbies won't talk to you at all. From questions I'm frequently asked, I think this is because most of them think we helpers are bots.

[C0ui]

@Prokofy NevaLinden Lab supposedly have algorithm which funnels newcomers through 3 of the listed "known" regions. If you add a tracker on all 3 you'd see that the headcount would be fairly balanced on all 3 so my wild guess is that they spread a new joy to all 3 equally. However if 1 of the welcome places has 5 stationed avis there 24/7 including 2 greeters, they'd only get a new warm body sent to them by LL if other islands have 5 or more.  Again, I've been watching them for a year or so occasionally, and its been a case. Also whenever WI2 goes down for maintenance or gets stuck during weekly restarts - you'd see the traffic balance out between the other 2 (OI and AI), and go back to "norm" after WI2 comes back online. If 2 out of them go down for longish term - then 3rd one will get all intake.

Edited June 18, 2022 by C0ui

[C0ui]

@Lindal KiddI have been at WI2 as a newly baked account multiple times, managed to stay on one of them for couple of week until clicked a wrong button. I've met few WTMs and few accounts just like mine - nicely dressed with multiple days or even years , still "parked" at WI2 and simply never leaving the place.  If you can't control what sort of people stay behind at WI2 - you would get a chance of spammers or false helpers . They could be literally anybody as you do not know what they are IMing newcomers about and in what language unless you start as a newcomer yourself.  My point is - issue described is not preventable unless LL changes their Wi2 policies which we know they will never do.  I share your sentiment regarding non-english speakers. Its very hard of them to navigate the WI2 w/English Guidebook only.

[Paulsian]

3 hours ago, C0ui said:

Why do they keep allowing SI10 to happen? I am guessing they'd rather have all trolls in one spot w/no rez (or potentially even w/no voice, if they decide to). Here guys, come and see what SL is all about:)

Social island is very beautiful build and residents are drawn to her. new and existing, well mannered and rude, shy and outgoing, rule abiding and criminal. Its boring, relaxing, exciting, safe, dangerous, and always interesting. It's a place to return to that is normally populated. It's educational. It's a roller coaster. It's my longest term relationship in second life. 

[Madison10292018]

7 hours ago, rasterscan said:

A new starter experience is long long LONG  overdue. 

I've been playing since 2008. There have been many attempts to make the steep learning curve easier. Every few years they create a new starter zone and it's still difficult for newbees.

One big problem is that you can't start people off with easy tasks. That, in part is because this is a virtual world and has no built in tasks, why by the way, is another thing that causes beginners to struggle.

[Prokofy Neva]

3 hours ago, C0ui said:

@Prokofy NevaLinden Lab supposedly have algorithm which funnels newcomers through 3 of the listed "known" regions. If you add a tracker on all 3 you'd see that the headcount would be fairly balanced on all 3 so my wild guess is that they spread a new joy to all 3 equally. However if 1 of the welcome places has 5 stationed avis there 24/7 including 2 greeters, they'd only get a new warm body sent to them by LL if other islands have 5 or more.  Again, I've been watching them for a year or so occasionally, and its been a case. Also whenever WI2 goes down for maintenance or gets stuck during weekly restarts - you'd see the traffic balance out between the other 2 (OI and AI), and go back to "norm" after WI2 comes back online. If 2 out of them go down for longish term - then 3rd one will get all intake.

Well, isn't that interesting. That means they finally went against their own religion favouring a randomizer script. They used to randomize sending of newbies to infohubs, including the resident-run old Linden resident hubs (such as we have in Ross). There you could see that the religious belief in randomizing didn't produce balance with that small a sample, so one day you might get 50 pile-ups at once at your site, because that's how randomness works, and then go days with nothing.

A true load balance would really literally divide them up equally and get equal outcomes as you indicate.

As I said, I don't believe in a system of resident-run intake. It's inherently inept and corrupt and hence ineffective.