1 second Orb timing, is it necessary

[Ardy Lay]

1 minute ago, Love Zhaoying said:

You remind me of the joke, "When I bring you breakfast in bed, I would hope to be thanked. Not all this, 'Who are you, and what are you doing in my house?' "

Yes!  People that explore mainland should always carry a prepared breakfast with them just for these occasions! 

[Luna Bliss]

2 minutes ago, Sammy Huntsman said:

5 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

I might agree with this, to a degree.

But here's the thing...many feel having to encounter a stranger in their house for even 15 seconds so that a few "explorers' don't get booted is unreasonable.

I mean if we are gonna use an RL example. I am certainly not gonna wanna chit chat with someone who nonchalantly comes into my house. I am telling them to get out right away or I will call the cops and take them out by force. How is that any different than someone using an orb and kicking you home instantly? 

While we can't always apply SL to RL in all situations, yes, I think those who want to roleplay a home situation should be allowed to do so. This includes locking doors.

[Sammy Huntsman]

2 minutes ago, Love Zhaoying said:

You remind me of the joke, "When I bring you breakfast in bed, I would hope to be thanked. Not all this, 'Who are you, and what are you doing in my house?' "

That one had me giggling. Lol. But it's true, if you come into my room or my house nonchalantly. I am not gonna be like thank you for the breakfast. I would be like how in the heck did you get in. Lol 

 

[Love Zhaoying]

6 minutes ago, Sammy Huntsman said:

But you can freely explore mainland, people are just saying that they don't want you on their little piece of land. There is nothing impeding you from doing that.

I've seen hints in the posts that maybe it's mostly drivers under lag, bad drivers, or drivers who need more practice who can be most often affected as they careen into your property. And flyers who don't know to just fly above the ban lines. 

[Arielle Popstar]

9 minutes ago, Love Zhaoying said:

This is one of those topics where the OP disappeared ages and pages ago!

No, she has posted several times during the course of the thread, the last time about 5 hours ago.

 

[Sammy Huntsman]

Just now, Love Zhaoying said:

I've seen hints in the posts that maybe it's mostly drivers under lag, bad drivers, or drivers who need more practice who can be most often affected as they careen into your property. And flyers who don't know to just fly above the ban lines. 

I mean I remember having a mainland parcel and wish I could have kept the planes. So I could have a airplane graveyard. Lol 

[Love Zhaoying]

2 minutes ago, Ardy Lay said:

Yes!  People that explore mainland should always carry a prepared breakfast with them just for these occasions! 

I would hope it's a large British breakfast, but then I'm a vegetarian. 

[Codex Alpha]

43 minutes ago, Sammy Huntsman said:

I mean if we are gonna use an RL example. I am certainly not gonna wanna chit chat with someone who nonchalantly comes into my house. I am telling them to get out right away or I will call the cops and take them out by force. How is that any different than someone using an orb and kicking you home instantly? 

 

Only the most exceptional and extremely rare case is someone just going to walk into your house, and I also believe the majority of users in Second Life are doing the same thing, and if they go too far in doing so it is out of curiosity and nothing malicious.

Yet depending on the bylaws in your particular city, it is a reasonable expectation as part of a civil and free society in the West, that people are allowed reasonable access such as knocking on your door to say hello as a neighbour, or perhaps a Girl Guide is selling cookies, or a salesperson selling roofing or painting services wants to give you a business card, or another is dropping off a flyer, etc. Yes some people don't like that but most accept that it is a concession in a civil society, so don't automatically send the hounds against people or blow their head off for daring to knock on their door.

The analogy we're talking about is more like walking past someone's property, and your hand happens to cross their little white picket fence and they are are killed by a sentry gun on the roof.

One measure is reasonable and fair and still respects people's property and rights and allows the free movement of people in conducting business or non-malicious actions - and the other of course is clearly ridiculous.

3 hours ago, Rolig Loon said:

And, aside from the fun of hearing each other talk, is the conversation doing anything more than chasing the same tired horse around the barnyard?

I think it may have started off as a practical problem needing a solution, and has morphed into a study of the thoughts and attitudes of Second Life users, and how that will affect us as a community moving forward.

exception: surpassing what is common or usual or expected, far beyond what is usual in magnitude or degree,deviating widely from a norm

relating to bell curves and generalization (on the fringes, not common, not average, exceptional)

as an argument: Arguing The Exception

eg. A troubled kid decides to fill a Super Soaker water gun with bleach and spray people in the face with it. An exceptional use but the Mayor calls for a citywide ban/non-sale on all Supersoakers.

 

Edited June 6, 2022 by Codex Alpha
Even the usage of well-known words and definitions are being contested :/

[Love Zhaoying]

2 minutes ago, Arielle Popstar said:

No, she has posted several times during the course of the thread, the last time about 5 hours ago.

 

Well, there's an option! Make your own orb / security system (as Phil did), and make its minimum time 15 seconds.

Then, market your system and sell it, until it is the predominant security system on Second Life!

[Ardy Lay]

2 minutes ago, Codex Alpha said:

and the other of course is clearly ridiculous.

As ridiculous as comparing bump on a ban line or a safe trip home to getting killed on the sidewalk?

[Sammy Huntsman]

1 minute ago, Codex Alpha said:

Yet depending on the bylaws in your particular city, it is a reasonable expectation as part of a civil and free society in the West, that people are allowed reasonable access such as knocking on your door to say hello as a neighbour, or perhaps a Girl Guide is selling cookies, or a salesperson selling roofing or painting services wants to give you a business card, or another is dropping off a flyer, etc. Yes some people don't like that but most accept that it is a concession in a civil society, so don't automatically send the hounds against people or blow their head off for daring to knock on their door.

I don't care if someone comes up to me and goes may I come in. I will either poltiely decline or allow them to enter. There is a big difference between that and wanting unimpeded access to mainland. Like you are using an example if someone is polite enough to do that. There are plenty in SL that will just walk in and just act like it's their place too. 

[Rowan Amore]

6 minutes ago, Love Zhaoying said:

I've seen hints in the posts that maybe it's mostly drivers under lag, bad drivers, or drivers who need more practice who can be most often affected as they careen into your property. And flyers who don't know to just fly above the ban lines. 

I haven't encounter much lag.  Region crossings are much better than I remember them.  As I mentioned, I'm a horrible driver so I'm keeping my speed down to something I can manage without flying off onto someone's land although I have on several occasions.  Still in one piece, still on the road.

[Sammy Huntsman]

1 minute ago, Rowan Amore said:

I haven't encounter much lag.  Region crossings are much better than I remember them.  As I mentioned, I'm a horrible driver so I'm keeping my speed down to something I can manage without flying off onto someone's land although I have on several occasions.  Still in one piece, still on the road.

It's not as bad as a couple years ago, you cross a sim line and your car is like travelling hundreds of meters before it nicely places you back at the spot you were at or the worst the car just runs away from you. And you are stuck there looking like you are driving an invisible car. Lol 

[Scylla Rhiadra]

10 minutes ago, Sammy Huntsman said:

I don't care if someone comes up to me and goes may I come in. I will either poltiely decline or allow them to enter. There is a big difference between that and wanting unimpeded access to mainland. Like you are using an example if someone is polite enough to do that. There are plenty in SL that will just walk in and just act like it's their place too. 

Is there really anyone who is asking for unimpeded access to people's land?

Where? Please show me?

Edited June 6, 2022 by Scylla Rhiadra
Autocorrect

[Arielle Popstar]

21 minutes ago, Rowan Amore said:

So change something that doesn't need changed.  For a handful of people.  For a handful of parcels.  Yeah, makes no sense whatsoever.  There are plenty of roads and airspace over Belli.  Enjoy!

Considering LL found the need to ban orbs and ban lines in Belliseria, I would argue your point on it not needing to be changed. I don't live in Belleiseria and haven't a desire to so why should I need to go there when there is this Mainland I can tour through?

[Love Zhaoying]

9 minutes ago, Ardy Lay said:

12 minutes ago, Codex Alpha said:

and the other of course is clearly ridiculous.

As ridiculous as comparing bump on a ban line or a safe trip home to getting killed on the sidewalk?

Not just "ridiculous", but clearly ridiculous. There is a distinction.

Now we need to resolve something being "clear" and "solid" at the same time. I don't know how opacity fits in (except 100% opacity means "clear"), but definitely things can't be "phantom" (or they won't be solid).

[Arielle Popstar]

3 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

Is there really anyone who is asking doe unimpeded access to people's land?

Where? Please show me?

They have to keep up with that narrative to not seem totally unreasonable in requiring a 0 sec ban and kick.

[Love Zhaoying]

2 minutes ago, Arielle Popstar said:

Considering LL found the need to ban orbs and ban lines in Belliseria, I would argue your point on it not needing to be changed. I don't live in Belleiseria and haven't a desire to so why should I need to go there when there is this Mainland I can tour through?

It would make sense to make everyplace else like Belliseria with the same exact rules. 

Solid!

Only problem is, you can be denied access in Belliseria even if there are no ban lines. "No ban lines" just means no visible ban lines.

[Aethelwine]

1 hour ago, Rowan Amore said:

To this point, I've been riding along Route 9 for the past couple of hours.  I've yet to encounter any orbs let alone a 0 sec orb.  Take note, also, that my driving skills leave a lot to be desired.  I've veered off dozens of times and a few times on purpose.  Nothing.  Nada.

So, we're all discussing something of a rarity on mainland.  Why on earth would LL bother changing something that effects such a small percentage of people on BOTH sides of the discussion?

It is a relative rarity. Where once people might carefully fly their planes weaving above protected routes for fear of ejection, people flying are now more likely to chance their luck.

Bellisseria has very few airports (2?). The connections currently made to Satori and Sansara primarily appear to be intended for air traffic. Boats can just make the technical connection and people might feel some sense of satisfaction having technically got there even if only very few regions are open to them, but an air traveller with luck can fly all the way from Gaeta V to the South of Jeogeot, or to Heterocera.

Bellisseria and the way it has been made encourages people to fly long distances, because they can. 

I don't really think the solution requires that much of a change. The TOS section that covers griefing talks about reasonable access to the intended use of the platform (or something like that). It covers being able to dress in privacy in your home. A zero second orb that covers a private space, clearly marked as such - is totally reasonable. But I don't think that same section needs changing to interpret it as also a prohibition covering 0 second orbs that cover an entire parcel to its height limit.

What it might require is governance needing a bit more discretion to interpret situations and use their judgment and sufficient resource to do that. That might be a big ask, Governance already does something like that in Bellisseria, expanding that might be too much resource for an inconvenience. But I would say it is not a minor inconvenience, whilst I don't much fly myself I value that it is an option.

I would also like them to apply some similar discretion and enforcement at ground level where waterways have banlines on them. Again anyone sailing is unlikely to encounter them in most places because it is a rarity but go up to the Linden Village by water from the Sea of fables or make your way along the rivers from Sea of Fables to Bay of Space Pigs, there is normally one or two places where you will come across somewhere that you will get caught out if not careful or lucky with region crossings.

For a long time despite all the effort put in across Gaeta with Marinas one parcel on one corner with oppressive security spoilt the Linden investment in waterways and all the private investment of the landowners for the whole continent by cutting the waterways into two.

The situations are rare, which is an argument for why Governance could get involved and could with use of discretion make a big difference.   

Edited June 6, 2022 by Aethelwine

[Rowan Amore]

11 minutes ago, Arielle Popstar said:

Considering LL found the need to ban orbs and ban lines in Belliseria, I would argue your point on it not needing to be changed. I don't live in Belleiseria and haven't a desire to so why should I need to go there when there is this Mainland I can tour through?

Yep, touring it now without any orb issues.  Perhaps they restricted orbs for people like you and others who requested it.

 

4 minutes ago, Aethelwine said:

 

The situations are rare, which is an argument for why Governance could get involved and could with use of discretion make a big difference.   

IMO, these should be dealt with on a case to case basis instead of an overall change to the Mainland.   Since they ARE rarity, it seems it would effect less people overall.  Fix your orb, done.

Edited June 6, 2022 by Rowan Amore

[Aethelwine]

Just now, Rowan Amore said:

IMO, these should be dealt with on a case to case basis instead of an overall change to the Mainland.   Since they ARE rarity, it seems it would effect less people overall.  Fix your orb, done.

Yes totally agree.

[Scylla Rhiadra]

6 minutes ago, Aethelwine said:

a private space, clearly marked as such

This is maybe key. Although more difficult to manage in the air. One sim I often visit that is both public and residential has signs, reasonably attractive ones, in front of every private residence marking them as such. If you're going to have an orb with less than a 10 or 5 second response rate, that seems to me least you can do.

The thing is, it's not always easy to tell what is "public" and what if "private" on the mainland. A little house on the roadside? Well, yes, of course -- I wouldn't intrude even were it open. But there are large builds that could be public, but aren't . . . "palaces," or clubs, for instance, where some guidance would be helpful.

[Arielle Popstar]

2 minutes ago, Rowan Amore said:

IMO, these should be dealt with on a case to case basis instead of an overall change to the Mainland.   Since they ARE rarity, it seems it would effect less people overall.  Fix your orb, done.

The fact that you and some other are still arguing combined with this section of @Aethelwine post:

Quote

For a long time despite all the effort put in across Gaeta with Marinas one parcel on one corner with oppressive security spoilt the Linden investment in waterways and all the private investment of the landowners for the whole continent by cutting the waterways into two.

It would be better to just nip it in the bud and make a rule on it so that there is no question. At the very least a parcel owner will not be able to kill the investment of both the Lab and private investment as well as the inconvenience of a multitude of boaters by the inconsiderate behaviour of one person.

[Love Zhaoying]

12 minutes ago, Aethelwine said:

It is a relative rarity. Where once people might carefully fly their planes weaving above protected routes for fear of ejection, people flying are now more likely to chance their luck.

I thought if you flew above "X" height, then you aren't impacted by restrictions?

[Rowan Amore]

On a more pleasant note, at least gas prices are low!