Does Second Life plan to get into NFTs ?

[Ardy Lay]

Don't need 'blockchain' to do any of that.  I'd just use cryptographically signed receipts stored "someplace reliable" and given to each yacht purchaser.  Linking in swarms of people and their computers to make it a "block chain" application seems like 'a bad move' to me.  Surely you are not doing that just to ride the hype?  Doesn't sound like you care about the hype.  Sounds like you care about yachts and people that like them.  My advice is to not sully your community and your business plan by associating them with the open hooliganism that is "NFT" as the media knows it.  Sure, it's just three words jammed together resulting in much confusion as people try to define it.

I have one suggestion, or maybe it's a question?  When you have a Second Life region with a yacht installed, can you include scenery that passes by in the distance to give the illusion of travelling?

[Istelathis]

On 3/10/2022 at 12:40 PM, Qie Niangao said:

Speaking of integration: Could Linden Lab declare that the only legitimate NFTs of SL content must be issued under license to the Lab? You know, to make sure they're true SL NFTs and therefore have value as collectibles, as opposed to letting the market flood with NFTs that just anybody and everybody can mint?

And then could LL simply refuse to license any NFTs, effectively declaring SL an NFT-free zone?

I don't think it would have any impact, as a lot of the people creating NFTs wouldn't care.  From my understanding when a person buys an NFT, they are usually just buying a receipt.  SL has nothing to do with NFTs because it is stored off of their servers, the actual product the NFT promises to deliver may still be on their asset servers but it is not at all NFT it is just a model, with textures, and all associated features an asset has.  The product itself, what the person is purchasing, which is more of a contract or often a URL, is stored on the blockchain.  The person who purchases this NFT, can later sell it and I would think a link to where the mesh can be downloaded so another person can later upload it to SL.

I think perhaps, the original creator of the work in this case would have to follow the NFT for the rest of his life, delivering on all of the promises made on it, such as maintaining regions to accommodate a theme, having the mesh available to be downloaded, etc, etc.. of course, I doubt that in thirty years anyone will be up to maintaining all of these NFTs and the contracts will have been long since broken meaning the only thing of value would be a receipt, that points to a product that no longer is shelved.  I think for a lot of NFTs, even a shelf life of five years would be impressive and that will probably be the downfall of the entire concept.  I don't think SL will even need to take any action because of this.  Even if there are genuinely trustworthy people, who do hold up on their deal, there will be many others that don't.

People are not likely to put trust in a system, that is so easily manipulated and plagued with scam artists, where the contracts are not honored, especially when there are other platforms that have existed for years and have established themselves as trustworthy.

Edited March 11, 2022 by Istelathis

[animats]

On 3/9/2022 at 6:53 AM, MichaelCorleone Losangeles said:

As an NFT I think I can sell them for $5-$10K or more if I also include an interior designer to work with you in furnishing your yacht, Include your own profit island or home with a dock, with prepaid tier for a period of time.

There might be a market for that. The Grove Estates in SL is in that business. They're an isolated set of islands, though, without much sailable water.

The yacht prim counts seem excessive. The biggest yacht at Sunny Bay, which sells some of the biggest yachts in SL, is 495LI. The biggest yacht docked at Siren's Isle right now, where the party crowd hangs out, is 214 LI. All of those can sail the Blake Sea. If you can't take it somewhere to show it off, what's the point?

(Yachts in SL would be more fun if LL fixed region crossings, so that you could reliably expect all your guests to survive the trip.)

[Sammy Huntsman]

If they get into NFTs, I will not buy into that scam.

[Coffee Pancake]

14 hours ago, MichaelCorleone Losangeles said:

And here you are @Coffee Pancakehanging out on a Metaverse chat board. I’m focused on the technology blockchain is not going away and it will add greater value to true digital asset creators. Facebook……I mean Meta……isn’t spending 10B on a whacked out bubble.

You are misunderstanding facebook's use of the term meta.

They wish to dominate the space by owning the words, Metaverse was a generic term till FB renamed their entire company meta, now it's impossible to have a discussion about the metaverse without mentioning them. They are free to define their metaverse as anything they like, although I would bet money on it not involving any kind of blockchain - because honestly, why would they. Meta are a private company with a great deal of secrecy and a regular database is orders of magnitude faster and more efficient. There is absolutely no reason for them to attach an albatross blockchain to anything they do.

Blockchain and Metaverse are two entirely separate technologies. There is no requirement for either of them to have anything to do with the other, although the crypto peeps are very eager to try and ride the new buzz words coat tails.

There are blockchain metaverses, they are not Second Life. They also tend to be devoid of people .. because who actually needs or wants a social scene in the middle of a pump and dump ponzi scam. 

 

If you join any of the NFT project discord channels (and you should if your business model is NFT based), you will find a very different kind of community.

 

[MichaelCorleone Losangeles]

@Coffee Pancakeyou keep make some assumption about where I am on these issues. It will help the dialogue if we define the terms we are using. I define metaverse as all immersive multi-player platforms that allow interaction and communication between participants. Facebook understands that we are moving beyond text, image, sound and video forms of communication to new immersive experiences. The gaming industry leads the way in these immersive experiences with games like Fortnight, Rodblox and GTA as a few examples. Facebook is trying to figure out they place in the metaverse. Blockchain metaverses right now is primarily pay to play models. For me Second Life falls into the aspirational lifestyle category.  As we all know SL also has a pay to play component to it. I'm only interested in the aspirational lifestyle category, particular the area of ownership of aspirational lifestyle digital assets the users would like to own in the real world. Second Life is obviously the leader in that category. But if it doesn't innovate it will lose that position. 

[MichaelCorleone Losangeles]

1 hour ago, Coffee Pancake said:

You are misunderstanding facebook's use of the term meta.

They wish to dominate the space by owning the words, Metaverse was a generic term till FB renamed their entire company meta, now it's impossible to have a discussion about the metaverse without mentioning them. They are free to define their metaverse as anything they like, although I would bet money on it not involving any kind of blockchain - because honestly, why would they. Meta are a private company with a great deal of secrecy and a regular database is orders of magnitude faster and more efficient. There is absolutely no reason for them to attach an albatross blockchain to anything they do.

Blockchain and Metaverse are two entirely separate technologies. There is no requirement for either of them to have anything to do with the other, although the crypto peeps are very eager to try and ride the new buzz words coat tails.

There are blockchain metaverses, they are not Second Life. They also tend to be devoid of people .. because who actually needs or wants a social scene in the middle of a pump and dump ponzi scam. 

 

If you join any of the NFT project discord channels (and you should if your business model is NFT based), you will find a very different kind of community.

 

I'm already on Discord that's primarily for staying immersed in the blockchain metaverse projects. 

[Qie Niangao]

2 hours ago, Istelathis said:

I don't think it would have any impact, as a lot of the people creating NFTs wouldn't care.  From my understanding when a person buys an NFT, they are usually just buying a receipt.  SL has nothing to do with NFTs because it is stored off of their servers, the actual product the NFT promises to deliver may still be on their asset servers but it is not at all NFT it is just a model, with textures, and all associated features an asset has.  The product itself, what the person is purchasing, which is more of a contract or often a URL, is stored on the blockchain.  The person who purchases this NFT, can later sell it and I would think a link to where the mesh can be downloaded so another person can later upload it to SL.

I think perhaps, the original creator of the work in this case would have to follow the NFT for the rest of his life, delivering on all of the promises made on it, such as maintaining regions to accommodate a theme, having the mesh available to be downloaded, etc, etc.. of course, I doubt that in thirty years anyone will be up to maintaining all of these NFTs and the contracts will have been long since broken meaning the only thing of value would be a receipt, that points to a product that no longer is shelved.  I think for a lot of NFTs, even a shelf life of five years would be impressive and that will probably be the downfall of the entire concept.  I don't think SL will even need to take any action because of this.  Even if there are genuinely trustworthy people, who do hold up on their deal, there will be many others that don't.

People are not likely to put trust in a system, that is so easily manipulated and plagued with scam artists, where the contracts are not honored, especially when there are other platforms that have existed for years and have established themselves as trustworthy.

Yeah, I was being a bit tongue-in-cheek, hoping to lead the reader down a dark alley. My problem with NFTs is: Who says what one particular NFT means? It's ultimately that "authority" that matters to its value. 1Oh, the indexing technology is cool, but the very definition of uniqueness depends on that authority again.

We might have great—almost provable—trust in that indexing, but there's such art and artifice in that authority's expression of what this particular NFT even means. The ledger may be distributed but the entire value of the NFT derives from trusted curation, and an auction is an expression of that trust, not a substitute for it.

And also yes, excellent point on "shelf life" and the potential bit-rot of a digital content NFT. 

[MichaelCorleone Losangeles]

7 minutes ago, Qie Niangao said:

Yeah, I was being a bit tongue-in-cheek, hoping to lead the reader down a dark alley. My problem with NFTs is: Who says what one particular NFT means? It's ultimately that "authority" that matters to its value. 1Oh, the indexing technology is cool, but the very definition of uniqueness depends on that authority again.

We might have great—almost provable—trust in that indexing, but there's such art and artifice in that authority's expression of what this particular NFT even means. The ledger may be distributed but the entire value of the NFT derives from trusted curation, and an auction is an expression of that trust, not a substitute for it.

And also yes, excellent point on "shelf life" and the potential bit-rot of a digital content NFT. 

The point that seems to be missed in this conversation, but not for digital asset creator like myself is the relevance of Second Life moving forward. Right now its relevance is diminishing. Blockchain and other Metaverse are sucking up all the oxygen in the room thus the dollars allocated to digital assets. 

[Qie Niangao]

19 minutes ago, MichaelCorleone Losangeles said:

Right now its relevance is diminishing.

So… SL-based NFTs would be of strictly commemorative value? In the market of digital museums?

(Can we at least invent a VR wikia first?)

[Qie Niangao]

This 9600 baud modem, do I need to take a 3D scan or can I just load its barcode to an NFT? (The original needs DTMF dial-tone on RJ11 twisted-pair for the full experience.)

[Mollymews]

6 hours ago, MichaelCorleone Losangeles said:

All of that will be specified in the NFT associated with my yachts

you will also need to specify that Linden Lab also has a Service Content License on any content asset uploaded to their servers, applicable on any platform of Linden's choosing as determined solely by them. A Service Content License granted by its users, which the Lab does not have to provide payment compensation for

this is defined in Section 2.3 of the Linden Lab Terms of Service.  Para 5 extract:

Quote

you hereby grant to Linden Lab, and you agree to grant to Linden Lab, the non-exclusive, unrestricted, unconditional, unlimited, worldwide, irrevocable, perpetual, and cost-free right and license to use, copy, record, distribute, reproduce, disclose, modify, display, publicly perform, transmit, publish, broadcast, translate, make derivative works of, and sell, re-sell or sublicense (through multiple levels)(with respect to each Product or otherwise on the Service as permitted by you through your interactions with the Service), and otherwise exploit in any manner whatsoever, all or any portion of your User Content (and derivative works thereof), for any purpose whatsoever in all formats, on or through any media, software, formula, or medium now known or hereafter developed, and with any technology or devices now known or hereafter developed

this Service Content License needs to thought about carefully when considering what you are hoping/wanting to do

[MichaelCorleone Losangeles]

3 hours ago, Ardy Lay said:

Don't need 'blockchain' to do any of that.  I'd just use cryptographically signed receipts stored "someplace reliable" and given to each yacht purchaser.  Linking in swarms of people and their computers to make it a "block chain" application seems like 'a bad move' to me.  Surely you are not doing that just to ride the hype?  Doesn't sound like you care about the hype.  Sounds like you care about yachts and people that like them.  My advice is to not sully your community and your business plan by associating them with the open hooliganism that is "NFT" as the media knows it.  Sure, it's just three words jammed together resulting in much confusion as people try to define it.

I have one suggestion, or maybe it's a question?  When you have a Second Life region with a yacht installed, can you include scenery that passes by in the distance to give the illusion of travelling?

This video will better help you understand the scope of my yacht project. My yachts are live aboard and not moveable. From the video you will see that my yachts interiors are highly customizable so its not possible to move all those individual pieces to make it mobile. There are some really good mesh yachts out there but there limitations are realistic scale and the yachts one big mesh object so you can't modify them. https://screencast-o-matic.com/watch/c3eX3LVFZyA

[MichaelCorleone Losangeles]

26 minutes ago, Mollymews said:

you will also need to specify that Linden Lab also has a Service Content License on any content asset uploaded to their servers, applicable on any platform of Linden's choosing as determined solely by them. A Service Content License granted by its users, which the Lab does not have to provide payment compensation for

this is defined in Section 2.3 of the Linden Lab Terms of Service.  Para 5 extract:

this Service Content License needs to thought about carefully when considering what you are hoping/wanting to do

That is something SL is going to have to take a second look at because those types of r restriction on sole ownership of digital ownership by the creator makes blockchain metaverses more of an appealing options. By importing a copy of my yacht into SL, does SL take responsibility to insure that copies of my work are not exported out of Second LIfe. 

[MichaelCorleone Losangeles]

9 minutes ago, MichaelCorleone Losangeles said:

That is something SL is going to have to take a second look at because those types of r restriction on sole ownership of digital ownership by the creator makes blockchain metaverses more of an appealing options. By importing a copy of my yacht into SL, does SL take responsibility to insure that copies of my work are not exported out of Second LIfe. 

Just read it in its entirety, it's only a matter of time before SL will become completely irrelevant. Thats an insane requirement and limits your digital assets ability to retain or increase in value. It may be a ways still out there, but thanks Linden Lab's by clarifying the value proposition of blockchain based metaverses. Now I get it. 

[Rowan Amore]

Personally, I'd want a ship that moved.  Otherwise, it's merely a houseboat.  That doesn't move.

But, good.luck!

[Mollymews]

1 hour ago, MichaelCorleone Losangeles said:

Just read it in its entirety, it's only a matter of time before SL will become completely irrelevant. Thats an insane requirement and limits your digital assets ability to retain or increase in value. It may be a ways still out there, but thanks Linden Lab's by clarifying the value proposition of blockchain based metaverses. Now I get it. 

this ToS change came in quite a few years ago now, so is not a recent thing

at the time the license did come in, it raised a bit of angst amongst the then creative community

it resulted in a number of 3rd party digital shops  changing their own Terms of Service, prohibiting their store customers from uploading sold assets to Linden Lab (Second Life) servers

it also resulted in a number of creatives removing their inventories and closing their Second Life accounts

as well, it resulted in some estate owners closing down their estates. In other cases transferring control of the estate to another person who would accept the terms so that the community of users of the estate could continue

yet despite all of this happening back then, Second Life just kept puttering along as it does

Second Life users in general are a pretty sticky bunch, they don't quit easy. And as you are becoming aware (from the exchanges you are having just on this forum alone) a significant number of Second Life users are vastly experienced internet users - they have seen a lot of things come and go over a long period of time - seen ideas/stuff here today gone tomorrow, and watch as the worlds around them jump to the next shiny. And to be fair some of those shinies work out great, other times not so much and sink without a trace

during all of this time, these people keep on logging in to Second Life. Paying for the experience they have, and have had all down thru these last 18 or so years. And because they are not overly distracted by whatever the latest shiny is (even tho many of us do like shiny) they keep on logging in and paying for the experience they have

 

[MichaelCorleone Losangeles]

14 hours ago, Rowan Amore said:

Personally, I'd want a ship that moved.  Otherwise, it's merely a houseboat.  That doesn't move.

But, good.luck!

Think of yachts like mansion you can move to exotic locations and take all your water toys with you. 

[Rowan Amore]

1 minute ago, MichaelCorleone Losangeles said:

Think of yachts like mansion you can move to exotic locations and take all your water toys with you. 

It's SL.  I can take any house and put it anywhere.  If you're putting your yacht anywhere but mainland, your water toys won't have much use as most homesteads/full private regions are insular.

I can understand what you're trying to do.  I just don't see an audience in SL that would be willing to pay $4000 for, frankly, anything.  I'll admit paying upwards of 10000L for a home once but  $40 is far from $4000.

 

 

[MichaelCorleone Losangeles]

1 minute ago, Rowan Amore said:

It's SL.  I can take any house and put it anywhere.  If you're putting your yacht anywhere but mainland, your water toys won't have much use as most homesteads/full private regions are insular.

I can understand what you're trying to do.  I just don't see an audience in SL that would be willing to pay $4000 for, frankly, anything.  I'll admit paying upwards of 10000L for a home once but  $40 is far from $4000.

 

 

Now your starting to understand why I want to market my yachts and Second Life on Openseas introduce a whole new audience to Second Life. These are yachts with no interiors associated with no metaverses just 3D models. They all sold for one Eth roughly $2,600 US 

[MichaelCorleone Losangeles]

Just now, MichaelCorleone Losangeles said:

Now your starting to understand why I want to market my yachts and Second Life on Openseas introduce a whole new audience to Second Life. These are yachts with no interiors associated with no metaverses just 3D models. They all sold for one Eth roughly $2,600 US 

https://opensea.io/CloudYachts?search[sortBy]=LAST_SALE_DATE&search[sortAscending]=

[Rowan Amore]

1 minute ago, MichaelCorleone Losangeles said:

They all sold for one Eth roughly $2,600 US

As P.T Barnum said, "There's a sucker born every minute."

[MichaelCorleone Losangeles]

People can say that about people in Second Life who have spent thousands of dollars on micro transactions to create an alternative life. Second Life is Instagram on steroids where people live out their aspirational lives and willing to pay a lot of money to do it. 

[MichaelCorleone Losangeles]

6 minutes ago, Rowan Amore said:

As P.T Barnum said, "There's a sucker born every minute."

Here’s a sucker https://hypebeast.com/2021/11/the-metaflower-super-mega-yacht-nft-sells-for-a-record-650000-usd

[Coffee Pancake]

 

No one in SL is going to buy a US $2000 yacht, even if they get to buy it as an NFT.

No one outside SL is going to by a SL yacht for $2000 .. because .. ewwww Second Life, that's from 2004.

 

And yes, we do spend thousands of US$ on microtransactions. The salient point being that they are microtransactions, with the majority being under $5US. Wouldn't even cover the gas fees if this was all blurkchain.