What is it to be a Human?

[FairreLilette]

43 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

Yes that makes sense in their country of origin, but what about when they spread to the Americas, or to other parts of the globe....it appears conquering and domination was okay in their mind, and even labeled as 'saving the savages', or in later years as 'bringing democracy'. This is a hallmark of the patriarchy.

I know so little about it really.  Escaping religious persecution I've heard before as far as North America.  South America was invaded by the Catholics rather than the Protestants.  Greed/belief they were greater than others due to their education I'd gather and felt it was time that all be clothed and not naked.  Many early church peoples had a problem with natives who were naked.  That made them a nothing although many of those men had no problem having unmarried sex with the native women, and it's in the Bible that one can have concubines after a "war".  Sounds like they wrote that for themselves.  Also having sex with a native women gave one a kind of half heir upon the land they were invading.  The patriarchy came from the churches at the time of the invading of the Americas, I'd think, albeit most were hypocrites and obviously not sinless.  

Colonial America (1492-1763) European nations came to the Americas to increase their wealth and broaden their influence over world affairs. ... Many of the people who settled in the New World came to escape religious persecution. The Pilgrims, founders of Plymouth, Massachusetts, arrived in 1620.

Edited June 19, 2021 by FairreLilette

[Doris Johnsky]

59 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

You are terribly misinformed regarding autistic people. They have emotions.

I'll grant you that you're correct. Bad choice of words.    I should have simply said people who are "seemingly"  unemotional. 

[Chroma Starlight]

1 hour ago, Doris Johnsky said:

(earlier) Rational means to "rationalize" whatever fits... Emotional means to react to various stimulus... Spirituality is a part of rationally and emotionally defining how we as humans perceive and react to  life.

I'll grant you that you're correct. Bad choice of words.    I should have simply said people who are "seemingly"  unemotional. 

It's funny, I had this odd encounter the other week. There was a "thump" sound against the garden-level sliding glass door. The cat had just run into the glass at full speed not realizing in the moment that it was there, and the baby bird just beyond, who turned around and saw sudden death leaping at them was just sitting there.

Nothing had physically harmed them, but they were just agog, like a thousand-mile stare. Their parents hovered at the periphery, daring not come closer to me or the cat just inside  the glass. All the other babies had fled, but this one thought they were dead, and I don't think they stuck around for the bit where they die painfully. They were like "nope, time to flee this body." If this were a cartoon, there'd be a little star circling around their head as they look goofily dazed. 
 

I recall that I had seen it before, once, as a kid growing up living on a farm estate in Pennsylvania, I came across a snake in the process of eating a toad next to the barn, and the toad was just as placid as could be. You'd think they'd be struggling for their life, but no. It seems it's something that happens around shock and trauma, maybe a touch of mercy for life that is devoured.  

Something about seeing this natural drama playing out with the snake triggered me, it wasn't fear, nor revulsion, just something, like I couldn't really stand what I was seeing and I reacted, but it didn't really help because the only disorder there was me as it seems there was an important universal message encoded in all that scene.

I sometimes wonder if there are highly gifted sensitive people, who can change and grow rapidly, like they've got one foot in the meta, their minds are mercurial and fine. But as a consequence of this trait, especially while they're very young, maybe if they're exposed to stress, they flee, or if they're especially bright, they construct a very low-level response to the world that makes them turn inward to something more harmonious. I supposed we could examine if something like traditional ritualistic genital mutilation could be involved in making people more predisposed to dissociative conditions, where part of themselves operates disconnected from the part most closely identified with the experience of consciousness. 

Then, ironically, it might be that autistic people actually are much more intensely emotional, but they've walled it all in, back in their safe space, the one they build because this world is confused about how to properly nurture children. Who can say. And in truth, it's all things at all times. What it meant to be autistic might even be relative to the culture in which you're born; in some, you wind up being guided toward spiritual or artistic work, in others you're abused like an animal that is reviled because you'll never be a valuable cog in someone's machine according to the actuarial tables these guys operate on. After all, clearly, you're not at all intelligent and can't understand their debased unnatural system at all! So it goes. It's as if someone really broke human culture, and it must have taken the really hard persistent sustained work of centuries to drive out so completely the timeless wisdom of the ages. 

Empedocles was right, you should put yourself behind the eyes of every single creature you see, because it's like that. Imagine you're an animal without a voice that the "human" beings can recognize and so they never open up to you, and it's always like "well, you'd've known I was this creature had you at any point actually asked, like really asked, what my internal life is. Your indifference is what led you to conclude there was no consciousness, no living intelligence, here in this system.  How do you even distinguish a mildly autistic kid who's been traumatized or neglected from someone who is truly low on the scale of ability, or would you just conflate the two?" It's best to assume that our perspectives are really truly so limited that we cannot judge, we literally don't know what's going on. Most people these days don't even seem to know themselves deeply. 

Edited June 19, 2021 by Chroma Starlight

[Doris Johnsky]

Chroma, what you said reminds me of the D.H Lawrence quote:

"I never saw a wild thing sorry for itself. A small bird will drop frozen dead from a bough without ever having felt sorry for itself."

 

Which is the crux of what makes humans different.  Humans would fight and struggle to survive whereas the bird, or frog in your example would not. 

[Chroma Starlight]

1 hour ago, Doris Johnsky said:

Chroma, what you said reminds me of the D.H Lawrence quote:

"I never saw a wild thing sorry for itself. A small bird will drop frozen dead from a bough without ever having felt sorry for itself."

Which is the crux of what makes humans different.  Humans would fight and struggle to survive whereas the bird, or frog in your example would not. 

I don't believe that's true generally. There are plenty of humans who choose not to struggle in the face of seemingly overwhelming odds. I'm sure there are also certain individuals that just won't give up, no matter what species they are or what's trying to eat them.

The lucky snake crawls out of the mouth of a larger snake in 2011. PHOTOGRAPH BY DICK MULDER

(from https://www.nationalgeographic.com/animals/article/150120-snakes-predators-prey-animals-science-greece)

Edited June 20, 2021 by Chroma Starlight

[Doris Johnsky]

Like this guy?

 

[Amanda Crisp]

I think of “human” as one with the ability to comprehend the abstracts of ethics and morality as well as the capacity to realize obligations to (and the need for)  the higher rungs of Maslow’s Hierarchy of Need.

They can make effective, qualitative decisions about the world around them and be influenced by more than “Eat/Sleep/Excrete/Reproduce”

I would *like* to think that altruism is a distinctly human trait - but several generations of Mama Dogs & Cats have shown me that this might not be entirely the case 🙂

Maybe this leads to a better question; “Are all Homo Sapiens Human or do Homo Sapiens exist who do not possess Humanity?”

 

Edited June 20, 2021 by Amanda Crisp

[Amanda Crisp]

11 hours ago, FairreLilette said:

I know so little about it really.  Escaping religious persecution I've heard before as far as North America.  South America was invaded by the Catholics rather than the Protestants.  Greed/belief they were greater than others due to their education I'd gather and felt it was time that all be clothed and not naked.  Many early church peoples had a problem with natives who were naked.  That made them a nothing although many of those men had no problem having unmarried sex with the native women, and it's in the Bible that one can have concubines after a "war".  Sounds like they wrote that for themselves.  Also having sex with a native women gave one a kind of half heir upon the land they were invading.  The patriarchy came from the churches at the time of the invading of the Americas, I'd think, albeit most were hypocrites and obviously not sinless.  

Colonial America (1492-1763) European nations came to the Americas to increase their wealth and broaden their influence over world affairs. ... Many of the people who settled in the New World came to escape religious persecution. The Pilgrims, founders of Plymouth, Massachusetts, arrived in 1620.

The history of the world until quite recently was/is underpinned by the Victor’s “right” to plunder and oppress the Vanquished.

It looks even more horrible to modern eyes because we like to think we are progressing beyond that.

We like to think that…..

Politics and many religions played equal parts in rationalizing that state of mind, which goes all the way back to the stone-age.

Many people have ethics and morals that last about as long as six missed meals, regardless of their espoused ideology. Until that changes, I’m not optimistic about the human race’s prospects at become “humane” and “civilized” no matter what our pretensions.

Still, thats a good reason to try harder at building a better Human 🙂 We have a big brain; now we need to train it 🙂

 

Edited June 20, 2021 by Amanda Crisp

[Innula Zenovka]

9 hours ago, Doris Johnsky said:

"I never saw a wild thing sorry for itself. A small bird will drop frozen dead from a bough without ever having felt sorry for itself."

How many small birds, I wonder, did  he observe dropping frozen dead from boughs (I grew up in the same area as Lawrence, and it's not something I'd call an everyday sight), and how on earth did  he know how they felt (other, presumably, than cold), either at the time or in the past?       

[Chroma Starlight]

4 hours ago, Amanda Crisp said:

I think of “human” as one with the ability to comprehend the abstracts of ethics and morality as well as the capacity to realize obligations to (and the need for)  the higher rungs of Maslow’s Hierarchy of Need.

They can make effective, qualitative decisions about the world around them and be influenced by more than “Eat/Sleep/Excrete/Reproduce”

Maybe this leads to a better question; “Are all Homo Sapiens Human or do Homo Sapiens exist who do not possess Humanity?”

I think humanity is about the fusion of heaven and Earth, and what that means in practical terms is that human beings are by very definition divine creatures, and that means something direct and spiritual rather than something of an institution or quantity. That's why it's universal and not limited to any one form or scale of life.

Definitions of humanity that are not universal fall flat. This may be one the reasons why morality is far too simplistic; it depends upon constantly evaluating and judging the world according to some abstract notion or even just an allusion to such a notion, one that's quite vague and relative when cross-examined in universal terms. In the end, morality was always about reinforcing a particular predilection or frame of view upon all, endlessly rationalizing its own ill behavior in order to maintain it. That's morality, that's what it is. It's an imposed system of control conceived by man that purports to be divine but isn't and the convincing examples of this are certainly myriad, infinite, and timeless. Morality was a failed attempt to codify something that was dynamic and intuitive and living into stone like a pinned dead butterfly in a display case by the victors of one particular battle in the mad deluded hope that this then would settle the dispute forever, but it didn't and it never will; it can't because morality was never universal.

Therefore I think of a human, that is to say, as per the definition itself, "one who is great and a fusion of heaven and Earth," as one with the ability to comprehend the limited nature of their own perspective and realize that for this reason they cannot judge. To do so would be to confuse being an expression of universal higher things with instead believing himself to be those high things. It's hubris.

3 hours ago, Amanda Crisp said:

The history of the world until quite recently was/is underpinned by the Victor’s “right” to plunder and oppress the Vanquished.

It looks even more horrible to modern eyes because we like to think we are progressing beyond that.

We like to think that…..

Politics and many religions played equal parts in rationalizing that state of mind, which goes all the way back to the stone-age.

Many people have ethics and morals that last about as long as six missed meals, regardless of their espoused ideology. Until that changes, I’m not optimistic about the human race’s prospects at become “humane” and “civilized” no matter what our pretensions.

Still, thats a good reason to try harder at building a better Human 🙂 We have a big brain; now we need to train it 🙂

I am not sure that I can agree with this. Nobody credible agrees that the victor's right is to plunder and oppress the vanquished. That's civil war in a world this small. If we are civilized then when we disagree we do it in a way that acknowledges in the long run we must reconcile our differences and coexist. Even with a cursory glance, it seems apparent that the peak of human civilization happens again and again, it is always right here, the dawn of a golden age, and the usual suspects come along and pillage and burn it in order "to prove" that human civilization just is not advanced and they should stay in charge of and at the apex of this vast pyramid scheme they have been building. Can't they see that they are sick? Can't they feel it? Don't they want to be well again?

It does not take sophistication in order to understand the situation with regard to why we cannot seem to have nice things like human civilization on this twenty-first century Earth. It is because the same criminals who commit the atrocities have stolen power and subverted justice and they use this enslaving machine that they have built in order to dominate and destructively enslave almost everything alive in a most grievous manner. 

Edited June 20, 2021 by Chroma Starlight

[Amanda Crisp]

12 minutes ago, Chroma Starlight said:

I am not sure that I can agree with this. Nobody credible agrees that the victor's right is to plunder and oppress the vanquished.

Oh, I’m not saying it was RIGHT 🙂 I’m saying thats how it was done (and that we can do better).

I once had the very sad duty of trying to help identify bodies that were victims of “ethnic cleansing” and I still have the emotional baggage to show for it.

I *still* believe we can do better, but I’m pragmatic about what an uphill battle it will be against eons of Bad Tradition.

[Chroma Starlight]

3 minutes ago, Amanda Crisp said:

Oh, I’m not saying it was RIGHT 🙂 I’m saying thats how it was done (and that we can do better).

I once had the very sad duty of trying to help identify bodies that were victims of “ethnic cleansing” and I still have the emotional baggage to show for it.

I *still* believe we can do better, but I’m pragmatic about what an uphill battle it will be against eons of Bad Tradition.

It will go right on happening as long as people look right on past the issue at its symptoms.

[Solar Legion]

Word. Choice. Matters.

[Theresa Tennyson]

13 hours ago, Doris Johnsky said:

Chroma, what you said reminds me of the D.H Lawrence quote:

"I never saw a wild thing sorry for itself. A small bird will drop frozen dead from a bough without ever having felt sorry for itself."

 

Which is the crux of what makes humans different.  Humans would fight and struggle to survive whereas the bird, or frog in your example would not. 

Perhaps the crux of what makes humans "different" is the ability to use language to record their delusions of difference.

[FairreLilette]

1 hour ago, Chroma Starlight said:

I am not sure that I can agree with this. Nobody credible agrees that the victor's right is to plunder and oppress the vanquished. That's civil war in a world this small. If we are civilized then when we disagree we do it in a way that....

Sorry my copy for quote cut off there.

I was thinking the other day about my grandparents and my ancestors who may have been left behind in Poland and how these people just came into their homes and towns and stole everything in World War I.  The invaders plundered and stole half of Poland if not more including their music and art and just everything, claiming it was theirs.  My grandmother made it out of Poland in 1917 with just one steamer trunk, got on a boat and finally landed at Ellis Island in New York.  

It's land.  There are people who are continually believing that land is theirs and it's gone on for Centuries.  It's going on now between the Israelis and Palestinians.  And, it's going on now between China and Taiwan.  One American in Washington said if China takes Taiwan, it's over.  

All of this is fighting for land.  People are evil, Chroma.  Many of them are if one looks throughout history.  And they want their political and religious system only to prevail.

There is enough land on this Earth to share and I cannot comprehend why it cannot be shared.

Edited June 20, 2021 by FairreLilette

[Silent Mistwalker]

1 hour ago, FairreLilette said:

There is enough land on this Earth to share and I cannot comprehend why it cannot be shared.

Because there isn't enough landmass to support billions of humans. The population isn't sustainable and the planet hasn't been making more land, it's  been reducing it. Higher sea levels.

[Luna Bliss]

2 hours ago, Solar Legion said:

Word. Choice. Matters.

A Light exists in Spring by Emily Dickinson

A Light exists in Spring Not present on the Year At any other period — When March is scarcely here A Color stands abroad On Solitary Fields That Science cannot overtake But Human Nature feels. It waits upon the Lawn, It shows the furthest Tree Upon the furthest Slope you know It almost speaks to you. Then as Horizons step Or Noons report away Without the Formula of sound It passes and we stay — A quality of loss Affecting our Content As Trade had suddenly encroached Upon a Sacrament.

[Luna Bliss]

3 hours ago, Chroma Starlight said:

It does not take sophistication in order to understand the situation with regard to why we cannot seem to have nice things like human civilization on this twenty-first century Earth. It is because the same criminals who commit the atrocities have stolen power and subverted justice and they use this enslaving machine that they have built in order to dominate and destructively enslave almost everything alive in a most grievous manner. 

I think more and more I view it as cyclical in nature, and so there will never be a 'heaven on earth'.  But despite this, we need to 'fight the good fight' and seek love, and progress more into 'spirit' (love).  Do we arrive anywhere in our personal spiritual quest?  Some Yogi's do think so. I'm not so sure.

The process of individual evolution seems similar to the development of the Universe --  how in the 'beginning' there was only the non-material world (spirit), and then the big bang manifested the physical. The physical will eventually fade away into spirit again and then another big bang will occur.  Over and over, forever.

[Chroma Starlight]

10 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

I think more and more I view it as cyclical in nature, and so there will never be a 'heaven on earth'.  But despite this, we need to 'fight the good fight' and seek love, and progress more into 'spirit' (love).  Do we arrive anywhere in our personal spiritual quest?  Some Yogi's do think so. I'm not so sure.

The process of individual evolution seems similar to the development of the Universe --  how in the 'beginning' there was only the non-material world (spirit), and then the big bang manifested the physical. The physical will eventually fade away into spirit again and then another big bang will occur.  Over and over, forever.

I suppose that it used to be reasonable to conclude as you seem to here that this is some eternal wheel turning, but it seems at this point we have all now gained enough insight into the past, present, and possible futures to realize that this is not business as usual, not any more. If this wheel isn't stopped and broken forever right now, humanity as well as most if not all higher life on this Earth will expire in the next two-hundred years if even. These are the fading moments when it may still be possible for us as individuals and an ascended form of our species to endure, riding along a timeline that leads to other possibilities, but the gates seem to be closing fast and the time to wake up and intuit your way out of this fate and to a more hopeful future is right now and not tomorrow.

Edited June 20, 2021 by Chroma Starlight

[Luna Bliss]

13 minutes ago, Chroma Starlight said:

I suppose that it used to be reasonable to conclude as you seem to here that this is some eternal wheel turning, but it seems at this point we have all now gained enough insight into the past, present, and possible futures to realize that this is not business as usual, not any more. If this wheel isn't stopped and broken forever right now, humanity as well as most if not all higher life on this Earth will expire in the next two-hundred years if even. These are the fading moments when it may still be possible for us as individuals and an ascended form of our species to endure, riding along a timeline that leads to other possibilities, but the gates seem to be closing fast and the time to wake up and intuit your way out of this fate and to a more hopeful future is right now and not tomorrow.

Why wouldn't it be okay for, say, dolphins to ascend toward spirituality in millions of years?  What's so special about us humans that it has to be us?

[Chroma Starlight]

Just now, Luna Bliss said:

Why wouldn't it be okay for, say, dolphins to ascend toward spirituality in millions of years?  What's so special about us humans that it has to be us?

I'm confused. Why do you speak of dolphins as if they aren't already ascended beings? As far as I know, they never descended in the first place. 

[Luna Bliss]

1 minute ago, Chroma Starlight said:

2 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

Why wouldn't it be okay for, say, dolphins to ascend toward spirituality in millions of years?  What's so special about us humans that it has to be us?

I'm confused. Why do you speak of dolphins as if they aren't already ascended beings? As far as I know, they never descended in the first place. 

So your theory is that it's only 'man' who descended?  And perhaps because 'man' became so detached from nature?  Or?

[Chroma Starlight]

Just now, Luna Bliss said:

So your theory is that it's only 'man' who descended?  And perhaps because 'man' became so detached from nature?  Or?

Well now, that is an interesting idea that seems well worthy of contemplation, now that you mention it.

[Luna Bliss]

3 hours ago, Chroma Starlight said:

I think humanity is about the fusion of heaven and Earth, and what that means in practical terms is that human beings are by very definition divine creatures, and that means something direct and spiritual rather than something of an institution or quantity. That's why it's universal and not limited to any one form or scale of life.

Why are you proposing that humanity is about the fusion of heaven and Earth?

[Chroma Starlight]

9 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

Why are you proposing that humanity is about the fusion of heaven and Earth?

Because that's what the symbols say.

⊕
Earth
ˇ
(fusion)
 

Venus and Mars may be woman and man, but Mercury is human (lu mah an).

 

Edited June 20, 2021 by Chroma Starlight