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Gambling or not gambling ?


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Hello folks, 

LL wagering policy sates that :

Quote

It is a violation of this policy to wager in games in the Second Life® environment operated on Linden Lab servers if such games:

  1. Rely on chance or random number generation to determine a winner,
    OR
  2. Rely on the outcome of real-life organized sporting events,

AND provide a payout in

  1. Linden Dollars (L$)
    OR
  2. Any real-world currency or thing of value.

 

Okay then why are these Casinos full of "loto roto" "lucky devil" etc allowed ?

I just tried playing those and it DOES rely on random generation and DOES provide payment in L$...

Sorry if it's been answered already, it a honest question here cause I really don't understand what is, and is not allowed now in SL.

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"Skill games" may involve a significant amount of randomness, but so long as there is a sufficient element of skill and such games are hosted on special skill gaming regions, then it's not gambling. Gambling is forbidden.

http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Linden_Lab_Official:Second_Life_Skill_Gaming_FAQ

The list of approved skill games includes both the games you mention

http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Linden_Lab_Official:Second_Life_Skill_Gaming_Approved_Participants

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9 minutes ago, Laurence Ghiardie said:

Thank you very much for that answer Coffee...

Well... I guess clicking numbers on a grid is considered "skill" then :P

Thanks

While the games you mention and those also found at skill game regions are essentially gambling and clicking on any old numbers or whatever may result in a win, they do actually require skill or rather knowing how to play to win with the game you are dealt. Most skill game regions have free play games you can use to learn how to play various games and get the odd L$ or two when you win

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13 hours ago, Laurence Ghiardie said:

Okay then why are these Casinos full of "loto roto" "lucky devil" etc allowed ?

I just tried playing those and it DOES rely on random generation and DOES provide payment in L$...

Sorry if it's been answered already, it a honest question here cause I really don't understand what is, and is not allowed now in SL.

games like those you mention are designed on the same principle as noughts and crosses (tic-tac-toe)

when the scripted player engine knows all the possible moves then every game will end in a draw - no winner and no loser. And when the rule is that you only get money when you win then you can only 'win - get money' when the scripted player engine lets you win

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3 hours ago, Mollymews said:

games like those you mention are designed on the same principle as noughts and crosses (tic-tac-toe)

when the scripted player engine knows all the possible moves then every game will end in a draw - no winner and no loser. And when the rule is that you only get money when you win then you can only 'win - get money' when the scripted player engine lets you win

This is technically true aside from the grid being 5x5 or larger, that brings some skill into play. You aren't "playing" against the script, you are basically playing bingo. 

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22 hours ago, Laurence Ghiardie said:

Hello folks, 

LL wagering policy sates that :

 

Okay then why are these Casinos full of "loto roto" "lucky devil" etc allowed ?

I just tried playing those and it DOES rely on random generation and DOES provide payment in L$...

Sorry if it's been answered already, it a honest question here cause I really don't understand what is, and is not allowed now in SL.

Because the owners of those regions have pulled some sad, broken lawyer off a barstool  retained a lawyer and had them write an legal affidavit saying that the activities on those regions aren't technically gambling due to the "skill level" required. and have filed that affidavit with Linden Lab.

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4 hours ago, BiliEyelash said:

If there is no gambling then why are residents of particular states banned from going to certian regions?

some US States also ban wagering on games of skill. The SL skill gaming regions fall within these laws, and Linden make a good faith effort to identify residents from those states and block them from teleporting to SL skill gaming regions. Good faith as prescribed by those RL laws

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On 5/6/2021 at 2:18 AM, Mollymews said:

some US States also ban wagering on games of skill. The SL skill gaming regions fall within these laws, and Linden make a good faith effort to identify residents from those states and block them from teleporting to SL skill gaming regions. Good faith as prescribed by those RL laws

That's fairly hard to believe. Do you have a link or anything that would reference this?  

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Why can’t I access a Skill Gaming Region?

There are a number of reasons you may not be able to access a Skill Gaming Region. See the following to see if you meet all the requirements:

 

Authorized participants

Only users that meet the criteria for Skill Gaming are permitted to access Skill Gaming Regions and participate in Skill Gaming in Second Life. Participation is limited to residents who meet the following criteria:

Have current billing information on file

Have an active payment method on file

Are at least 19 years of age

Do not reside in a prohibited state listed below

Are not connecting from a prohibited state

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1 hour ago, Coffee Pancake said:

The viewer has as much idea of it's physical location as it does the content of a nearby fridge.

 

Wait wait wait, there is nothing in the LL viewer code to let them know where you are accessing SL from?!?! So, if you are in Arizona and live in  Mass you can go into a Skill gami8ng sim even though Arizona has made it illegal to do so? That seems like a law suit waiting to happen. 

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2 hours ago, Sam1 Bellisserian said:

That's fairly hard to believe. Do you have a link or anything that would reference this?  

 

operators of betting on games of skill  fall under the sports wagering laws.  Most US States require the betting operator  to obtain a license to operate from the State Gaming Authority. And some fewer States specifically exclude sports betting

in the early days of online poker rooms, some operators contested in court that poker was a game of skill, not a game of chance like roulette for example. The State legislatures responded to this by legislating the operation of wagering - created a State Gaming Authority

Linden have a list of US States that they block for this reason:

http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Linden_Lab_Official:Second_Life_Skill_Gaming_FAQ#Prohibited_states_and_countries

Prohibited states and countries

Residents of the following states and countries may not participate in Skill Gaming in Second Life:

  • Arizona
  • Arkansas
  • Delaware
  • Florida
  • Kentucky
  • Louisiana
  • Maryland
  • Nevada
  • South Carolina
  • South Dakota
  • Tennessee

in these states it is illegal to place bets on sports - game of skill - (including betting on ourselves) with a unlicensed bookie

Edited by Mollymews
gos
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44 minutes ago, Mollymews said:

 

operators of betting on games of skill  fall under the sports wagering laws.  Most US States require the betting operator  to obtain a license to operate from the State Gaming Authority. And some fewer States specifically exclude sports betting

in the early days of online poker rooms, some operators contested in court that poker was a game of skill, not a game of chance like roulette for example. The State legislatures responded to this by legislating the operation of wagering - created a State Gaming Authority

Linden have a list of US States that they block for this reason:

http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Linden_Lab_Official:Second_Life_Skill_Gaming_FAQ#Prohibited_states_and_countries

Prohibited states and countries

Residents of the following states and countries may not participate in Skill Gaming in Second Life:

  • Arizona
  • Arkansas
  • Delaware
  • Florida
  • Kentucky
  • Louisiana
  • Maryland
  • Nevada
  • South Carolina
  • South Dakota
  • Tennessee

in these states it is illegal to place bets on sports - game of skill - (including betting on ourselves) with a unlicensed bookie

Pretty easy to get around using a VPN. AND before anyone says anything I'm just pointing it out. I realize it's probably against the TOS. :)

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Just now, Sam1 Bellisserian said:

Pretty easy to get around using a VPN. AND before anyone says anything I'm just pointing it out. I realize it's probably against the TOS. :)

yes. All Linden (same as any other online business ) can do is make a good faith effort to be compliant with the laws

 

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22 minutes ago, BiliEyelash said:

Note that at least two of these states, Florida and Nevada, have legalized gambling of some sort. So rather than some moral objection to gambling, it is more of a "we won't let you do it unless we get some tax revenue"

pretty much yes.  The whole moral opposition to gambling from the legislators went out the window when they saw how much money other states were raking in from their state lotteries

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27 minutes ago, Sam1 Bellisserian said:

Pretty easy to get around using a VPN. AND before anyone says anything I'm just pointing it out. I realize it's probably against the TOS. :)

How would that change the billing address on your payment info on file?

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4 hours ago, Drake1 Nightfire said:

Wait wait wait, there is nothing in the LL viewer code to let them know where you are accessing SL from?!?! So, if you are in Arizona and live in  Mass you can go into a Skill gami8ng sim even though Arizona has made it illegal to do so? That seems like a law suit waiting to happen. 

Why would that code need to be in the viewer ? Rudimentary geolocation based on IP address can easily be done server side .. and LL do LOVE server side.

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4 hours ago, Rowan Amore said:

How would that change the billing address on your payment info on file?

So it's based on your billing address? Simple...change your payment source to a different billing address.  My daughter lives in CA. If I used her CC then it would show CA as my place of residence.  What about the people that don't have a billing address at all? You don't need a CC or billing information to have a SL account as far as I can remember.

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