Laurence Ghiardie Posted May 2, 2021 Share Posted May 2, 2021 Hello folks, LL wagering policy sates that : Quote It is a violation of this policy to wager in games in the Second Life® environment operated on Linden Lab servers if such games: Rely on chance or random number generation to determine a winner, OR Rely on the outcome of real-life organized sporting events, AND provide a payout in Linden Dollars (L$) OR Any real-world currency or thing of value. Okay then why are these Casinos full of "loto roto" "lucky devil" etc allowed ? I just tried playing those and it DOES rely on random generation and DOES provide payment in L$... Sorry if it's been answered already, it a honest question here cause I really don't understand what is, and is not allowed now in SL. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coffee Pancake Posted May 2, 2021 Share Posted May 2, 2021 "Skill games" may involve a significant amount of randomness, but so long as there is a sufficient element of skill and such games are hosted on special skill gaming regions, then it's not gambling. Gambling is forbidden. http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Linden_Lab_Official:Second_Life_Skill_Gaming_FAQ The list of approved skill games includes both the games you mention http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Linden_Lab_Official:Second_Life_Skill_Gaming_Approved_Participants 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laurence Ghiardie Posted May 2, 2021 Author Share Posted May 2, 2021 Thank you very much for that answer Coffee... Quote as there is a sufficient element of skill Well... I guess clicking numbers on a grid is considered "skill" then Thanks 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Claireschen Hesten Posted May 2, 2021 Share Posted May 2, 2021 9 minutes ago, Laurence Ghiardie said: Thank you very much for that answer Coffee... Well... I guess clicking numbers on a grid is considered "skill" then Thanks While the games you mention and those also found at skill game regions are essentially gambling and clicking on any old numbers or whatever may result in a win, they do actually require skill or rather knowing how to play to win with the game you are dealt. Most skill game regions have free play games you can use to learn how to play various games and get the odd L$ or two when you win Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mollymews Posted May 3, 2021 Share Posted May 3, 2021 13 hours ago, Laurence Ghiardie said: Okay then why are these Casinos full of "loto roto" "lucky devil" etc allowed ? I just tried playing those and it DOES rely on random generation and DOES provide payment in L$... Sorry if it's been answered already, it a honest question here cause I really don't understand what is, and is not allowed now in SL. games like those you mention are designed on the same principle as noughts and crosses (tic-tac-toe) when the scripted player engine knows all the possible moves then every game will end in a draw - no winner and no loser. And when the rule is that you only get money when you win then you can only 'win - get money' when the scripted player engine lets you win Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drake1 Nightfire Posted May 3, 2021 Share Posted May 3, 2021 3 hours ago, Mollymews said: games like those you mention are designed on the same principle as noughts and crosses (tic-tac-toe) when the scripted player engine knows all the possible moves then every game will end in a draw - no winner and no loser. And when the rule is that you only get money when you win then you can only 'win - get money' when the scripted player engine lets you win This is technically true aside from the grid being 5x5 or larger, that brings some skill into play. You aren't "playing" against the script, you are basically playing bingo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Theresa Tennyson Posted May 3, 2021 Share Posted May 3, 2021 22 hours ago, Laurence Ghiardie said: Hello folks, LL wagering policy sates that : Okay then why are these Casinos full of "loto roto" "lucky devil" etc allowed ? I just tried playing those and it DOES rely on random generation and DOES provide payment in L$... Sorry if it's been answered already, it a honest question here cause I really don't understand what is, and is not allowed now in SL. Because the owners of those regions have pulled some sad, broken lawyer off a barstool retained a lawyer and had them write an legal affidavit saying that the activities on those regions aren't technically gambling due to the "skill level" required. and have filed that affidavit with Linden Lab. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BiliEyelash Posted May 6, 2021 Share Posted May 6, 2021 If there is no gambling then why are residents of particular states banned from going to certian regions? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kathlen Onyx Posted May 6, 2021 Share Posted May 6, 2021 3 minutes ago, BiliEyelash said: If there is no gambling then why are residents of particular states banned from going to certian regions? How do a region know if you are from a particular state? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mollymews Posted May 6, 2021 Share Posted May 6, 2021 4 hours ago, BiliEyelash said: If there is no gambling then why are residents of particular states banned from going to certian regions? some US States also ban wagering on games of skill. The SL skill gaming regions fall within these laws, and Linden make a good faith effort to identify residents from those states and block them from teleporting to SL skill gaming regions. Good faith as prescribed by those RL laws Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drake1 Nightfire Posted May 6, 2021 Share Posted May 6, 2021 4 hours ago, Sam1 Bellisserian said: How do a region know if you are from a particular state? Fairly sure the viewer knows where you are in the world. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chassie Rowley Posted May 6, 2021 Share Posted May 6, 2021 5 hours ago, Sam1 Bellisserian said: How do a region know if you are from a particular state? 55 minutes ago, Drake1 Nightfire said: Fairly sure the viewer knows where you are in the world. IP address Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coffee Pancake Posted May 7, 2021 Share Posted May 7, 2021 On 5/6/2021 at 3:21 AM, Drake1 Nightfire said: Fairly sure the viewer knows where you are in the world. The viewer has as much idea of it's physical location as it does the content of a nearby fridge. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kathlen Onyx Posted May 7, 2021 Share Posted May 7, 2021 On 5/6/2021 at 2:18 AM, Mollymews said: some US States also ban wagering on games of skill. The SL skill gaming regions fall within these laws, and Linden make a good faith effort to identify residents from those states and block them from teleporting to SL skill gaming regions. Good faith as prescribed by those RL laws That's fairly hard to believe. Do you have a link or anything that would reference this? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rowan Amore Posted May 7, 2021 Share Posted May 7, 2021 You have to have billing info on file which generally includes your address. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rowan Amore Posted May 7, 2021 Share Posted May 7, 2021 Why can’t I access a Skill Gaming Region? There are a number of reasons you may not be able to access a Skill Gaming Region. See the following to see if you meet all the requirements: Authorized participants Only users that meet the criteria for Skill Gaming are permitted to access Skill Gaming Regions and participate in Skill Gaming in Second Life. Participation is limited to residents who meet the following criteria: Have current billing information on file Have an active payment method on file Are at least 19 years of age Do not reside in a prohibited state listed below Are not connecting from a prohibited state Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drake1 Nightfire Posted May 7, 2021 Share Posted May 7, 2021 1 hour ago, Coffee Pancake said: The viewer has as much idea of it's physical location as it does the content of a nearby fridge. Wait wait wait, there is nothing in the LL viewer code to let them know where you are accessing SL from?!?! So, if you are in Arizona and live in Mass you can go into a Skill gami8ng sim even though Arizona has made it illegal to do so? That seems like a law suit waiting to happen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mollymews Posted May 7, 2021 Share Posted May 7, 2021 (edited) 2 hours ago, Sam1 Bellisserian said: That's fairly hard to believe. Do you have a link or anything that would reference this? operators of betting on games of skill fall under the sports wagering laws. Most US States require the betting operator to obtain a license to operate from the State Gaming Authority. And some fewer States specifically exclude sports betting in the early days of online poker rooms, some operators contested in court that poker was a game of skill, not a game of chance like roulette for example. The State legislatures responded to this by legislating the operation of wagering - created a State Gaming Authority Linden have a list of US States that they block for this reason: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Linden_Lab_Official:Second_Life_Skill_Gaming_FAQ#Prohibited_states_and_countries Prohibited states and countries Residents of the following states and countries may not participate in Skill Gaming in Second Life: Arizona Arkansas Delaware Florida Kentucky Louisiana Maryland Nevada South Carolina South Dakota Tennessee in these states it is illegal to place bets on sports - game of skill - (including betting on ourselves) with a unlicensed bookie Edited May 7, 2021 by Mollymews gos Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BiliEyelash Posted May 7, 2021 Share Posted May 7, 2021 Note that at least two of these states, Florida and Nevada, have legalized gambling of some sort. So rather than some moral objection to gambling, it is more of a "we won't let you do it unless we get some tax revenue" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kathlen Onyx Posted May 7, 2021 Share Posted May 7, 2021 44 minutes ago, Mollymews said: operators of betting on games of skill fall under the sports wagering laws. Most US States require the betting operator to obtain a license to operate from the State Gaming Authority. And some fewer States specifically exclude sports betting in the early days of online poker rooms, some operators contested in court that poker was a game of skill, not a game of chance like roulette for example. The State legislatures responded to this by legislating the operation of wagering - created a State Gaming Authority Linden have a list of US States that they block for this reason: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Linden_Lab_Official:Second_Life_Skill_Gaming_FAQ#Prohibited_states_and_countries Prohibited states and countries Residents of the following states and countries may not participate in Skill Gaming in Second Life: Arizona Arkansas Delaware Florida Kentucky Louisiana Maryland Nevada South Carolina South Dakota Tennessee in these states it is illegal to place bets on sports - game of skill - (including betting on ourselves) with a unlicensed bookie Pretty easy to get around using a VPN. AND before anyone says anything I'm just pointing it out. I realize it's probably against the TOS. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mollymews Posted May 7, 2021 Share Posted May 7, 2021 Just now, Sam1 Bellisserian said: Pretty easy to get around using a VPN. AND before anyone says anything I'm just pointing it out. I realize it's probably against the TOS. yes. All Linden (same as any other online business ) can do is make a good faith effort to be compliant with the laws Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mollymews Posted May 7, 2021 Share Posted May 7, 2021 22 minutes ago, BiliEyelash said: Note that at least two of these states, Florida and Nevada, have legalized gambling of some sort. So rather than some moral objection to gambling, it is more of a "we won't let you do it unless we get some tax revenue" pretty much yes. The whole moral opposition to gambling from the legislators went out the window when they saw how much money other states were raking in from their state lotteries 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rowan Amore Posted May 8, 2021 Share Posted May 8, 2021 27 minutes ago, Sam1 Bellisserian said: Pretty easy to get around using a VPN. AND before anyone says anything I'm just pointing it out. I realize it's probably against the TOS. How would that change the billing address on your payment info on file? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coffee Pancake Posted May 8, 2021 Share Posted May 8, 2021 4 hours ago, Drake1 Nightfire said: Wait wait wait, there is nothing in the LL viewer code to let them know where you are accessing SL from?!?! So, if you are in Arizona and live in Mass you can go into a Skill gami8ng sim even though Arizona has made it illegal to do so? That seems like a law suit waiting to happen. Why would that code need to be in the viewer ? Rudimentary geolocation based on IP address can easily be done server side .. and LL do LOVE server side. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kathlen Onyx Posted May 8, 2021 Share Posted May 8, 2021 4 hours ago, Rowan Amore said: How would that change the billing address on your payment info on file? So it's based on your billing address? Simple...change your payment source to a different billing address. My daughter lives in CA. If I used her CC then it would show CA as my place of residence. What about the people that don't have a billing address at all? You don't need a CC or billing information to have a SL account as far as I can remember. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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