LittleMe Jewell Posted March 25, 2020 Share Posted March 25, 2020 The COVID Act Now movement was initially pushing hard for a full Wuhan style lockdown. That lockdown took 2 flavors, depending on the exact location: 1) A single family member could leave the home every 2 days to buy necessary supplies. This was monitored to prevent people from going out more than allowed. 2) Nobody allowed outside for any reason at all. Food & other supplies had to be ordered in, though in some cases it was difficult to get items delivered. Later, the police started going door to door and forcing the ill into full isolation. A news article reported a disabled boy died after several days without food because his father and brother were put in full quarantine. The above is why so many in the US freak out over the words 'lockdown'. Logic has little to do with this. Emotions are all over the place with people right now. My understanding is that the COVID Act Now movement has backed off a bit and now is simply pushing for the 'Shelter in Place' model - where people are allowed to go out for groceries, medicines, and other things considered to be necessary. Their website does still show the Wuhan style lockdown as a possible scenario. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pamela Galli Posted March 25, 2020 Author Share Posted March 25, 2020 On 3/21/2020 at 1:16 PM, Solar Legion said: Do you have three to eight weeks of food, medication and other supplies as well as the storage space for it? If you do then whoopdie doo! You're lucky. Not everyone can do so, be it for financial reasons, logistic reasons or both. For me? Even pooling together the resources available between myself and the others I live with, we'd be lucky to be able to amass the supplies we'd need - which does include medication. As far as storage goes? We'd have to take up floor space in the apartment itself. The store room in the basement is prone to flooding when it rains and the 'common area' spaces have been taken up by things belonging to our upstairs neighbors. This includes a good chunk of the garage space. If anyone is confused: This building is a two story house that was converted into two identical two bedroom apartments. In addition to the entry area (thankfully not cluttered up) the shared spaces include the attached garage (supposed to be split between the apartments) and the main basement area (where there are hookups for a washer and dryer per unit as well as two wash basins and the HVAC units). Most of that basement space has been taken up by the upstairs neighbors' belongings - no idea what half of it is and I frankly do not care. It is bad enough that even if we had our own washer and dryer (we don't, they do) we'd not be able to use them. As it is, we'd have to move their stuff to install them. Heaven forbid we try to talk to them ... The last time was a disaster and a half and made it quite clear we were dealing with people who believe they own the bloody building. TL:DR - The petition can rot. What’s all this about storage space? Are you attempting to convince people that the report is about convincing people that they need to never leave their homes? That they must store weeks of supplies or prepare to die? 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Solar Legion Posted March 25, 2020 Share Posted March 25, 2020 5 minutes ago, LittleMe Jewell said: The COVID Act Now movement was initially pushing hard for a full Wuhan style lockdown. That lockdown took 2 flavors, depending on the exact location: 1) A single family member could leave the home every 2 days to buy necessary supplies. This was monitored to prevent people from going out more than allowed. 2) Nobody allowed outside for any reason at all. Food & other supplies had to be ordered in, though in some cases it was difficult to get items delivered. Later, the police started going door to door and forcing the ill into full isolation. A news article reported a disabled boy died after several days without food because his father and brother were put in full quarantine. The above is why so many in the US freak out over the words 'lockdown'. Logic has little to do with this. Emotions are all over the place with people right now. My understanding is that the COVID Act Now movement has backed off a bit and now is simply pushing for the 'Shelter in Place' model - where people are allowed to go out for groceries, medicines, and other things considered to be necessary. Their website does still show the Wuhan style lockdown as a possible scenario. Personally? You're only partially correct in both how the suggestion for a lockdown is being taken and the suggestion that emotion more than logic is what is at play. Wuhan went from a two phase model (partial lockdown in some areas, full in others) to a total lockdown. The response there is the very definition of a lockdown. What we're seeing here ... simply isn't. What has been suggested .... simply isn't and should have been presented as what it actually is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Solar Legion Posted March 25, 2020 Share Posted March 25, 2020 2 minutes ago, Pamela Galli said: What’s all this about storage space? Are you attempting to convince people that the report is about convincing people that they need to never leave their homes? That they must store weeks of supplies or prepare to die? Nope. Once again - stop misrepresenting me. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Selene Gregoire Posted March 25, 2020 Share Posted March 25, 2020 53 minutes ago, Pamela Galli said: That’s not what you said Selene. Not at all. We have enough people at the highest levels make stuff up, giving people reasons not to comply, we don’t need more. Don't tell me what I said. I know what I said and I know what I meant. Every time I have said anything about it I've been saying they can not stop us from going to the grocery store because people have to eat. Full stop. What I worry about is @$$trumpet declaring martial law. If that happens, he and the repugs will do whatever they damn well please up to and including preventing people from getting food. Yes, they are that cruel and heartless. That is what worries me. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LittleMe Jewell Posted March 25, 2020 Share Posted March 25, 2020 4 minutes ago, Selene Gregoire said: What I worry about is @$$trumpet declaring martial law. If that happens, he and the repugs will do whatever they damn well please up to and including preventing people from getting food. Yes, they are that cruel and heartless. The Republicans probably know better than anyone else that they could never get away with a marital law declaration as there are just way too many people with guns in this country -- specifically in case a revolt against the government becomes necessary. And not even the a-hole at the top or anyone else would truly try to keep people from getting food. That is a completely irrational fear. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pamela Galli Posted March 25, 2020 Author Share Posted March 25, 2020 Well it’s already more or less moot — clearly we are not going to do anything at the federal level as the report suggests, plus certain states or cities or counties have already moved into Suppression mode. No one anywhere in the US has suggested Wuhan levels of suppression are an option. The whole report is about the value of buying time to save lives, but to be effective we can’t have states behaving like those who choose the option of doing almost nothing at all. Like, say, Florida, which is gearing up to be a bloodbath. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LittleMe Jewell Posted March 25, 2020 Share Posted March 25, 2020 Apparently there is now another option - a Stay at Home order, which is what most of the Denver metro area has now issued. One official stressed that this is a 'Stay at Home' order, not a Shelter in Place, though for the life of me I still can't figure out the difference yet. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Solar Legion Posted March 25, 2020 Share Posted March 25, 2020 (edited) 5 minutes ago, LittleMe Jewell said: Apparently there is now another option - a Stay at Home order, which is what most of the Denver metro area has now issued. One official stressed that this is a 'Stay at Home' order, not a Shelter in Place, though for the life of me I still can't figure out the difference yet. Shelter in Place is a fair bit more restrictive with tighter definitions concerning Essential Services/Businesses. Or what Luna below has stated - depends on interpretation/execution I suppose. Edited March 25, 2020 by Solar Legion Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luna Bliss Posted March 25, 2020 Share Posted March 25, 2020 (edited) 7 minutes ago, LittleMe Jewell said: Apparently there is now another option - a Stay at Home order, which is what most of the Denver metro area has now issued. One official stressed that this is a 'Stay at Home' order, not a Shelter in Place, though for the life of me I still can't figure out the difference yet. Apparently, keeping abreast of what's been going on in San Francisco via my daughter, the Shelter In Place is more of a request whereas the Stay At Home declaration can be enforced by law. * I heard that on their news channel too. * With both, however, one can go out for essential needs. Edited March 25, 2020 by Luna Bliss 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Selene Gregoire Posted March 25, 2020 Share Posted March 25, 2020 15 minutes ago, LittleMe Jewell said: The Republicans probably know better than anyone else that they could never get away with a marital law declaration as there are just way too many people with guns in this country -- specifically in case a revolt against the government becomes necessary. And not even the a-hole at the top or anyone else would truly try to keep people from getting food. That is a completely irrational fear. Martial law has been declared in the US by the federal government several times. While nationwide martial law has never been declared, there is always a first time. Repugs have only themselves to blame for my extremely low opinion of them. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martial_law_in_the_United_States Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pamela Galli Posted March 25, 2020 Author Share Posted March 25, 2020 54 minutes ago, Solar Legion said: Nope. Once again - stop misrepresenting me. I just quoted your entire initial post. Anyone can see what you wrote. About storage space. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luna Bliss Posted March 25, 2020 Share Posted March 25, 2020 https://www.wtsp.com/article/news/health/coronavirus/what-is-shelter-in-place-stay-at-home-safer-at-home/67-feb990ee-dc3f-439c-acff-dee258394126 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LittleMe Jewell Posted March 25, 2020 Share Posted March 25, 2020 8 minutes ago, Selene Gregoire said: Martial law has been declared in the US by the federal government several times. While nationwide martial law has never been declared, there is always a first time. Repugs have only themselves to blame for my extremely low opinion of them. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martial_law_in_the_United_States You were implying Trump would declare a national martial law, which has not been done since 1863. While HR-5122, passed in 2007 authorizes the President to declare martial law and other stuff, it still hasn't actually been declared. While it has been done at the state level a few times in our history, in most cases it was in response to some sort of turmoil and unrest already going on out in the streets -- strikes, riots, etc... Given the statistics around guns and ammo in this country, it would take far more than this current virus to get anybody to be stupid enough to attempt to truly declare and enforce a national marital law. It is totally possible that some Governor might be dumb enough to try implementing something close to that at the state level, but I can't even truly envision that. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Solar Legion Posted March 25, 2020 Share Posted March 25, 2020 And anyone can understand that such was not the entire issue by actually reading my responses and doing just a little thinking. They can also easily understand by noting that I went into detail concerning the living situation while mentioning a fair bit more that did not need to have much detail inserted. You're rather obviously not going to stop with your misrepresentations so again, have fun trying to "argue" with the wind. I'm sure it'll be a much better partner for your song and dance. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Selene Gregoire Posted March 25, 2020 Share Posted March 25, 2020 1 minute ago, LittleMe Jewell said: You were implying Trump would declare a national martial law, which has not been done since 1863. While HR-5122, passed in 2007 authorizes the President to declare martial law and other stuff, it still hasn't actually been declared. While it has been done at the state level a few times in our history, in most cases it was in response to some sort of turmoil and unrest already going on out in the streets -- strikes, riots, etc... Given the statistics around guns and ammo in this country, it would take far more than this current virus to get anybody to be stupid enough to attempt to truly declare and enforce a national marital law. It is totally possible that some Governor might be dumb enough to try implementing something close to that at the state level, but I can't even truly envision that. You go right ahead and put all your eggs in that basket. I refuse. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LittleMe Jewell Posted March 25, 2020 Share Posted March 25, 2020 (edited) 13 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said: https://www.wtsp.com/article/news/health/coronavirus/what-is-shelter-in-place-stay-at-home-safer-at-home/67-feb990ee-dc3f-439c-acff-dee258394126 I read the article and chuckled. They are different, sort of, maybe. And the ones named the same might also be different from each other. Nothing like confusing the masses. ETA: I've decided that this quote is the most likely reason for most of the Stay at Home / Safer at Home designations: "On Friday, New York Gov. Andrew Cuomo said the term "shelter-in-place" can invoke panic." Edited March 25, 2020 by LittleMe Jewell 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luna Bliss Posted March 25, 2020 Share Posted March 25, 2020 When fascism arrives in America I think it will be, as that old quote says, wrapped in a flag and bearing a cross... a more deceptive means of power and control. Such a forceful act as martial law, especially coming from the overt government control they frequently downplay, would not seem likely from Trump. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Love Zhaoying Posted March 25, 2020 Share Posted March 25, 2020 43 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said: When fascism arrives in America I think it will be, as that old quote says, wrapped in a flag and bearing a cross... a more deceptive means of power and control. Such a forceful act as martial law, especially coming from the overt government control they frequently downplay, would not seem likely from Trump. You missed its arrival? 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Selene Gregoire Posted March 25, 2020 Share Posted March 25, 2020 https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2019/01/presidential-emergency-powers/576418/ 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LittleMe Jewell Posted March 25, 2020 Share Posted March 25, 2020 There are a lot of things that could happen. I have a lot more faith in Americans overall to not allow some things to happen. I'm going to spend my worrying time on issues that are much more likely to occur. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luna Bliss Posted March 26, 2020 Share Posted March 26, 2020 18 hours ago, Love Zhaoying said: 18 hours ago, Luna Bliss said: When fascism arrives in America I think it will be, as that old quote says, wrapped in a flag and bearing a cross... a more deceptive means of power and control. Such a forceful act as martial law, especially coming from the overt government control they frequently downplay, would not seem likely from Trump. You missed its arrival? We still have governmental checks and balances that are preventing fascism, but I'm concerned these could be removed should Trump get a second term. When you claim we have total fascism now it can be seen as hyperbolic to some, and they can more easily dismiss the notion entirely without entertaining the erosion in democracy taking place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bitsy Buccaneer Posted March 26, 2020 Share Posted March 26, 2020 Is the term "lockdown" really that terrifying? We've been seeing it in English-language reports on the situation across Europe so when it was finally announced for the UK, it was very much welcomed. We can get food (one trip per day), we can get medicine, we can get one bit of outdoor exercise. We're not supposed to make social calls or gather. It's more emotionally difficult than it is physically difficult. Grocery stores have been hiring and reworking their websites to cope with demand for deliveries. Time is doing weird things so these improvements feel slow in coming, but they haven't really been. Given my disabilities, it's been terrifying at times. But we're getting through. Some food items are hard to get and that poses challenges. This has hit me particularly hard. I'm still managing. Living under lockdown requires adjustment and inner strength. But it's worth it because it saves lives. It reduces the strain on the health services, so fewer people will die, fewer nurses, doctors and paramedics will die. All that's being asked is that we make this adjustment for the time being. If your state or the entire U.S. goes into lockdown, welcome it. It will save lives. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Selene Gregoire Posted March 26, 2020 Share Posted March 26, 2020 (edited) 45 minutes ago, Bitsy Buccaneer said: Is the term "lockdown" really that terrifying? We've been seeing it in English-language reports on the situation across Europe so when it was finally announced for the UK, it was very much welcomed. We can get food (one trip per day), we can get medicine, we can get one bit of outdoor exercise. We're not supposed to make social calls or gather. It's more emotionally difficult than it is physically difficult. Grocery stores have been hiring and reworking their websites to cope with demand for deliveries. Time is doing weird things so these improvements feel slow in coming, but they haven't really been. Given my disabilities, it's been terrifying at times. But we're getting through. Some food items are hard to get and that poses challenges. This has hit me particularly hard. I'm still managing. Living under lockdown requires adjustment and inner strength. But it's worth it because it saves lives. It reduces the strain on the health services, so fewer people will die, fewer nurses, doctors and paramedics will die. All that's being asked is that we make this adjustment for the time being. If your state or the entire U.S. goes into lockdown, welcome it. It will save lives. lock·down /ˈläkdoun/ Learn to pronounce noun NORTH AMERICAN the confining of prisoners to their cells, typically after an escape or to regain control during a riot. a state of isolation or restricted access instituted as a security measure. "the university is on lockdown and nobody has been able to leave" Lockdown is a punishment. Edited March 26, 2020 by Selene Gregoire 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beth Macbain Posted March 26, 2020 Share Posted March 26, 2020 Lockdown sounds militarized and is just going to make people paranoid. Shelter in Place sounds like there has been a terrible chemical spill or something... it's better than lockdown but it's still icky. I'm all for calling it Stay At Home You Effing Idiot So We Can Kill This Damn Virus And Get Our Lives Back To Normal And If You Don't We're Going To Something Really Unpleasant". Or SAHYEISWCKTDVAGOLBTNAIYDWGTSRU for short. It's pronounced just like it sounds. 2 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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