Future of the metaverse, and all that

[Prokofy Neva]

12 minutes ago, Profaitchikenz Haiku said:

That's a shame, I had invented a whole backstory of how people moved there, tried to eke out  subsistence from the sea, got gobbled up by Krakens or drifted away to the big city in search of fame and fortune, leaving lots of little bits of land behind that started to band together for protection.

But then, I may be over-romanticising ...

Well, it was once all one sim, back in the days when the Lindens sold Mainland whole sims on an auction that was different than the one today. 

So I forget which land baron got it from the auction, but it has the Linden bridge and the Linden protected water channel but the island isn't an island as it has non-Linden land between it and the coast.

When I got it there are like 3-4 big parcels on the sim and I got some of them and then another person who has the church. That parcel was always one big parcel as it made no sense to chop it up as you would never rent out the non-island part of it then. On the other side it is more choppable.

But the Krakens part -- yes, that did happen. Originally the Lindens had this fantasy that they would leave their trees on the land, and they wouldn't count, their prims would be anchored in water or road areas of theirs. They had this vision of having a pristine, unblighted "back to Nature" continent, and therefore put no telehubs in it, and left all these trees. Then that grew to be a burden for them and they retired it. I kept my "old growth" Linden trees as long as I could but tenants didn't want the trees. The other funny thing is the rocks on the waterfall were up in the air, unsupported, through some glitch. I was all for leaving them that way, like an Easter Egg, or like a "magnetic site" where cars drive upwards downhill or something. But then someone reported it and it was removed.

One day when I logged on the sea had covered two sims. There was a huge crack in the earth. That was the Kraken -- you are right about that. Everything was sunk under water, people fled in panic, but gradually the sea ebbed and people crept out of hiding...

[Profaitchikenz Haiku]

4 hours ago, Prokofy Neva said:

I was all for leaving them that way, like an Easter Egg, or like a "magnetic site" where cars drive upwards downhill or something.

That's just triggered a memory of when I rode a bicycle around Scandinavia, and in Norway I was riding along beside a river in the direction it was flowing, but I had the most vivid sensation of cycling uphill. I stopped twice to try and reassure myself we were all going downhill and took photos, but I couldn't shake off that feeling that I and the water were both steadily climbing. The photos didn't support the sensation, and I've never again experienced it, but I have heard about the instances you've mentioned.

[Profaitchikenz Haiku]

Some thoughts:

The Metaverse is a term still up for grabs, there's no defined roadmap, no single promised land, it's open for competing visionaries to try and gather the hordes beneath their banners and march hopefully towards it. One thing is certain though, nobody is expecting/wanting it to be a game. Just what they might be expecting it to be is the issue here. The one thing everybody seems to be in agreement with is, it's in computers. And that seems to lead to comparing the metaverse with computer games.

By default most people are thinking about computer games because right from the time table-sized computers first popped up in the home, that's what you did: roamed mazes, rescued endangered species like dragons from ravenous maidens, bombed city buildings to create a safe landing strip for your aircraft, tried to talk women into taking their clothes off...

Games usually have targets, and their content and repertoire is limited. Once you've got to the top level, what do you do? Go round again? Or buy another game with new content and targets? Usually the latter.

SL is not a game, for the very obvious reasons that a) it doesn't have targets, b) the content and hence reportoire is unlimited, c) see a and b.

Looking at what are some of the many activities available in SL, you have role-play, re-enactment, land management, collaborative building projects, and sex, of course (which isn't a game, or have I been doing it wrong all these years?)

In that respect, SL is already the launch pad for "A" metaverse (not "THE" metaverse because that's still undecided).

Of the visions that have been held up for us as to what A metaverse should be like, I have mentioned Stephenson's Snow Crash depiction, but I have to say, I find that less appealing than the ideas he sketched out in Diamond Age, but that's because Snow Crash was all about hanging out looking cool, sword-fighting, and racing motorbikes across an infinite desert. Yawn. (um, did I just describe what 90% of SLitizens get up to? Oops).

Diamond Age offered a vision of Ractives (sounds like our Role-play) and experimentation with ideas and content. I'll go there. It was certainly more creative in the way it was put to use. (Note, it didn't insist on you being goggled up...)

And then there's Gibson's ideas which haven't been really explored, but they include large AI entities, VooDoo worship, mapping and exploring the real world (the whale), in effect, using the Metaverse as an addition to the world for world-type activities, not just games. In fact, I don't think anybody in Gibson's books actually play in the metaverse, they use it for real. It was an augmentation of the world, not an alternative to it.

The biggest stumbling block seems to me the idea that if you aren't wearing goggles, sensor gloves and earphones, it isn't the metaverse. I think it's time to step away from this concept that if you aren't limiting your senses to just two and a half it's not the metaverse. Drop that idea, come back to a keyboard and screen and optionally a microphone and speakers and see where we go from where we are now.

The wisest thing I believe Linden Lab have done is not force any definition on us as to what "the metaverse" is. They've outlined some no-go areas, which makes sense, but the rest of it is up to us. It might need a little more integration with the real world, but I can see what we have now as a good starting point.

 

Ok, so that's me done, I'll get back to my snarky one-liners when I wake up tomorrow

[Lucia Nightfire]

1 hour ago, Profaitchikenz Haiku said:

rescued endangered species like dragons from ravenous maidens

What eroge is this from?

[Ardy Lay]

6 hours ago, Prokofy Neva said:

the rhetorical gimmicks people use to try to win arguments in a thread like this

Perhaps this is "the game" they speak of.

[Ardy Lay]

6 hours ago, Rowan Amore said:

That makes absolutely no sense whatsoever when the majority of people at crowded event turn on see friends only.  Lordy.

Likewise, advertising online makes no sense if one makes the same assumption, in that "the majority of people" use an effective ad blocker.  Has this stopped advertising?  Unfortunately, no.  😉  Let the strutting continue, it's less harmful than online advertising.

[ChinRey]

3 hours ago, Profaitchikenz Haiku said:

I couldn't shake off that feeling that I and the water were both steadily climbing.

But rivers do sometimes flow upwards in Norway. We've got so many of them there isn't enough room for the all in the downwards direction.

Edit: Sorry, I couldn't resist it. Am I right in assuming you were cycling down in a deep gorge? A bicycle does funny things to you sense of balance and direction. A little bit of change in your blood sugar level of maybe some wind can make the pedalling feel much lighter or heavier than your subconciousness expect. Combien that with limited visual clues and it's easy to get confused.

Edited March 24, 2021 by ChinRey

[Drayke Newall]

9 hours ago, Prokofy Neva said:

The people who are afraid of change are not, in fact, those who keep explaining that SL is not a war game and is more complex, etc. -- but those who keep jamming on this idea that SL must change into a war game.

VERY LONG POST AHEAD SORRY  

But you and others like you are not understanding what people are saying and that is the problem. You say SL is not a war game and is more complex. No one is disagreeing with you. Second Life first and foremost is a content creation platform. It is what Phillip described it as many, many times. Not a game or a social world, but a content creation platform. One that any person should be able to create whatever they wanted. In other words, the long forgotten motto of SL 'your world, your imagination'.

This is why people are saying that Second Life needs to update, move with the times, allow x, y, z and keep up as the forefront of the metaverse or virtual worlds. They want that same freedom of 'your world, your imagination' to come back again. Do things in world again simply.

There are so many opportunities that have been created since then that Second Life can be a part of. Just look at ecommerce websites. Back in hype years they didn't even exist, now they do. Ironically it is what business's flocked to SL for in they hype years and why they left as no one understood what ecommerce was back then.

People came to second life to do the things they couldn't do in RL - i.e. HAVE A SECOND LIFE - the future of the internet - Web2.0 all of that. That hasn't changed, though the limitations of Second Life now (due to not updating and moving with the times) has meant that people are now restricted in what they can do. THAT is the problem with Second Life now and what we are arguing needs to change - evolve. Even Ebbe in 2014 stated there needs to be an evolution of Second Life to increase users. He stated he wanted second life to go from 1 million users to 100 million users. This hasn't happened as retention isn't there. Evolving Second Life will bring that retention.

Further if say, someone rents 20 private regions, creates an impressive modern first person shooter, racing game, rpg or whatever, please explain how that is bad for Second Life? It impacts you in no way, shape or form and you are still free to use Second Life as you do now, just dont visit those 20 private regions.

THE METAVERSE OF SECOND LIFE

Whilst that modern built 20 region game doesn't impact you at all, it has the potential to not only increase Linden Labs profits (meaning more investment in Second Life), but also has a huge draw cards for another demographic not in second life - of which have a lot of money. Not to mention massive ramifications for Second Life economy, user retention, marketing, content creation etc.

Then it goes further, all of a sudden SL is a proper content creation platform Virtual World again rivalling others (like Unreal Engine) due to all the updates and Activision games decide to build all their games in Second Life now. After all it allows players to use a common virtual currency across all games and publishers as well as a shared inventory and avatar. Linden Lab finally have a big fish which means more will come.

Then you have Microsoft that comes along and thinks we want a share of the pie as well, "hey why dont we create a link between our AR glasses and try and make what you see in SL as an augmented reality object in real like".

Now we are starting to see a metaverse, but why stop there - after all 'your world, you imagination' and lets face it the metaverse is much, much bigger than that.

BMW start thinking, "well we use Microsoft's AR glasses to work out how we are going to create our next car, why dont we build it in Second Life". Because Second Life now has modern real world physics, modern programming and Realistic Graphics, they move their R&D into Second Life and sell cars virtually and in RL. This allows customers to select a car in Second Life and then ship it to them or pick up locally - saves BMW show room costs only needing a few for test driving.

But then, Calvin Klein thinks "well if BMW can do that to save show room costs, how about we try it as well after all, back in 2006 we did try second life for the same reason but was limited due to the program. Anyway who had even heard of ecommerce websites back then - now though...". So Calvin Klein then starts making their clothes in second life and have their own 5 region paradise virtual store where a person can go through, look at their stock - even try it on or just select their size like on their ecommerce website now. Then when they find something they like, they go to the virtual checkout purchase it and it is shipped to them in RL and a copy is delivered free for their avatar.

All of a sudden Amazon thinks, "wait what is this whiz fangled new thingamajig - all our products are bought via ecommerce and not seen physically before buying why dont we go into Second Life as well". They set up a huge store where they can display the goods and people get the new improved 'ecommerce 2.0' experience. See before you buy virtually just like in a mall but without ever going out. Have VR glasses even better! (think of the shopping mall scene in Ready Player One).

Then this multinational real estate company comes along as thinks "Gee Whiz look at this great new METAVERSE called Second Life". They think and realise that their clients in America only see photos and a floor plan of their houses for sale in Japan. They already get 3D floor plans made and come up with a great idea. "What if we build the house for sale in Japan in Second Life and make it so that those clients in America can walk around virtually through it as if they are actually there". All of a sudden you have realeastate.com, zoopla etc providing virtual tour links to properties for sale allowing someone to walk through it - possibly even with VR headset.

Then AMC theatre's think, well people have Netflix and all that now and our costs have been increasing since COVID. Why dont we make cinemas in Second Live where people can go with their friends virtually and watch a movie for a small admission fee on their own TV screen. Netflix decide to do the same after all watching at home by yourself is no fun go with your friends virtually to watch the movie and due to COVID people are already doing more online from home.

It goes on and on and on. THAT is a metaverse. It is nothing like you are arguing where we are suggesting turning SL into a game. We are suggesting that LL pull their finger out and start updating their graphics, viewer, scripts, servers, lag, EVERYTHING. So Second Life becomes the metaverse - what those companies in the hype years were wanting, because we want Second Life to succeed as such. The sad thing is that like I have already said - I think it is too little too late and more than likely you will come in anyway and reply "who wants that?"

Edited March 24, 2021 by Drayke Newall

[Prokofy Neva]

6 minutes ago, Drayke Newall said:

VERY LONG POST AHEAD SORRY  

But you and others like you are not understanding what people are saying and that is the problem. You say SL is not a war game and is more complex. No one is disagreeing with you. Second Life first and foremost is a content creation platform. It is what Phillip described it as many, many times. Not a game or a social world, but a content creation platform. One that any person should be able to create whatever they wanted. In other words, the long forgotten motto of SL 'your world, your imagination'.

This is why people are saying that Second Life needs to update, move with the times, allow x, y, z and keep up as the forefront of the metaverse or virtual worlds. They want that same freedom of 'your world, your imagination' to come back again. Do things in world again simply.

There are so many opportunities that have been created since then that Second Life can be a part of. Just look at ecommerce websites. Back in hype years they didn't even exist, now they do. Ironically it is what business's flocked to SL for in they hype years and why they left as no one understood what ecommerce was back then.

People came to second life to do the things they couldn't do in RL - i.e. HAVE A SECOND LIFE - the future of the internet - Web2.0 all of that. That hasn't changed, though the limitations of Second Life now (due to not updating and moving with the times) has meant that people are now restricted in what they can do. THAT is the problem with Second Life now and what we are arguing needs to change - evolve. Even Ebbe in 2014 stated there needs to be an evolution of Second Life to increase users. He stated he wanted second life to go from 1 million users to 100 million users. This hasn't happened as retention isn't there. Evolving Second Life will bring that retention.

Further if say, someone rents 20 private regions, creates an impressive modern first person shooter, racing game, rpg or whatever, please explain how that is bad for Second Life? It impacts you in no way, shape or form and you are still free to use Second Life as you do now, just dont visit those 20 private regions.

THE METAVERSE OF SECOND LIFE

Whilst that modern built 20 region game doesn't impact you at all, it has the potential to not only increase Linden Labs profits (meaning more investment in Second Life), but also has a huge draw cards for another demographic not in second life - of which have a lot of money. Not to mention massive ramifications for Second Life economy, user retention, marketing, content creation etc.

Then it goes further, all of a sudden SL is a proper content creation platform Virtual World again rivalling others (like Unreal Engine) due to all the updates and Activision games decide to build all their games in Second Life now. After all it allows players to use a common virtual currency across all games and publishers as well as a shared inventory and avatar. Linden Lab finally have a big fish which means more will come.

Then you have Microsoft that comes along and thinks we want a share of the pie as well, "hey why dont we create a link between our AR glasses and try and make what you see in SL as an augmented reality object in real like".

Now we are starting to see a metaverse, but why stop there - after all 'your world, you imagination' and lets face it the metaverse is much, much bigger than that.

BMW start thinking, "well we use Microsoft's AR glasses to work out how we are going to create our next car, why dont we build it in Second Life". Because Second Life now has modern real world physics, modern programming and Realistic Graphics, they move their R&D into Second Life and sell cars virtually and in RL. This allows customers to select a car in Second Life and then ship it to them or pick up locally - saves BMW show room costs only needing a few for test driving.

But then, Calvin Klein thinks "well if BMW can do that to save show room costs, how about we try it as well after all, back in 2006 we did try second life for the same reason but was limited due to the program. Anyway who had even heard of ecommerce websites back then - now though...". So Calvin Klein then starts making their clothes in second life and have their own 5 region paradise virtual store where a person can go through, look at their stock - even try it on or just select their size like on their ecommerce website now. Then when they find something they like, they go to the virtual checkout purchase it and it is shipped to them in RL and a copy is delivered free for their avatar.

All of a sudden Amazon thinks, "wait what is this whiz fangled new thingamajig - all our products are bought via ecommerce and not seen physically before buying why dont we go into Second Life as well". They set up a huge store where they can display the goods and people get the new improved 'ecommerce 2.0' experience. See before you buy virtually just like in a mall but without ever going out. Have VR glasses even better! (think of the shopping mall scene in Ready Player One).

Then this multinational real estate company comes along as thinks "Gee Whiz look at this great new METAVERSE called Second Life". They think and realise that their clients in America only see photos and a floor plan of their houses for sale in Japan. They already get 3D floor plans made and come up with a great idea. "What if we build the house for sale in Japan in Second Life and make it so that those clients in America can walk around virtually through it as if they are actually there". All of a sudden you have realeastate.com, zoopla etc providing virtual tour links to properties for sale allowing someone to walk through it - possibly even with VR headset.

Then AMC theatre's think, well people have Netflix and all that now and our costs have been increasing since COVID. Why dont we make cinemas in Second Live where people can go with their friends virtually and watch a movie for a small admission fee on their own TV screen. Netflix decide to do the same after all watching at home by yourself is no fun go with your friends virtually to watch the movie and due to COVID people are already doing more online from home.

It goes on and on and on. THAT is a metaverse. It is nothing like you are arguing where we are suggesting turning SL into a game. We are suggesting that LL pull their finger out and start updating their graphics, viewer, scripts, servers, lag, EVERYTHING. So Second Life becomes the metaverse - what those companies in the hype years were wanting, because we want Second Life to succeed as such. The sad thing is that like I have already said - I think it is too little too late and more than likely you will come in anyway and reply "who wants that?"

So, you had the Furry Abyss. What happened? Too laggy? And a few things for sale on the MP. Too frustrating to create? There is nothing to stop you from laying out 20 sims in SL and putting whatever Furry Abyss or car racing or war game you like and see who shows up.

And...I guess you didn't live through 2007-2008 in SL? 

It's not about "not wanting to turn SL into a game". It's that all your examples are games and your thinking is games and even when you imagine these big corporations coming in, your notion of what they would do is limited, and you're not factoring in the history of big companies that already came and did this and left. I've never seen someone so aggressively demand something that they themselves aren't doing but want LL to do. It makes no sense to me. There's no clear motivation here for what is driving it.

Edited March 24, 2021 by Prokofy Neva

[Drayke Newall]

2 hours ago, Prokofy Neva said:

So, you had the Furry Abyss. What happened? Too laggy? And a few things for sale on the MP. Too frustrating to create? There is nothing to stop you from laying out 20 sims in SL and putting whatever Furry Abyss or car racing or war game you like and see who shows up.

Actually it ran for over 10 years, had absolutely NO lag but AUD dropped against the USD and so had to give it up due to Cost. The same reason most sims close.

That is also one of the reasons that is stopping people laying out 20 sims in SL for such things. It is the reason why LL want to increase retention and premium uptake. It is the reason why LL are trying to evolve second life into not relying on one revenue stream. TIER COST. All of which can not happen unless LL make second life evolve to bring in the users, retain them and have them go premium. All of which is NOT POSSIBLE unless they change things like people are suggesting.

You really think bringing something pointless up like that is going to provide you with a better argument? Your response is just so laughable and goes to show that you have no idea like others have said in this thread. Also your ardent position in your replies in not even considering or compromising on the fact that Second Life needs to update its graphics, scripting engine and viewer to create a better program for people to build whatever they want in goes against what you said in one of your posts that you are not a fanboy. All of your posts point to one thing, you like SL for what it is and think LL is doing a great job and can do no wrong. AKA Fanboy.

I dont respond to such people because no matter what is said ends up with people just hitting their heads against a wall.

Edited March 24, 2021 by Drayke Newall

[Prokofy Neva]

24 minutes ago, Drayke Newall said:

Actually it ran for over 10 years, had absolutely NO lag but AUD dropped against the USD and so had to give it up due to Cost. The same reason most sims close.

That is also one of the reasons that is stopping people laying out 20 sims in SL for such things. It is the reason why LL want to increase retention and premium uptake. It is the reason why LL are trying to evolve second life into not relying on one revenue stream. TIER COST. All of which can not happen unless LL make second life evolve to bring in the users, retain them and have them go premium. All of which is NOT POSSIBLE unless they change things like people are suggesting.

You really think bringing something pointless up like that is going to provide you with a better argument? Your response is just so laughable and goes to show that you have no idea like others have said in this thread. Also your ardent position in your replies in not even considering or compromising on the fact that Second Life needs to update its graphics, scripting engine and viewer to create a better program for people to build whatever they want in goes against what you said in one of your posts that you are not a fanboy. All of your posts point to one thing, you like SL for what it is and think LL is doing a great job and can do no wrong. AKA Fanboy.

I dont respond to such people because no matter what is said ends up with people just hitting their heads against a wall. Now that I know you are one I wont be replying to you on this thread anymore.

The topic of the thread is essentially "What is the Metaverse" and "what does it take to get there".

And all you can keep saying is, "SL needs to update their graphics, do this, do that, do the next thing".  It's not a vision. It's a list of complaints without any sense, without any roadmap of how LL gets there except, "Kill all those people who are in the way". Any Stalinist project like that always fails. If you can't create your better mousetrap without deleting entire continents and driving away people who have sculpties and prims in their inventory and create inworld, you don't have a world, you have an extermination plan and  merely a boardroom "proof of concept". And that's all I'm hearing here in this thread. Extermination plans for people who object, and blue-sky whiteboarding.

Sims are expensive and we all get that. The answer is to go and create that better thing in the open sims like Kitely. Oh, except that's not as fun! There's so few people! So a key way people defer costs of sims in the viable virtual world we actually have of Second Life is to have groups, rentals, customers, content sales, etc. That's what I have always done. I'm poor in RL, a single parent of two working in the non-profit sector, and I couldn't invest in all these virtual things unless I figured out how to constantly offset the cost.

So it's reasonable to ask what you have done all your Second Life, why you can't go on doing it, even what you have done all your RL, and why you feel compelled to work in virtuality, and finally why don't you do it in Roblox if it is so much better. It's hardly pointless or off topic to demand this when someone harangues in comment after comment that everybody must do thus and so, but he doesn't have to do anything except insult, browbeat, and harass. I'm not for letting people do this under the guise of their big plans for "the Metaverse". The authoritarian types always show up for these discussions and imagine that they can insult and intimidate everyone else into just being steamrolled by their "vision".

Again, I accept SL for what it is because my idea of the Metaverse has nothing to do with graphics or engines or engineers but other non-tangible but still hugely important things like civil society, democratic governance, accountable regulatory and standards-setting bodies, etc. I don't think LL has done a good job in those areas at all, but they have some accomplishments, among which is not only their own Linden-Assisted Living in Bellisseria -- really their greatest achievement -- but many resident-made communities on both islands and Mainland which they helped bring into being. And now my main complaints are that the map and search are broken, and I can't imagine them putting in the superhighway to the much-vaunted Metaverse where all the boys get to play with their toys until they can at least get the map and search on. Sim crossings are gilding the lily at this point -- most people stay on their sims. 

Whatever you want to say about LL and their failings, and there are many, they're the ones who attracted investors to their vision and implemented it to the best of their ability and have continued to attract very high quality and skilled people and have made a profit -- and enabled their users to make a profit -- and sold their business and created paydays for their investors. This is something no other giant Internet business like Facebook or Twitter or Instagram has ever done -- where the users are fodder except for tiny corps of engineers they let use their APIs. Intellectual property protection, creativity, and a real marketplace are all areas where LL has excelled. You haven't done any of this; neither have I. I only work here -- at least I've kept viable for 17 years and that's not trivial.

If I want a car drive, I can ask my son in RL to drive me in his fancy new car. If I need war, I can read histories of the Silk Road and the routing of the British from Afghanistan, etc. My generation requires much less entertainment than yours.

[Gabriele Graves]

On 3/22/2021 at 11:22 PM, Prokofy Neva said:

I think the first thing to realize about the Metaverse, Gabriele, or anyone who wants to talk about the overarching themes and not just "how can SL become more like my favourite war game with better graphics" or "how can I take over the platform with my One Big Idea for how the engineering should change", it's clear the Metaverse already exists and no one company can create it and some did already.

It's like the Whole Earth Catalogue, created by the pioneers of the Internet, whose slogan was "You can't put it together; it is together."

So whether you are now refreshing a hospital or pharmacy page and trying to get a vaccine appointment -- because telephones and snail mail are now obsolete and don't work -- or whether you are refreshing secondlife.com to get a stilt house, you are in the Metaverse, Madge, you're soaking in it.

I disagree that that just visiting sites on the web or just being connected to the internet is being in the Metaverse.

I think the closest to the Metaverse concept we have created are the 3D virtual sandbox style environments that don't have inherent goals that are pre-baked into the fabric of the environment (note: not the same as not containing things to do that have goals) and do their best to get out of the way so that people using that space can define and shape it.  It is an immersive thing whether or not you use goggles or just access through a screen.  It would be a place where everybody goes for some reason with few exceptions.  Most of all, in the Metaverse you would have a sense of presence and identity and it would be a continuum where you have the same identity everywhere in it.

Neither the web or the internet satisfy that description which was the original vision when the term was coined.  Obviously the details of portraying the Metaverse may change according to each person's vision of what it should be but I think the elements I have identified are in fact its core elements and intrinsic to its meaning even though they do not specify the details of how it must be achieved, be portrayed, accessed or work.

There are definitely places on the web and the internet that tick some of those boxes but pretty much every single contender is missing one of more of those core elements.

Edited March 24, 2021 by Gabriele Graves

[Drayke Newall]

1 hour ago, Prokofy Neva said:

but they have some accomplishments, among which is not only their own Linden-Assisted Living in Bellisseria -- really their greatest achievement 

You are joking right?

You tout Bellisseria as an accomplishment, which in a very small sense it is but then disregard what people are saying need to happen to make Second Life better. Despite Bellisseria being the result of that very thing people arguing about here in this thread.

Those same people talking in this thread about how LL need to update things be that environments, what can be done, graphics, scripting etc and need to pull their finger out and speed up their slow turnaround were screaming for an update to the 2010 made prim linden homes for YEARS.

In other words, LL evolved to meet with the times with that ONE thing A DECADE TO LATE.

Here is a hint also, graphics doesn't always mean an update to the engine. Graphics can and does also mean how an object looks, its modelling, the scene it is placed into etc. New Linden Homes = better than old linden homes therefore hey presto they updated the linden homes graphics to something modern with materials users expect and the uptake improved that they are still hardly available.

Speaking of Bellisseria, it might be a small achievement of an update but no where near where it needs to be. LL and users blame content creators for creating high poly mesh and lagging everything yet LL provide no incentive to not. They ignore their own advice time and time again.

Lets talk about LL creating a caravan home in Bellisseria that has a near higher render cost than their entire two storey home despite being smaller, because they decided it was necessary to mesh EVERY SINGLE SCREW or MESH EVERY SINGLE GROOVE on the caravan when a texture would suffice, with materials. I was surprised not to see the entire tire tread being meshed - or was it, I can't remember.

How about the Bellisseria trees that, whilst made of mesh, have a normal cylinder prim (worse than a cube for rendering) around their trunk for a physics shape because Second Life mesh upload and physics system is so bad that sometimes just 'cause, a trunk refuses to not be phantom, or the branches just refuse to not affect the trunk physics - or is it because the moles just couldn't be bothered making an individual physics shape as well? Yet the only way to fix the former two is to update the mesh system as well as the physics system.

But oh no, according to you updating the engine isn't necessary 'cause you are happy with it how it is.

Edited March 24, 2021 by Drayke Newall

[Prokofy Neva]

1 hour ago, Gabriele Graves said:

I disagree that that just visiting sites on the web or just being connected to the internet is being in the Metaverse.

I think the closest to the Metaverse concept we have created are the 3D virtual sandbox style environments that don't have inherent goals that are pre-baked into the fabric of the environment (note: not the same as not containing things to do that have goals) and do their best to get out of the way so that people using that space can define and shape it.  It is an immersive thing whether or not you use goggles or just access through a screen.  It would be a place where everybody goes for some reason with few exceptions.  Most of all, in the Metaverse you would have a sense of presence and identity and it would be a continuum where you have the same identity everywhere in it.

Neither the web or the internet satisfy that description which was the original vision when the term was coined.  Obviously the details of portraying the Metaverse may change according to each person's vision of what it should be but I think the elements I have identified are in fact its core elements and intrinsic to its meaning even though they do not specify the details of how it must be achieved, be portrayed, accessed or work.

There are definitely places on the web and the internet that tick some of those boxes but pretty much every single contender is missing one of more of those core elements.

No, I didn't mean just "visiting websites". I mean visiting sites that enable you to do virtually what you used to do in RL. That might be a sliding scale from making an appointment or moving funds to a teledoc or a Zoom meeting with an accountant, and maybe you want to lop off some of that continuum until it is "3D". But I think virtualization is a broader concept.

Yes, I agree that the "closest" are those that make 3d sandboxes and get out of the way, indeed. Well, long ago I defined a virtual world as 1) a sense of place and 2) drama. So you say "sense of presence" which isn't quite the same thing as "a sense of place" and you say "identity" -- but it doesn't have to remain the same across worlds; I would hope that it resolve pseudonyms to real-life identities for accountability. 

If you prioritize high graphics and superior engineering, then you only have a world with designers and engineers and their fanboyz in it, and that's always been the problem at the core of SL in my view. Nobody denies they are necessary; but they need to realize they are not sufficient. Even when left to themselves they have not made the worlds work.

[Prokofy Neva]

55 minutes ago, Drayke Newall said:

You are joking right?

You tout Bellisseria as an accomplishment, which in a very small sense it is but then disregard what people are saying need to happen to make Second Life better. Despite Bellisseria being the result of that very thing people arguing about here in this thread.

Those same people talking in this thread about how LL need to update things be that environments, what can be done, graphics, scripting etc and need to pull their finger out and speed up their slow turnaround were screaming for an update to the 2010 made prim linden homes for YEARS.

In other words, LL evolved to meet with the times with that ONE thing A DECADE TO LATE.

Here is a hint also, graphics doesn't always mean an update to the engine. Graphics can and does also mean how an object looks, its modelling, the scene it is placed into etc. New Linden Homes = better than old linden homes therefore hey presto they updated the linden homes graphics to something modern with materials users expect and the uptake improved that they are still hardly available.

Speaking of Bellisseria, it might be a small achievement of an update but no where near where it needs to be. LL and users blame content creators for creating high poly mesh and lagging everything yet LL provide no incentive to not. They ignore their own advice time and time again.

Lets talk about LL creating a caravan home in Bellisseria that has a near higher render cost than their entire two storey home despite being smaller, because they decided it was necessary to mesh EVERY SINGLE SCREW or MESH EVERY SINGLE GROOVE on the caravan when a texture would suffice, with materials. I was surprised not to see the entire tire tread being meshed - or was it, I can't remember.

How about the Bellisseria trees that, whilst made of mesh, have a normal cylinder prim (worse than a cube for rendering) around their trunk for a physics shape because Second Life mesh upload and physics system is so bad that sometimes just 'cause, a trunk refuses to not be phantom, or the branches just refuse to not affect the trunk physics - or is it because the moles just couldn't be bothered making an individual physics shape as well? Yet the only way to fix the former two is to update the mesh system as well as the physics system.

But oh no, according to you updating the engine isn't necessary 'cause you are happy with it how it is.

Bellisseria is not about whether the Lindens made a mesh that shows the screws in detail, whether they made that mesh a decade too late, whether blah blah blah. Again, these are all external, superficial concerns. It's an accomplishment because these engineers and graphic designers decided -- for once -- to work to customer requirements. AnnMarie O'Toole who worked in a real IT company and didn't just hack around used to talk about the necessity of meeting customer requirements. Not just making yet another app on the VC's dime, but having real customers.

Every patch that goes by has a list of nuts and bolts that engineers have prioritized, and maybe they were necessary, although often they appear exotic -- but the overarching need is for customers and to make a profit. What most people wanted was a home ready made for them they could move into. They didn't want to buy land and struggle with it and have ugly neighbours. They didn't want to struggle trying to rez a house out from sellers who never log on to help. They wanted it ready-made to walk into. Even those who mastered all the hard skills of buying land and putting out houses and even making houses liked the sheer relief of a contiguous world that worked the way it was supposed to, without blight and horror and aggression and war at every turn, but instead a suburbia that might be Trumanville, but isn't Stepford Wives. That's all there is to it. It's an accomplishment in a domain you can't seem to recognize.

Edited March 24, 2021 by Prokofy Neva

[Drayke Newall]

1 hour ago, Prokofy Neva said:

Again, these are all external, superficial concerns. It's an accomplishment because these engineers and graphic designers decided -- for once -- to work to customer requirements,

Yes, they need to listen to the customer requirements but do so speedily and do it right the first time. Both of which LL have never achieved, including Bellisseria.

Hence we have 2 year released dates for a feature update when other developers for other software get it out in 6 months. That is the difference.

Whilst LL need to listen and work to the customers requirements, they also need to understand that a user also expects those requirements to be met in an appropriate timeframe or they walk. With Second Life it has been the later far to much - AKA retention.

[Gabriele Graves]

1 hour ago, Prokofy Neva said:

No, I didn't mean just "visiting websites". I mean visiting sites that enable you to do virtually what you used to do in RL. That might be a sliding scale from making an appointment or moving funds to a teledoc or a Zoom meeting with an accountant, and maybe you want to lop off some of that continuum until it is "3D". But I think virtualization is a broader concept.

When I am using web sites to do things like you describe, that is my RL.  I am not in any way jacked into any metaverse.  It's no different to me picking up the phone except that it is self service.  I have the same identity.  I literally have no sense of leaving my RL place to go immersively into another place any more when we used phone calls.  Those web sites are just the equivalent of RL self-service kiosks.  If they were in-store self-service kiosks only the location and convenience would be any different from doing it online.

The same for a video call, I am not using an avatar to represent me during the call, it is my real face.  At most it is a window between two or more RL places.

These things augment or extend our RL, they don't take us out of it to another place.  There is no virtualization or virtual reality to them to encompass them.  That's not the metaverse as I understand the term.
 

Edited March 24, 2021 by Gabriele Graves

[Prokofy Neva]

24 minutes ago, Gabriele Graves said:

When I am using web sites to do things like you describe, that is my RL.  I am not in any way jacked into any metaverse.  It's no different to me picking up the phone except that it is self service.  I have the same identity.  I literally have no sense of leaving my RL place to go immersively into another place any more when we used phone calls.  Those web sites are just the equivalent of RL self-service kiosks.  If they were in-store self-service kiosks only the location and convenience would be any different from doing it online.

The same for a video call, I am not using an avatar to represent me during the call, it is my real face.  At most it is a window between two or more RL places.

These things augment or extend our RL, they don't take us out of it to another place.  There is no virtualization or virtual reality to them to encompass them.  That's not the metaverse as I understand the term.
 

Well, it's interesting that you think that the Metaverse entails "leaving your real-life identity" so that you have some pseudonym and maybe become a completely different being.

But educators using virtual worlds for training don't see themselves as leaving their RL identity or RL at all, they are using a model to teach.

So I think that virtualization is the key. That is, Zoom virtualizes business and education, as primitive and obnoxious as it is. It's a virtual-world maker. We were all forced into it this past year to simply do our jobs or go to school. So like it or not, it's the Metaverse. It's taking things out of real life where they were, in buildings and face to face, and putting them online with the electronic interface. I totally get if you want to leave these unlovely things out of the Metaverse. But I think it will be part of the Metaverse anyway.

The self that is on the Zoom call is not as real as yourself face to face.

I think augmented reality will fit in the Metaverse as well. Hasn't it always? If you're going to put holograms of people or show a building that was once on a site, or could be on it to be built in the future, that's virtual reality.

I don't think Gibson or Stephenson can have the last word on this.

So Wikipedia, which isn't valid as an institution, in my view, because of its anonymity and unaccountability, still functions as a rough and ready source of information. It defines the Metaverse as follows: " a collective virtual shared space, created by the convergence of virtually enhanced physical reality and physically persistent virtual space, including the sum of all virtual worlds, augmented reality, and the Internet."

So this collective virtual shared space may be as mundane as a teledoc exam or a virtual board meeting where people paste in backgrounds. It does contain augmented reality. It also says "it's the sum of all" AND augmented reality AND the Internet, i.e. it is just "visiting web sites".

I'm not very thrilled with Zoom meetings or virtualization of medicine but I think just practically, you have to include it. I totally get that people want ownership of a Metaverse that fits their fancy. I think none of us are going to get to do this. I think big companies and governments will fill it out, and people will scramble, and the obnoxious forums types will alternately sneer with glee if they have crushed some old sculpty enemy under the treads of their fake race cars or supertanks, and plunge into despair when they realize they don't run things. I'm not for artificially trying to unify these disparate interest groups. I think denizens of Second Life have a lot of understanding of the mundane and day-to-day issues of virtuality, whether regarding property or identity or society, and others will find this out the hard way.

Edited March 24, 2021 by Prokofy Neva

[Gabriele Graves]

4 minutes ago, Prokofy Neva said:

Well, it's interesting that you think that the Metaverse entails "leaving your real-life identity" so that you have some pseudonym and maybe become a completely different being.

Not sure why that is interesting.  I see it as protecting your identity and being smarter online.  It is just good sense to limit what information you share and only share what is needed with those that need it.  In order to do that you need a protective identity.  One theme that I have encountered recurrently in "metaverse" type fiction is that you travel through the it engaging in different activities essentially being the same identity but that identity is not your real one.

4 minutes ago, Prokofy Neva said:

So Wikipedia, which isn't valid as an institution, in my view, because of its anonymity and unaccountability, still functions as a rough and ready source of information. It defines the Metaverse as follows: " a collective virtual shared space, created by the convergence of virtually enhanced physical reality and physically persistent virtual space, including the sum of all virtual worlds, augmented reality, and the Internet."

Wikipedia in just the very next sentence says this "The word "metaverse" is made up of the prefix "meta" (meaning beyond) and the stem "verse" (a backformation from "universe"); the term is typically used to describe the concept of a future iteration of the internet, made up of persistent, shared, 3D virtual spaces linked into a perceived virtual universe."

I think that is a clarification of the first sentence and is much closer to the way I think of the metaverse.

[Profaitchikenz Haiku]

8 hours ago, Lucia Nightfire said:

What eroge is this from?

Rescuing the Dragon? It's an almost direct quote from Hitch-Hiker's Guide to the Galaxy

Edited March 24, 2021 by Profaitchikenz Haiku

[Profaitchikenz Haiku]

6 hours ago, ChinRey said:

Am I right in assuming you were cycling down in a deep gorge?

It was more U-shaped, a glacial valley. The road was almost on the same level as the river, which was fast-flowing although no white foam. Afterwards, I suspected that the road embankment was rising very slightly compared to the water, I seemed to be riding uphill 60% of the time in Norway compared to downhill 40%.

I think I was still in the northern part, so between Alta and Narvik, but the memories are all on tape recordings and I haven't transcribed that far yet so it's not something I can search for.  

[Drayke Newall]

1 hour ago, Gabriele Graves said:

Wikipedia in just the very next sentence says this "The word "metaverse" is made up of the prefix "meta" (meaning beyond) and the stem "verse" (a backformation from "universe"); the term is typically used to describe the concept of a future iteration of the internet, made up of persistent, shared, 3D virtual spaces linked into a perceived virtual universe."

I think that is a clarification of the first sentence and is much closer to the way I think of the metaverse.

This is the way everyone thinks of the metaverse (well unless you are Prokofy apparently) and is how I described the metaverse if Second Life was to become it in a post earlier on this page.

A website in itself is not a metaverse but, the action of the website without the website interface within a virtual world is - a persistent shared 3D space such as second life is or an augmented reality system everyone is a part of. Like in my example where for instance Amazon conduct their ecommerce business within second life rather than using a website and rather than visiting a RL store you can go to the Amazon virtual mall to buy and try everything.

Another example would be walking down the street with AR glasses on seeing holographic advertisement displays or food health information when you look at an apple in a store etc. The internet becomes an extension of your everyday life not just a tool on a computer you access be that augmented or in a virtual space or both together.

A zoom call isn't the metaverse either it is simply a video call. In the case of a metaverse it would be you go to work inside of a 3D virtual space like second life and conduct your in person business their representing yourself as an avatar likeness. For example you organise a virtual meeting at a virtual café. As far as an augmented metaverse goes, through AR glasses you go to a real life café and your friend you are meeting in another country is a holographic teddy bear sitting opposite you because that café has a virtual build somewhere allowing them to sit at the same table as you.

The metaverse is where what we perceive as the internet now goes beyond that to include all aspects of life, working, sharing, meeting etc in a virtual universe or augmented reality.

As for privacy, I am with you. If the metaverse comes about I would want to be able to ensure no one knows who I am in there.

[animats]

Today's new "Metaverse" player: "HiDef."

"The company is making a “genre-defining game” for the metaverse, the universe of virtual worlds that are all interconnected, like in novels such as Snow Crash and Ready Player One. The goal is to make interactive experiences that transcend traditional gaming boundaries and demographics."

So who's behind this?

• An NBA basketball player, TV producer, and motivational speaker.
• A "Chief Impact Officer" who was "associate director of the White House Office of Public Engagement" and an advisor to Lady Gaga.
• The former head of Warner Interactive Entertainment.

Building the thing is apparently outsourced to Protagonist Games in San Diego. You wouldn't expect those thought leaders to do any actual work, would you?

There is, at least, no mention of "blockchain".

Too many people are suddenly entering this business. We're seeing a flood of bad virtual worlds.

 

 

 

 

Edited March 27, 2021 by animats

[Prokofy Neva]

https://www.playableworlds.com/news/just-how-close-are-we-to-achieving-the-metaverse/

[animats]

Drayke Newall has some good points. A big question is, "OK, we've got the Metaverse, what do we do in there?"

SL has some areas where it ought to be strong, but isn't.

• You can have meetings in Second Life, but they're not great. What would it take to make them attractive and useful to more people? Now that too many people have had to deal with Zoom, can SL offer more?
• Education in Second Life was tried, and it failed. Is there a role there?
• Trade shows and conventions are possible but don't work all that well.
• Collaborative work within Second Life is possible, but rare.

There's a demand for this. People have had college graduations in Roblox and business meetings in Red Dead Redemption. There were once college graduations in Second Life, but that was a long time ago.

What are the pain points to doing this in Second Life? We here probably know.