Future of the metaverse, and all that

[Drayke Newall]

5 hours ago, Arielle Popstar said:

Right afterwards I watched the videos for the Microsoft Mixed Reality headsets and realized it is the next best thing to being there.

Unfortunately unless the glasses are reduced to the size of a pair of sunglasses and have enough computing power that you don't need to be tethered to a pc they are not going to be any different than VR. Whilst I love the idea of AR and think that that is where things should be headed, the bulkiness is always going to be the think that stops mainstream uptake.

5 hours ago, Arielle Popstar said:

One easy way to speed up frame rate is to limit the amount of avatars in a scene. Some finer grained viewer controls for limiting that would be nice. As an example would be the ability to render those avatars  you specifically select rather than just self and friends or all.

Doing this would not do anything to the many complaints of "I am lagging". In a world where people have myriads of Virtual Worlds all offering high frames and no lag the last thing people are going to do is limit avatars through the option when they come to Second Life - they expect (as they should) that their top tier computer can run it as 160+ frames. People want a populated vibrant world not an empty one.

5 hours ago, Lucia Nightfire said:

If specific avatars are causing lag, I would think/hope that once ArcTan is completed and accurate complexity values are reported, this can finally be realized through jellydolls. 

The trouble with this is that it puts the onus on the user to be able to understand ARC (history shows it doesnt work), limit it themselves by reducing avatars in options and make their world ugly with jellydolls. It is not the way LL should be doing things.

They need to make it so that it is all controlled behind the scenes and not turn avatars into Jelly Dolls. The kind of things that I would assume impossible with current SL programming such as dynamic texture scaling based on object size (for example - have a ring with 512 texture, it is scaled down to 24x24 automatically) or such things as improving the occlusion system so that if an avatar is behind a wall it does not render at all until either within a certain distance. At the moment if I remember correctly occlusion is simply a priority system which doesn't really work.

[Prokofy Neva]

1 hour ago, Coffee Pancake said:

It's really not.

SL's input and physics round trip is brutal.

Games prioritize player agency. The player does the thing, and the server accepts that .. with maybe a little sanity checking to stop hacks and cheats. The players action is authoritative and perceptually instantaneous.

SL prioritizes the shared experience. The player attempts the thing, sends that to the server which calculates the outcome and then sends that back to the player and everyone else. The server is authoritative,  half a second's delay a good day for most SL users. 

The absolute best SL can do is the round trip latency .. from input to result, depending on location ~200ms

A game running at 60fps can do it in 16.7ms

SL is exceptionally restrictive in what it's users can do. You have no idea what you're talking about and working on the assumption that SL is the top of the creative freedom tree. 

Argumentum ad populum is a fallacy. Don't worry Prok, no one will make you play war games, promise.

So with that first bit, you talk sense, and provide fact-based information that really someone could paste and put at the top of the tech sections or at the gates of SL or anywhere that people begin to have fancy ideas about this and that and what this old rig can do. It can only do X because Y. Great. More people should accept that and move on to that Radiant Future elsewhere.

Then, you veer off into the typically ideological and condescending response that we've come to expect on these forums. SL is only "exceptionally restrictive" in what it's users "can do" if you only think flatly in technical terms, a la your opening paragraph.

But there is the society of SL and its norms and the platform creator's ideals and so on that make up something "alongside" the software. There's probably some scholarly name for this like "human capital" or something but it won't be accurate. So of course it's not restrictive -- not like Roblox and not like 100 other things. The point is, the Lindens decided to allow adult activity; Roblox didn't. The Lindens decided to allow on demand creation and sale of goods -- Roblox didn't. There are huge varieties of things to do and not just "select-a-game" where you "shoot" or "drive" or perhaps "adopt" -- but nothing else that is free and interactive with you moving the chairs around.

One thing I learned in Catholic schools, and one can learn especially in the Boys' Latin Schools with their debate teams, and those "rules" that you invoke like "argumentum ad populum" is that these debate club rules are only for debates in Boys' Latin School. They are merely about whether, within that narrow constraint or game, your debate will gain points or not, or be judged as a winner or or loser.  They are about whether you can be persuasive *in the art of debate* which is understood as "a game" or "a specialized activity". 

They weren't intended -- and are not understood -- as "rules for life" or "rules for the Internet". They have migrated to the Internet as somehow "the rules" by people who actually were never in any debate club let along Catholic Boys' schools but who just like to sound more educated by invoking Latin phrases. You often find those invoking them feel they are the exception to the rule.

For example, most people think "you aren't allowed" to make ad hominem attacks, of the sort you yourself make when you haughtily declare that "no one will make you play war games," as if I'm some benighted, fearful creature that is spooked by a gunshot" and argues against all the sillyness here out of "fear I'll be made to play a wargame". I guess you missed my show-and-tell today. Oh, well.

In fact, one can and does make ad hominem attacks although they are also in your Boys' Latin School list of no-nos, and you make them thinking you haven't, even as you press the button to report someone who you think has. That is, the mods might or might not police this Latinate trespass, but in real life, it's fine to say (to use a classic debate club thesis) "Priests do not understand married life because they have never been married."

Argumentum ad populum first of all isn't an accurate description of my argumentation based on the mere facts of not just anecdotal stories but streams and streams of customers on land. And if that isn't persuasive for you, I should note that our Lindens, where once they left safe "unchecked" as the default on their land they were indifferent to and blew up on occasion, in more recent years they *checked that box* as the default so most land is "safe," i.e. where you can't be shot and TP'd home in a game etc -- unless you uncheck it. So I rest my case there. Even your Lindens don't think the default is the war game and they need to build around that.

And second of all, again, it's just a rule invoked as if this is Boys' Latin School debate club -- which it isn't. Many people invoke populist arguments on the forums that are, er, popular, and applauded. "Let's get him," is one of the more frequent ones.

 

 

[Coffee Pancake]

.. and that's a 715 word strawman.

[Paul Hexem]

35 minutes ago, Prokofy Neva said:

SL is only "exceptionally restrictive"

Every other game I own that allows me to build and/or create in the same ways as SL, does it better and faster. At the end of the day, SL is a terrible platform for almost everything it does.

The only reason it stands out is because it does so many things. The fact that it does them all poorly hasn't caught up to it yet. We'd be silly to ignore all these other games and platforms that are catching up.

[Coffee Pancake]

A lot of my friends that were mostly in SL for group roleplay have found homes in other actual games, a bit of easy building, modpack mechanics and a few friends is all it takes. Half the group decides to go play something else together for a couple of weeks and the rest of the community just evaporates.

So many games now come with progression based pick and place building (that's considerably more accessible than SL's edit tools)

No, they can't upload their own mesh or mangle the prims, but they weren't doing that here.

When they do come back to SL it's to OOC shop a little and play dress up.

[Paul Hexem]

10 minutes ago, Coffee Pancake said:

were mostly in SL for group roleplay have found homes in other actual games

I immediately think of Conan Exiles. I know for a fact a lot have switched to that one. Much better builds there than were ever put together in SL.

[Dragon Mommy]

1 hour ago, Paul Hexem said:

I immediately think of Conan Exiles. I know for a fact a lot have switched to that one. Much better builds there than were ever put together in SL.

Ran a CE roleplay server for awhile and played on others. I discovered a ton of people arrived from SL to that community. 

[Prokofy Neva]

4 hours ago, Paul Hexem said:

Every other game I own that allows me to build and/or create in the same ways as SL, does it better and faster. At the end of the day, SL is a terrible platform for almost everything it does.

The only reason it stands out is because it does so many things. The fact that it does them all poorly hasn't caught up to it yet. We'd be silly to ignore all these other games and platforms that are catching up.

And yet, you continue to play the SL forums gave, as that's more fun. And even go into SL and make things and sell them. Because likely the "build and create" doesn't include "sell". I can "build and create" in The Sims Online reverse engineered on FreeSo, too. That doesn't mean it is "like" SL.

Re: A lot of my friends that were mostly in SL for group roleplay have found homes in other actual games, a bit of easy building, modpack mechanics and a few friends is all it takes. Half the group decides to go play something else together for a couple of weeks and the rest of the community just evaporates.

But you're still stuck in a game. You can idle to the side somewhere or hang out in some staging area but it is not the same as making a home and interacting with people in SL, making, selling, buying things.

I wonder why you guys feel the need to be so contrary about this. You feel the need to light a fire under LL's feet? The VP of Engineering job is open now, maybe you should apply.

I'm not the fan boy here but I can appreciate and value actual differences in quality and magnitude.

You should be honest and show what the builds are that you can "pick and place" in a game like this one forcing you through Viking purgatory. I'd rather have the freedom to put the Viking anywhere and do what I want in it.

 

Edited March 23, 2021 by Prokofy Neva

[RunawayBunny]

I am not sure what you are arguing about but I have to make a correction about my current favorite game

2 hours ago, Prokofy Neva said:

You should be honest and show what the builds are that you can "pick and place" in a game like this one forcing you through Viking purgatory. I'd rather have the freedom to put the Viking anywhere and do what I want in it.

Game not forcing you anything. You can ignore everything and build a wizard tower (not a viking concept) or.. gigantic farm. Or you can tame army of wolves, or you can create gigantic shipyard or if you feeling creative a spaceship:

Edited March 23, 2021 by RunawayBunny

[ChinRey]

On 3/22/2021 at 5:39 AM, Prokofy Neva said:

The Lindens created Sansar to have another option in case this very heavy load of sims and old things like sculpties and system bodies became so heavy that they could gradually built

That's not quite correct. Sansar was originally intended as a replacement for Second Life and it dates much further back than you may think. Rod Humble mentioned that LL was working on an upgraded Second Life as early as 2012 and Ebbe did eventually - when it became clear it was blame not credit to share - aknowledge that Sansar was a continuation of this. And if you go back to the earliest Sansar discussions and announcements here elsewhere, yu'll see they were still thinking of Sansar as SL replacement during the first months of 2014. Then slowly but surely it evolved into an independent project that had never ever had anything to do with Second Life.

Except of course Sansar was always based on the lessons they had learned from creating and running Second Life - which makes me wonder why they chose to leave out every single feature that still makes Second Life so atractive to so many people despite all tis flaws.

Edited March 23, 2021 by ChinRey

[RunawayBunny]

3 hours ago, Prokofy Neva said:

Because likely the "build and create" doesn't include "sell".

You need think outside box.. SL might provide a marketplace but many platforms actually provides money if you know how to do.

Here is a new channel creator publishes step by step Valheim creation with everyone: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCFM06_FkMzDXpWQtAmIyyzQ and makes some money while doing it..

Edited March 23, 2021 by RunawayBunny

[ChinRey]

14 hours ago, Paul Hexem said:

Everything SL does, other platforms do better. This is fact.

Yes but no other platform can do everything SL does. Second Life isn't best at anything but it's reasonably good for so much. It's the swiss army knife of virtual reality and there's always room for that.

Edited March 23, 2021 by ChinRey

[RunawayBunny]

52 minutes ago, ChinRey said:

Yes but no other platform can do everything SL does.

I guess it depends.. If you are experienced with programming and 3D modelling there is better alternatives exist but requires teamwork.

Example: google play, apple app store, steam store you are free to pick any tool you want (unity, unreal, c#, java, c++ etc) and make your app or games.

But for normal user yes SL provides nice quality sand box creation experience with objects, you can buy things from market place  create "your own SIM" It is decent sandbox creation game I guess

Edited March 23, 2021 by RunawayBunny

[Sid Nagy]

If you think SL is a game, you most likely miss the essential possibilities of the platform.

Edited March 23, 2021 by Sid Nagy
Little improvement.

[Merlina21]

Quote

"If you think SL is a game, you most likely miss the essential possibilities of the platform" - Sid Nagy

Interesting observation - so what would you identify as being the essential possibilities of the platform? I certainly see it is more than just a game, because of the control I have over creating an customising my avatar and exploring different identities, and even though my own skills in creating objects are very basic, I can certainly see the potential for designing and creating both objects and spaces, and am impressed by the imagination and creativity that SL reflects.

From my own limited experience of 3D gaming it seems you can only select from characters that somebody else has created, and also only access different locations by playing the game, and the currency is just scoring points in order to win different objects.
That's not the same as being able to design and create and then trade objects you have created, or buy items that other users have designed and created.

Second Life seems to me more of a cross over between being a 3D game and a social media platform where people can go just to interact, rather than to play a game. It seems more like a world that has been created by its users, rather than just the creators of a particular game, and can provide simulations of real life locations and cultures, as well as imaginary ones.

If there are other platforms now offering this kind of experience, then I'm interested to hear about them and explore them.
 

Edited March 23, 2021 by Merlina21
to add quote

[RunawayBunny]

47 minutes ago, Sid Nagy said:

If you think SL is a game

It is a game at least for me.

[Phil Deakins]

SL isn't a game for anybody. It contains some games but it's merely an environment, and not a game, or it would have some defined gameplay, such as, kick the ball into the other person's net and you score a point

The only reason why some people think of SL as a game is because it looks a lot like some actual games. But it isn't game, and nobody can play it.

[RunawayBunny]

13 minutes ago, Phil Deakins said:

SL isn't a game for anybody.

I heard it before in many other games this game not for anybody. Yes I understand SL contains a development platform and a social platform.

But in any platform (game or virtual reality... or any fancy name you pick) you are not forced to do anything.

Example in a combat oriented game you can actually get away without doing combat activity. Like herding, farming, crafting, building, or just talking people and having good time without engaging game. You are not forced to do anything.

How SL different those platforms? other than offering "advanced" development tools? Any sandbox game or platform can provide lower or higher quality development tools and social interaction.

Edited March 23, 2021 by RunawayBunny

[Rowan Amore]

[Coffee Pancake]

57 minutes ago, Sid Nagy said:

If you think SL is a game, you most likely miss the essential possibilities of the platform.

It's not a game, but that doesn't mean it shouldn't be engineered to perform like one where the situation allows, or that people shouldn't be able to create or play games in SL.

Enabling that inside SL would go a long way to making SL more responsive and interactive in non-game situations.

For example:

 -In group social gatherings, moving around without bumping people is difficult due to poor local performance amplifying the round trip latency. Game style client side authoritative physics wont solve the rendering performance hit, but it will cut the delay between input and action to almost nothing. Perceptually, most of the lag just evaporated.

-Simple client side scripting for HUD attachments would reduce server load and perform on a par with viewer UI. Even if all they could do was manipulate textures, trigger self rotations or transformations and send messages to chat on a channel.

 

Imagine ... Avatars and vehicles that move responsively and don't glitch drift into the sunset. Being able to gather in a group and everyone just move around or explore together, for fun! HUDs that do the thing the instant you click on them. Lighter server load at the same time.

 

People you don't know not inviting you to play wargames you don't like.

 

[Merlina21]

43 minutes ago, Sid Nagy said:

 

 

44 minutes ago, Sid Nagy said:

 

 

10 minutes ago, Coffee Pancake said:

It's not a game, but that doesn't mean it shouldn't be engineered to perform like one where the situation allows, or that people shouldn't be able to create or play games in SL.

Enabling that inside SL would go a long way to making SL more responsive and interactive in non-game situations.

For example:

 -In group social gatherings, moving around without bumping people is difficult due to poor local performance amplifying the round trip latency. Game style client side authoritative physics wont solve the rendering performance hit, but it will cut the delay between input and action to almost nothing. Perceptually, most of the lag just evaporated.

-Simple client side scripting for HUD attachments would reduce server load and perform on a par with viewer UI. Even if all they could do was manipulate textures, trigger self rotations or transformations and send messages to chat on a channel.

 

Imagine ... Avatars and vehicles that move responsively and don't glitch drift into the sunset. Being able to gather in a group and everyone just move around or explore together, for fun! HUDs that do the thing the instant you click on them. Lighter server load at the same time.

 

People you don't know not inviting you to play wargames you don't like.

 

That presumably is the ideal for Virtual Reality - so what is the major current limitation that is preventing developers from creating that?  Is it to do with the capabilities of the platform itself, or connections speeds and the 'ping rate' and the power of people's devices or headsets?

And what about integration with capture of 'live footage' using VR cameras to capture 360 degree imaging.  Could the camera in SL which currently captures 2D video be developed to film in 360 degrees?  Although I realise that would in turn thrown up some copyright issues as people could then replicate what others have built....

[Coffee Pancake]

1 minute ago, Merlina21 said:

That presumably is the ideal for Virtual Reality - so what is the major current limitation that is preventing developers from creating that?  Is it to do with the capabilities of the platform itself, or connections speeds and the 'ping rate' and the power of people's devices or headsets?

SL is 100% server side and your viewer is literally just a viewer.

You press up. That keypress is sent to the region. The region then calculates what happens based on physics and scripted attachments and then tells everyone nearby (including you) what changed about your avatar. Under ideal conditions this adds massive latency between input and action, conditions are never ideal when it matters.

Input to action can range between 200 to 1000ms (a whole second) or more if the region is bogged down / connection flutters / wifi / etc.

The viewer lies to cover this up. Most of the movement you see on your screen is made up guesswork. This is why you drift off into the sun, or keep walking though walls, snap backs, yoyoing, wading though treacle at events, and why people get upset about vehicles and region crossings.

[Merlina21]

16 minutes ago, Coffee Pancake said:

SL is 100% server side and your viewer is literally just a viewer.

You press up. That keypress is sent to the region. The region then calculates what happens based on physics and scripted attachments and then tells everyone nearby (including you) what changed about your avatar. Under ideal conditions this adds massive latency between input and action, conditions are never ideal when it matters.

Input to action can range between 200 to 1000ms (a whole second) or more if the region is bogged down / connection flutters / wifi / etc.

The viewer lies to cover this up. Most of the movement you see on your screen is made up guesswork. This is why you drift off into the sun, or keep walking though walls, snap backs, yoyoing, wading though treacle at events, and why people get upset about vehicles and region crossings.

Thanks for the explanation of how it works.

So relating it back to when 3D animation was done manually by moving objects around, the keyboard and viewer is sending the instructions to the platform to move the object or avatar x amount in a particular direction, or to change its shape, and at the same time generate the frames that show that movement or change in real time.

Interesting to hear how the viewer then only estimates what is actually happening - does a VR headset do this more efficiently?

Edited March 23, 2021 by Merlina21
accuracy and improvement of layout

[Coffee Pancake]

3 minutes ago, Merlina21 said:

Interesting to hear how the viewer then only estimates what is actually happening

estimates while waiting for the server to update it .. so if you're walking forward the viewer will assume you continue moving in that direction and keep you moving .. forever sometimes.

Yoyoing happens when the viewers assumptions get corrected by the region. 

3 minutes ago, Merlina21 said:

- does a VR headset do this more efficiently?

Worse. There is nothing a VR headset does more efficiently ! A VR headset is two tiny monitors and a few sensors that you strap to your face and places quite high demands on whatever it's displaying. If the computer can't provide a smooth, responsive and consistent experience, the user can easily end up physically ill, which in turn creates a strong psychological aversion to repeating the experience.

It was not uncommon back when VR was newer for developers to be on prescription anti nausea medication just to get though the day. Most everyone I know who got into VR game dev ended up moving on to other non VR projects.

[Lucia Nightfire]