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17 minutes ago, Qie Niangao said:
1 hour ago, Luna Bliss said:

[Quoting a notecard]
I am being told that some people publicly say that I used that quote "ironically", you see what is in between the lines here, and I have to make it clear that I am not a fascist, for only fascists could use such a quote ironically.

Oh Groundhog Day already?

Yes, certain patterns return again and again, like choosing to focus on something one doesn't like as opposed to focusing and commenting on the greater, more beautiful  & bigger picture. Indeed this is a meme too, like the groundhog meme.

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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, Qie Niangao said:

For those wondering, Qie's, my and other folks' answer on that not so thought through NC can be found on page 11...

 

Edited by Fionalein

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3 minutes ago, Fionalein said:

For those wondering, Orwar's, Qie's, my and other folks' answer on that not so thought through NC can be found on page 11...

 

That's the beauty of Groundhog Day: this time around, we can choose not to read those comments. 😍

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Posted (edited)
1 minute ago, kiramanell said:

That's the beauty of Groundhog Day: this time around, we can choose not to read those comments. 😍

Then don't. Willfull ignorance does not make Djehan's statement less wrong however ;)

 

Edited by Fionalein
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This thread has devolved into a petty argument over a murdered child's quote and one person's interpretation and use of it. I'm pretty sure Anne herself would be ashamed to see people using her quote to ridicule another. I don't mean Djehan either. If you don't understand Djehan's message in the use and placement of that quote, that's on you, not Djehan. It isn't incongruent.

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Posted (edited)
6 minutes ago, Selene Gregoire said:

This thread has devolved into a petty argument over a murdered child's quote and one person's interpretation and use of it. I'm pretty sure Anne herself would be ashamed to see people using her quote to ridicule another. I don't mean Djehan either. If you don't understand Djehan's message in the use and placement of that quote, that's on you, not Djehan. It isn't incongruent.

But apparently Djehan didn't understand the extent of her own use of the message  - that's not on me that's onto her PERIOD!

She placed the art she has to live with the interpretations ... and as she chose to write a comment on the interpretations she has to live with the interpretations of that comment to.

Cannot stand others interpreting your art? Don't go public with it.

Edited by Fionalein
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2 minutes ago, Fionalein said:

But apparently Djehan didn't understand the extent of her own use of the message  - that's not on me that's onto her PERIOD!

She did understand it. I could see that in her own words. 

The problem is other people have decided she didn't before ever hearing from her about it. They made an assumption and then jumped to a conclusion and are now refusing to admit to having been wrong. 

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21 minutes ago, Fionalein said:

But apparently Djehan didn't understand the extent of her own use of the message  - that's not on me that's onto her PERIOD!

She placed the art she has to live with the interpretations ... and as she chose to write a comment on the interpretations she has to live with the interpretations of that comment to.

Cannot stand others interpreting your art? Don't go public with it.

 

Since we're apparently doing the whole Groundhog Day thingy today, let me just repeat what I said earlier to you and your detractors:

"Being Dutch myself, I have no problem with someone using Anne's words at all. In fact, should I ever say something as beautiful like that, which can still inspire hope in ppl, and a trust in mankind under such dire conditions, 70+ years after my death, I already, hereby, give you permission to use it. :)"

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Posted (edited)
30 minutes ago, Fionalein said:

But apparently Djehan didn't understand the extent of her own use of the message  - that's not on me that's onto her PERIOD!

She placed the art she has to live with the interpretations ... and as she chose to write a comment on the interpretations she has to live with the interpretations of that comment to.

Cannot stand others interpreting your art? Don't go public with it.

That was one unsuccessful ninja edit. lol

 

She doesn't have to breathe either does she.

Edited by Selene Gregoire
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Posted (edited)
3 minutes ago, Selene Gregoire said:

That was one unsuccessful ninja edit. lol

It was an add on explanation - Djehan is still wrong on that silly fascist quote,...

Edited by Fionalein
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19 minutes ago, Selene Gregoire said:

She did understand it. I could see that in her own words. 

The problem is other people have decided she didn't before ever hearing from her about it. They made an assumption and then jumped to a conclusion and are now refusing to admit to having been wrong. 

 

What is so especially beautiful about Anne's words there, apart from being a gem on their own, is the very next line:

"I simply can’t build up my hopes on a foundation consisting of confusion, misery, and death."

She simply chooses to remain optimistic. Not even because despite what's happening around her, she still believes in mankind (already beautiful, an und für sich), but because, there and then, she simply decides that remaining hopeful about humanity is the only true way of surviving. A beautiful inspirational thought, and wholly befitting life in a dystopian city. And pretty darn mature thinking for a teenage girl, to boot.

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30 minutes ago, Fionalein said:

It was an add on explanation - Djehan is still wrong on that silly fascist quote,...

Wait... what? The words of Anne Frank are facist?  

Anne Frank, a facist. 

Wow. That one takes one hell of a leap. Not one I care to even try to make. I'll leave that for the conspiracy theorists.

 

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31 minutes ago, kiramanell said:

 

What is so especially beautiful about Anne's words there, apart from being a gem on their own, is the very next line:

"I simply can’t build up my hopes on a foundation consisting of confusion, misery, and death."

She simply chooses to remain optimistic. Not even because despite what's happening around her, she still believes in mankind (already beautiful, an und für sich), but because, there and then, she simply decides that remaining hopeful about humanity is the only true way of surviving. A beautiful inspirational thought, and wholly befitting life in a dystopian city. And pretty darn mature thinking for a teenage girl, to boot.

I have that in common with her. I'm just glad she didn't have to go through what I'm going through. The lifelong roller coaster ride of holding on to that hope. The older you get, the more downs there are and they get longer each time. That would have been the one thing that could have broken her. I'm barely hanging on by the skin of my teeth at 2 months short of 60.

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41 minutes ago, Fionalein said:

It was an add on explanation - Djehan is still wrong on that silly fascist quote

Am I reading the same thread cause I don't get it. How is Anne's or Djehan's quote facist? Can you spell it out completely?

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Posted (edited)
42 minutes ago, kiramanell said:

 

What is so especially beautiful about Anne's words there, apart from being a gem on their own, is the very next line:

"I simply can’t build up my hopes on a foundation consisting of confusion, misery, and death."

She simply chooses to remain optimistic. Not even because despite what's happening around her, she still believes in mankind (already beautiful, an und für sich), but because, there and then, she simply decides that remaining hopeful about humanity is the only true way of surviving. A beautiful inspirational thought, and wholly befitting life in a dystopian city. And pretty darn mature thinking for a teenage girl, to boot.

no one cirticises Anne's words

 

Djehan placed the quote in her dystopian 3D model - nothing wrong with that

Djehan insisted on not meaning it ironical - well a waste of potential but still nothing objectable.

Djehan then called everyone using it in an ironic way a fascist (after using it in an ironic context herself none the less)- proving she lacks the tiniest bit of self reflection or artistical perspective concerning this delicate matter.

The last fact is the one I - and others - object. You don't seem to understand the distinction. No one objects Anne Frank's quote - no one tries to devalue it's tragic beauty (and please admit it would be way less a strong quote without the author's tragic end). But that does not make everyone using it right. Djehan used it (out of artistical instinct I guess) in a pretty ironical and aggressive way. And she would have gathered much praise for it if not for her uninvited ill-voiced self defence where she tried to instate herself as morally superior who has the sole authority over it's use.

Edited by Fionalein
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10 minutes ago, Selene Gregoire said:

Wait... what? The words of Anne Frank are facist?  

Anne Frank, a facist. 

Wow. That one takes one hell of a leap. Not one I care to even try to make. I'll leave that for the conspiracy theorists.

 

 

Even the best spin doctors would be hard-pressed to make "Anne Frank, a facist." work. I would add a smiley, but it's actually pretty sad someone would stoop this low in this thread. Yet it happened.

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Posted (edited)
15 minutes ago, Selene Gregoire said:

Wait... what? The words of Anne Frank are facist?  

Anne Frank, a facist. 

 Wow. That one takes one hell of a leap. Not one I care to even try to make. I'll leave that for the conspiracy theorists.

  

Please read the whole text Luna quoted and then come back. Djehan called others fascists - that is what I was referring to.

Just now, kiramanell said:

 

 Even the best spin doctors would be hard-pressed to make "Anne Frank, a facist." work. I would add a smiley, but it's actually pretty sad someone would stoop this low in this thread. Yet it happened.

you too

Edited by Fionalein
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Posted (edited)
18 minutes ago, Fionalein said:

Please read the whole text Luna quoted and then come back. Djehan called others fascists - that is what I was referring to.

 

21 minutes ago, Fionalein said:

 

Djehan used it (out of artistical instinct I guess) in a pretty ironical and aggressive way. And she would have gathered much praise for it if not for her uninvited ill-voiced self defence where she tried to instate herself as morally superior who has the sole authority over it's use.

Ok Fio, I'm trying to understand.

Anne Frank said, "In spite of everything i still believe that people are really good at heart".

Are you saying that you believe if a person does not believe like Anne (that "in spite of everything people are good at heart") , that there could be other reasons, aside from them being a facist?  Do you not have this viewpoint that Anne has yourself, and so object to being called a facist because you do?

Edited by Luna Bliss
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29 minutes ago, Fionalein said:

No one objects Anne Frank's quote - no one tries to devalue it's tragic beauty (and please admit it would be way less a strong quote without the author's tragic end). But that does not make everyone using it right. Djehan used it (out of artistical instinct I guess) in a pretty ironical and aggressive way.

Where did Djehan use the quote in an ironical and aggressive way?

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Just now, Luna Bliss said:

Are you saying that you believe that if a person does not believe like Anne, that "in spite of everything people are good at heart" ,that there could be other reasons, aside from them being a facist?

No. An ironical context does not necessarily mean to negate the quote - placing it in an "inappropriate" context is sufficient. Art has many liberties, political art often uses those to provoke a thought - a movie ending in mutually assured thermonuclear destruction with the wind blowing this very quote into the end credits would be applauded for it's irony - no one (well Djehan aside) would dare to call the director a fascist though...

3 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

Do you not have this viewpoint that Anne has yourself, and so object to being called a facist because you do?

Who tells you it was still Anne's point of view to the end? She wrote that line before they caught her...

No I do not share it - individual humans have some morals remaining - but humanity as a whole pretty much eroded them away in the 90s - if the next generation does not find a way to kickstart values again we will be doomed. And yes I still object being called a fascist for that point of view.

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19 minutes ago, Fionalein said:

Djehan then called everyone using it in an ironic way a fascist (after using it in an ironic context herself none the less)- proving she lacks the tiniest bit of self reflection or artistical perspective concerning this delicate matter.

The last fact is the one I - and others - object. You don't seem to understand the distinction. No one objects Anne Frank's quote - no one tries to devalue it's tragic beauty (and please admit it would be way less a strong quote without the author's tragic end). But that does not make everyone using it right. Djehan used it (out of artistical instinct I guess) in a pretty ironical and aggressive way. And she would have gathered much praise for it if not for her uninvited ill-voiced self defence where she tried to instate herself as morally superior who has the sole authority over it's use.

 

Let's pull up her quote then, shall we?!

"I am being told that some people publicly say that I used that quote "ironically", you see what is in between the lines here, and I have to make it clear that I am not a fascist, for only fascists could use such a quote ironically."

You're really cherry-picking clauses out of a whole sentence. She's just using the term, after saying she's been accused of being a fascist herself. Basically, she's just saying "Look, I'm not a fascist. I use her words in the most sincere manner possible. If anything, only a real fascist would make light of her words." Something to that effect. Leave it to you, to twist that to mean she's calling ppl fascists.

The way she said it is probably not how I would have worded it. But keep in mind she's French, and quite possibly, ironically, misused the word 'ironically.' I think it's pretty clear what she meant, though; as it is equally clear you're desperately trying to find any and all ammo to discredit her.

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Posted (edited)
6 minutes ago, kiramanell said:

 

Let's pull up her quote then, shall we?!

"I am being told that some people publicly say that I used that quote "ironically", you see what is in between the lines here, and I have to make it clear that I am not a fascist, for only fascists could use such a quote ironically."

You're really cherry-picking clauses out of a whole sentence. She's just using the term, after saying she's been accused of being a fascist herself. Basically, she's just saying "Look, I'm not a fascist. I use her words in the most sincere manner possible. If anything, only a real fascist would make light of her words." Something to that effect. Leave it to you, to twist that to mean she's calling ppl fascists.

 The way she said it is probably not how I would have worded it. But keep in mind she's French, and quite possibly, ironically, misused the word 'ironically.' I think it's pretty clear what she meant, though; as it is equally clear you're desperately trying to find any and all ammo to discredit her.

You are cherry picking your interpretation yourself - Djehan is part of of an international acting alternative art collective using a pretty aggressive language ( writing "manifestos", going to trash Berlin ,...) we can assume she pretty much meant what she wrote there. Would fit their pattern pretty well.

Edited by Fionalein

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40 minutes ago, Fionalein said:

Please read the whole text Luna quoted

I have her on ignore for good reason.

I did see where Djehan called others facist but only after she had been called one. That's what started the whole thing.

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Sequoia Sojourner said:

Am I reading the same thread cause I don't get it. How is Anne's or Djehan's quote facist? Can you spell it out completely?

There's a lot of dancing on the heads of pins and unnecessarily complicated knots being tied here. Here's the basics:

Hangars Liquides is a dystopian sim. As such, it can be read as a very dark and pessimistic commentary on human nature: left to our own devices, what we (humans) produce is nasty and (paradoxically) inhumane. Our future looks dark because we are.

Within HL, there is one part of the sim that, in strong contrast to the rest, is bright and cheerful and "happy" looking. It features a quote from Anne Frank: "In spite of everything i still believe that people are really good at heart." In effect, despite all the horrors she has witnessed, she still has faith in the essential goodness of humanity. In the same way that the part of the sim where this appears contrasts with dark, dystopian imagery elsewhere, Frank's quote seems to contrast with the implications of a dystopian world, which suggests that humans are not essentially good.

So . . . there are at least three basic ways to read that contrast in the context of the sim:

  1. The Frank quote, and the place where it appears, are a kind of torch of hope amidst the darkness of the rest of the sim, reminding us that, despite the dystopian possibilities of our future, we as humans are still capable of the essential goodness that Frank saw in humanity.
     
  2. The Frank quote, and the place where it appears, are sorts of parodies of the idea of human goodness: they are tiny, insignificant little glimmers of a naive belief in human goodness that are given the lie by the darkness around that represents the truth about the essential depravity of the human soul. The sim itself comments upon Frank's belief ironically, undercutting and suggesting that she was terribly, tragically wrong.
     
  3. The artist is not concluding either 1) or 2) above, but is rather leaving it to the viewer to determine for themselves whether Frank was right or wrong.

I have not seen the part of the sim, nor the quote, in question, so I'm not in a good position to judge which of these is the most likely reading.

It should be noted that the artist's intention is one thing, and the actual effect of the juxtaposition possibly quite another: it may well be that the intent was to produce something "hopeful," but that it comes across instead as a dark and ironic commentary. Artists create, but they don't control the meanings of their works.

 

Edited by Scylla Rhiadra
Subject-verb agreement!
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