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4 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

The solution, I think, is to count as NPOs only those organizations that have that certified status in RL. And that's probably going to rule out Hangars Liquides.

According to TDD123 "The creator / artist is licensed as such in France as a non-profit. Which gives her, by international standards, the same status as a non-profit the U.S. and  in Second Life".

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Posted (edited)
10 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

The solution, I think, is to count as NPOs only those organizations that have that certified status in RL. And that's probably going to rule out Hangars Liquides.

Association Loi 1901 (France) - Identification R.N.A. : W642000508 which is 501(c) compliant.

What probability are you referring to ?

Edited by TDD123
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Posted (edited)
2 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

According to TDD123 "The creator / artist is licensed as such in France as a non-profit. Which gives her, by international standards, the same status as a non-profit the U.S. and  in Second Life".

If that is, in fact, the case, then that's very good news.

It might be useful if someone was able to direct us to information about said non-profit? It might go some way to quelling the angst here?

ETA: And TDD has just provided that info!

Edited by Scylla Rhiadra
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4 minutes ago, kiramanell said:

I actually asked her about that, recently (like what if HL wouldn't be possible in SL any more, or couldn't be exported or something), and she said would just build an entire new city in Sansar, or on whatever platform she could do it. I mean, OMG! That level of dedicaton (!)

Yes, many don't understand just how long it would take to rebuild something like HL, and most artists would desire to achieve something new...

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1 minute ago, Luna Bliss said:

Yes, many don't understand just how long it would take to rebuild something like HL, and most artists would desire to achieve something new...

 

Even for a creative genius like Djehan, I think it would take years, really. 

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1 minute ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

quelling the angst here

Angst that comes from the fear of someone else getting the bigger cookie?  I'm not sure that can be quelled...     :)

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Posted (edited)

What about my angst ?

A traditional cynical cis-gendered male as subtle as an old fart needs to preserve art within the slendering digital environment of Dionysus' uncaring children.

Woe on all of us.

Edited by TDD123
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6 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

Angst that comes from the fear of someone else getting the bigger cookie?  I'm not sure that can be quelled...     :)

Well, I'm reluctant to impute motives.

I think that there have been some legitimate concerns expressed here, and the way that the information about the financing and running of the sim has not been rolled out in a very effective manner.

Part of the problem may be that people have different priorities. Personally, I'd have loved to have seen more of AM Radio's work preserved; I'm not nearly as interested in cyperpunk and futurism. That said, I'm at Hangars Liquides now, even as I write this, and it's undoubtedly a really well-done place, and an entirely legitimate and worthy candidate for preservation.

The other problem is, I suspect, ideological. SL is itself built around a rather old-fashioned free-market, libertarian ethos, and there are some who have commented here (I could name at least one) I think are ideologically opposed to publicly-supported art. I am of a different opinion, but I'll concede the validity of the argument that something that can't support itself shouldn't be bailed out by the "public" (which in this case, of course, isn't the public at all, but rather the privately-owned LL), even if I disagree with that view.

I do think, however, that Kira's model -- that non-profits should be able to employ at least modest commercial means (rentals, sales) so long as the money is ploughed back into the maintenance of the non-profit core, applies here, but only because there is apparently an accredited NPO behind it.

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15 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

If that is, in fact, the case, then that's very good news.

It might be useful if someone was able to direct us to information about said non-profit? It might go some way to quelling the angst here?

ETA: And TDD has just provided that info!

 

Oh, yeah, she's for real alright. :) (In fact, I'm not even sure LL would even consider giving someone the NPO discount without written proof.)

And just a small excerpt of the ppl she worked with (from the donation site). She's actually pretty high-profile:

 

Our Augmented Reality works have been selected by world reknown curator Massimiliano Gioni at the 55th Venice Biennale as official collateral event in 2013.

We are also preparing the Venice Biennale in 2021 to present our Virtual Reality art.

As part of our educationnal non profit effort, for 8 years Hangars Liquides on SL collaborated through the prestigious China Art Academy in Hangzhou with Chinese New Media artist Ligong Shen.

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Posted (edited)
11 minutes ago, kiramanell said:

 

Oh, yeah, she's for real alright. :) (In fact, I'm not even sure LL would even consider giving someone the NPO discount without written proof.)

And just a small excerpt of the ppl she worked with (from the donation site). She's actually pretty high-profile:

 

Our Augmented Reality works have been selected by world reknown curator Massimiliano Gioni at the 55th Venice Biennale as official collateral event in 2013.

We are also preparing the Venice Biennale in 2021 to present our Virtual Reality art.

As part of our educationnal non profit effort, for 8 years Hangars Liquides on SL collaborated through the prestigious China Art Academy in Hangzhou with Chinese New Media artist Ligong Shen.

Yeah, personally I'm not really having a problem with the way that this seems to be set up -- with the homesteads helping to support a reduced-cost full-region core.

The decision of course is LL's: they aren't a public government or institution, but rather a profit-making organization. As such, their decision will presumably involve a cost-benefit analysis: will the retention of Hangars Liquides help keep SL a more attractive place for people to go, to the degree that that outweighs whatever costs might apply? I'd hope so.

Edited by Scylla Rhiadra
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4 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

Well, I'm reluctant to impute motives.

I think that there have been some legitimate concerns expressed here, and the way that the information about the financing and running of the sim has not been rolled out in a very effective manner.

Part of the problem may be that people have different priorities. Personally, I'd have loved to have seen more of AM Radio's work preserved; I'm not nearly as interested in cyperpunk and futurism. That said, I'm at Hangars Liquides now, even as I write this, and it's undoubtedly a really well-done place, and an entirely legitimate and worthy candidate for preservation.

The other problem is, I suspect, ideological. SL is itself built around a rather old-fashioned free-market, libertarian ethos, and there are some who have commented here (I could name at least one) I think are ideologically opposed to publicly-supported art. I am of a different opinion, but I'll concede the validity of the argument that something that can't support itself shouldn't be bailed out by the "public" (which in this case, of course, isn't the public at all, but rather the privately-owned LL), even if I disagree with that view.

I do think, however, that Kira's model -- that non-profits should be able to employ at least modest commercial means (rentals, sales) so long as the money is ploughed back into the maintenance of the non-profit core, applies here, but only because there is apparently an accredited NPO behind it.

 

Another beautiful post by your hand! ❤️

And to be entirely honest, I have to admit that I agree with you that 'the way that the information about the financing and running of the sim has not been rolled out in a very effective manner.' I studied Law myself (although IANAL yet), so I would probably have focussed on first establishing a clear and transparent framework for ppl to understand the legitimacy of the operation, before asking them for donations. But that's probably just my legal bias. I'm not an artist. :) 

I'm glad, at least, much more has become clear now, over the course of the last day. And thank you for bringing a positive voice to this endeavor.

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

This is a really good point, and one that has been sort of glossed over in much of the discussion here. To use a really simple instance, in RL non-profits such as museums and galleries almost invariably have "gift stores" that are themselves designed to "make a profit," but that contribute exclusively to the upkeep of the institution, rather than going into someone's pocket or investment portfolio.

The problem, I think, is that applying this kind of thinking about NPOs to SL would open a can of worms, because just about anyone who runs a public region or installation could claim that they qualify. How many sim owners actually make enough money to cash USDs out of SL? Not many, relatively speaking. So, anyone who uses their rentals, sales, and so on to support their estate or mainland tier costs is going to be able to claim that they too are a NPO, because everything that they earn in-world is going to the maintenance of their region(s) or parcels, rather than ending up in their RL bank accounts. And that would apply to a lot of people who run things that none of us would really consider "non-profit," yet alone "art."

The solution, I think, is to count as NPOs only those organizations that have that certified status in RL. And that's probably going to rule out Hangars Liquides. 

Precisely my point. On top of this NPOs can pay their members (to a point) and contractors they hire, I did the research and if the amount of red tape wasn't so off putting, i could probably turn my SL activities into an NPO. (I'm french too by the way so whatever works for hangars liquides would work for me too)

But on the other hand...that still feels really slimey, And don't mind paying taxes that much.

Edited by Kyrah Abattoir
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1 hour ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

I do think, however, that Kira's model -- that non-profits should be able to employ at least modest commercial means (rentals, sales) so long as the money is ploughed back into the maintenance of the non-profit core, applies here, but only because there is apparently an accredited NPO behind it.

I don't think there's a problem with selling Girl Scout cookies. But I might feel differently about that if 90% of my income came from other cookie companies and I were on the hook to supply cookie ingredients to the Girl Scouts at half price.

Hangars may well warrant tremendous largesse from an art-supporting service provider; that's cool. But using that contribution -- a Land discount -- specifically to offer rentals undercuts the Lab's own revenue stream and that of its Land channel partners. That's asking more than some posters to this thread seem to realize.

Segregating the revenue-generating regions from the discounted region doesn't completely remove that market-distorting subsidy (to repeat myself) but it's kinda close enough to fly under the radar, at least a far as I'm concerned (where my level of concern is irrelevant).

It's an interesting thought experiment, though, whether everybody would be just as happy if greedy landbaron Richie Rich Moneybags were offered the same deal of a discounted non-rental region for every four regularly priced rental Homesteads. That question, of course, is a test of art appreciation vs entitlement.

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26 minutes ago, Kyrah Abattoir said:

Precisely my point. On top of this NPOs can pay their members (to a point) and contractors they hire, I did the research and if the amount of red tape wasn't so off putting, i could probably turn my SL activities into an NPO. (I'm french too by the way so whatever works for hangars liquides would work for me too)

But on the other hand...that still feels really slimey,

 

12 minutes ago, Qie Niangao said:

I don't think there's a problem with selling Girl Scout cookies. But I might feel differently about that if 90% of my income came from other cookie companies and I were on the hook to supply cookie ingredients to the Girl Scouts at half price.

Hangars may well warrant tremendous largesse from an art-supporting service provider; that's cool. But using that contribution -- a Land discount -- specifically to offer rentals undercuts the Lab's own revenue stream and that of its Land channel partners. That's asking more than some posters to this thread seem to realize.

Segregating the revenue-generating regions from the discounted region doesn't completely remove that market-distorting subsidy (to repeat myself) but it's kinda close enough to fly under the radar, at least a far as I'm concerned (where my level of concern is irrelevant).

It's an interesting thought experiment, though, whether everybody would be just as happy if greedy landbaron Richie Rich Moneybags were offered the same deal of a discounted non-rental region for every four regularly priced rental Homesteads. That question, of course, is a test of art appreciation vs entitlement.

You and Kyrah raise completely valid concerns. Whatever one thinks about the merit of Hangars Liquides itself, there is a precedent here, and the possibility of exploitation by other, less deserving souls?

BUT . . . I assume that not just anyone can get NPO status in most countries. Art organizations (and I assume that this is the rubric under which Hangars Liquides falls) generally can, but Snidely "Whips" Rhiadra, my distant (and unloved) cousin who runs a two-region BDSM carnival with executive dungeon suites for rent, probably is going to face more challenges getting that kind of accreditation. So, if one restricts this option to those who represent RL NPOs, that will disqualify many who might otherwise exploit this.

The same goes for Richie Rich Moneybags. Presumably, Richie pockets -- i.e., includes as part of his RL subsistence income -- the proceeds raised from his vast estates. Doing so would bar him from non profit status, surely? I don't know how easy it would be to monitor compliance in this regard, but they must do so at the RL level, where the issue of criminal fraud becomes something that would concern people trying to game the system.

I suppose this does eat into LL's revenue, potentially, but in the case of Hangars Liquides -- with four homesteads and one discounted full region, correct? -- they must still be making at least a reduced profit. If these regions go poof, then of course so does whatever money LL does make from them. And then of course there are the difficult-to-quantify imponderables: how valuable are places like HL to things like retention, or (potentially anyway) for marketing?

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Posted (edited)

Its not entirely clear to me either, I mean the limits imposed by NPOs ensure that no one is gonna get rich from what their NPO pays them, but if you are fine with living on minimum wage and dont mind re-investing everything in more SL things?

This feels like something very possible for a dedicated SL user/group of users to me. Doesn't mean it's right however, an art focused NPO that ONLY promotes your OWN art is a bit weird to say the least. But you could make a case that you participate to the betterment of SL and the life of its residents

Edited by Kyrah Abattoir
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1 minute ago, Kyrah Abattoir said:

Doesn't mean it's right however, an art focused NPO that ONLY promotes your OWN art is a bit weird to say the least.

I take your point, although i think HL also has gallery space to host other artists. At least, I saw a sign for what looked to be an exhibit by someone when I popped in there earlier.

In Canada -- and surely also in France? -- we have government funding agencies for individual artists, most notably the Canada Council. And the US has the (much underfunded) NEA. But the determination as to what constitutes "non profit" would, I suppose, be up to the individual nation; I'm pretty sure that LL wouldn't want to get dragged into that quagmire. (Which is presumably why they took an arm's length approach to LEA.)

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1 minute ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

I take your point, although i think HL also has gallery space to host other artists. At least, I saw a sign for what looked to be an exhibit by someone when I popped in there earlier.

In Canada -- and surely also in France? -- we have government funding agencies for individual artists, most notably the Canada Council. And the US has the (much underfunded) NEA. But the determination as to what constitutes "non profit" would, I suppose, be up to the individual nation; I'm pretty sure that LL wouldn't want to get dragged into that quagmire. (Which is presumably why they took an arm's length approach to LEA.)

thats why i think they blanket ban commercial activity for non-profit regions, no "issues" to deal with, most NPOs that have sl presence typically get funded from outside SL anyway

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1 minute ago, Kyrah Abattoir said:

thats why i think they blanket ban commercial activity for non-profit regions, no "issues" to deal with, most NPOs that have sl presence typically get funded from outside SL anyway

That would be the ideal. Bryn Oh, for instance, used to be supported by Peter Greenaway (and may still be for all I know).

I would love to make an argument for "publicly funded art" in SL, but the recent demise of LEA certainly highlights some of the problems (although some of those I think were of LL's own making).

The fact is, however, the LL is not in any sense "public." So ultimately the determination will be -- does it contribute in some way to LL's bottom line?

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41 minutes ago, Qie Niangao said:

Hangars may well warrant tremendous largesse from an art-supporting service provider; that's cool. But using that contribution -- a Land discount -- specifically to offer rentals undercuts the Lab's own revenue stream and that of its Land channel partners. That's asking more than some posters to this thread seem to realize.

The reason we support art is because we, as a society, believe art brings a value to the community that can't be justified monetarily. What is beauty worth? It can't be defined in dollars and adds value to life that goes far beyond our daily purchases.
I would imagine LL would want their company to be seen as such, and not only a place for virtual humping and trying on new virtual clothes, and does not mind paying for a more diverse reputation.

However, if we get specific and look at the monetary value of an art sim in SL, I believe in the end an art sim actually makes more money for both "LL and its land channel partners" as opposed to creating any sort of unfairness. This is because the notoriety of high-quality sims attracts more customers/money for "LL and its land channel partners".

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Posted (edited)
3 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

The reason we support art

Sorry to make a slight correction but what you actually mean is "we support art we like".

Vincent van Gogh's work was only recognized after his death.

Edited by Kyrah Abattoir
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1 minute ago, Kyrah Abattoir said:
3 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

The reason we support art

Sorry to make a slight correction but what you actually mean is "we support art we like".

Well the trick is, as an artist, to find someone that supports YOUR art. A patron.  But yes, for sure, the art world is fraught with all the politics of any world unfortunately.

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34 minutes ago, Qie Niangao said:

Hangars may well warrant tremendous largesse from an art-supporting service provider; that's cool. But using that contribution -- a Land discount -- specifically to offer rentals undercuts the Lab's own revenue stream and that of its Land channel partners. That's asking more than some posters to this thread seem to realize.

 

I was going to say something very clever, something about ' difficult-to-quantify imponderables: how valuable are places like HL to things like retention' and such. Alas, Scylla already covered that. 😍

As for what ppl might consider 'undercutting the Lab's own revenue stream', I think we do well to keep in mind these are just 60 LI spots. That's not exactly a lot, in terms of competing with what LL rents out themselves (smallest of which is, what, 750 LI?). I've never dwelled on mainland, so I don't know what ppl are using there; but, judging by how many ppl lament the only 175 LI that comes with the old Linden homes, I doubt many ppl would be completely satisfied, for all their land needs, with only 60 LI. Tl;dr: I think LL's potential losses might be overstated a bit. I'm not complaining, btw; 60 LI is more than fair for what you pay. Just wanting to sail away a bit from this image of a huge Land Baron undercutting Linden's business en masse.

For me, I just wanted the small perk to be part of it, really. Should the time come, I may not even claim the place (but I will take the dystopian envo, thank you! *g*).

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Posted (edited)
50 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

The reason we support art is because we, as a society, believe art brings a value to the community that can't be justified monetarily. What is beauty worth? It can't be defined in dollars and adds value to life that goes far beyond our daily purchases.
I would imagine LL would want their company to be seen as such, and not only a place for virtual humping and trying on new virtual clothes, and does not mind paying for a more diverse reputation.

However, if we get specific and look at the monetary value of an art sim in SL, I believe in the end an art sim actually makes more money for both "LL and its land channel partners" as opposed to creating any sort of unfairness. This is because the notoriety of high-quality sims attracts more customers/money for "LL and its land channel partners".

 

Considering how Sansar, in its entirety, was basically set up to be a show-case for what can be achieved, to-date, with virtual worlds, it stands to reason LL definitely benefits themselves from places like HL. How much? I'm not a beancounter in their employment, but I'm sure their marketing department does the numbers; and that when they do offer deals, they do so knowing both parties involved will fare well by it.

Edited by kiramanell
I really need to learn how to spell
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54 minutes ago, Kyrah Abattoir said:

Sorry to make a slight correction but what you actually mean is "we support art we like".

Vincent van Gogh's work was only recognized after his death.

Now here's the rub : you call yourself on your website a 3D artist. Which is however a matter of taste. You can call yourself that all day long, but I will never agree to that.

It's harder to say that about somebody exposing at the Biennale. That is recognition. In our lifetimes.

You do not decide what is art. I don't. The Biennale does.

And you were not chosen.

 

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25 minutes ago, kiramanell said:

 

Considering how Sansar, in its entirety, was basically set up to be a show-case for what can be achieved, to-date, with virtual worlds, it stands to reason LL definitely benefits themselves from places like HL. How much? I'm not a beancounter in their employment, but I'm sure their marketing department does the numbers; and that when they do offer deals, they do so knowing both parties involved will fare well by it.

I hate to tell the hard cold truth here but in that LL would benefit more if Hangars is closing in SL - as Djehan proposed to porbably move on to SANSAR in that case...

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