Re: Gacha Missing and EMPTY BOXES....

[JanuarySwan]

37 minutes ago, Rowan Amore said:

No, I was arguing that you said it wasn't how the game was intended.  The rest of the explanation is to point out that regardless of how you play, it's still gambling.  Whether you play once or 1000 times makes no difference.  To you, it doesn't seem like gambling yet that doesn't change the fact that it is.

 

I don't gamble at it.  The five times in total perhaps I've put money into a Gacha machine was because I liked the whole of the store.  I didn't have money right then to buy as I was just looking (window shopping let's say) but I put some money into a Gacha machine for one or two items as a way to say I like your items and I will be back.  I looked at it like I could leave a tip in a tip jar or I could put some low cost lindens into a machine and get one item kind of like a thank you gift.  I knew I loved store.  It was a way to say thank you and I'll be back and nothing more rather than leaving a tip for nothing.  I have never once been tempted to gamble on a rare nor for any prize in a Gacha machine ever and I've seen hundreds.  My total reason for buying was a thank you and I'll be back cuz I love your items thing.  I was letting them know they had a fan.  

This is just my 2 cents worth.  

As far as Gashapons, fake tattoos in real life are one of the lamest things I've ever seen for kids.  Those toys in Gashapons machines, those are darling and cute.  I think some of these loot boxes with pay to progress are more like a scam than gambling.  

Edited March 5, 2021 by JanuarySwan

[Prokofy Neva]

2 minutes ago, Rufferta said:

An interesting thread. I would like to add:

In the US there is a lively market selling 'subscription boxes'. The idea is that the buyer gets a 'curated' box which is guaranteed to be worth more than you paid for it. The boxes continue to come on a regular basis until you cancel your subscription.

There are also 'mystery boxes' which are a one-time thing. I love watching UTube 'unboxing' videos...

I believe that the appeal of mystery boxes and subscription boxes is the anticipation and the fun of getting a 'gift' in the mail.

In SL the period of anticipation when you 'pull' a gatcha lever is shorter, but the bursts of good feeling you get when you 'win' a rare makes up for the disappointment of getting a common. Yes, this can become addictive.

---

In Tofalar, near the southern edge of the region, there is a hut with a lot of information about gachas.

---

If SL had "Non Sequitur" as a last name, I'd buy it.

 

Oh, I got the Russia box from that Crate of Joy thing, I know about that. It costs US $29 per month and goes to my son and his wife. They like it, it's ok, the stuff in it is, oh, adequate. But I could have given them Joy with just one Crate that maybe I made up, rather than subscribe to this thing which at least keeps a Russian woman alive during COVID with her small business. I think to access the platform of the CrateJoy people she has to pay far too big a cost, i.e. they take a big chunk out of each joycrate -- my son has this with his photography business, oh, boy, do you have to shop around to find places that don't eat all your proceeds

Tofalar is my Gatcha Addiction Treatment Center, thank you for mentioning. I usually don't because they don't want you to flog your own wares here. It has lots of information for how you can either play gatcha more sensibly with less damage, go moderation mainteance, or quit cold turkey.

I'm just relieved that where this ghastly thread is rn, no one seems to want Josh Hawley to rescue them with his DEAD bill.

 

[Arielle Popstar]

1 hour ago, FairreLilette said:

That is how the English word "Gacha" got it's name though from the Gashapons.

Meh I think it came from the word Gotcha!!

It even sounds the same.

[JanuarySwan]

15 minutes ago, Arielle Popstar said:

Meh I think it came from the word Gotcha!!

It even sounds the same.

I added into my post above.  This is possible because I think this pay to progress thing is like a scam.  Some of this loot box stuff is not transparent and more like a scam.  That's my additional 2 cents.  I sense scam in some of these loot box practices.   Fake tattoos in real life are a total waste of money as they don't work.

Edited March 5, 2021 by JanuarySwan

[Drayke Newall]

9 hours ago, Finite said:

 Me playing gacha in SL to complete a set for something I do not NEED but only WANT not pay to win.

You seem adamant that the legislation being passed is all about pay to win mechanics. It is not. It is specifically the nature and mechanics of ANY lootbox resembling gambling. That is to say, you pay a dollar amount for a box FOR A CHANCE (GAMBLE) on a prize. No law proposed by any government that has been passed or looked into to restrict loot boxes links loot boxes and pay to win together and those that mention both clearly separate them as different things. Can read all about it here and quotes from the Belgium commission as to how they came to their decision Belgium Says Loot Boxes In Games Like Overwatch Are Illegal (kotaku.com.au). No where does it say pay to win is a requirement - read the comments as well for gamers perspectives.

9 hours ago, Finite said:

Gamers in an MMO would have a differing opinion considering gachas are pay to win in the type of games they play. It's not the same gacha in SL. Since there's no winning to advance in the game. It's just a different way of buying the same things you do.

I am both. I play games and also play SL and there is no difference. I will break it all down so you can tell us all how they are different and let me repeat myself, Overwatch loot boxes are BANED in countries that have passed laws regarding loot boxes being gambling IF AND ONLY IF the loot box has to be purchased with RL money by buying a virtual currency. Loot boxes dropping freely and can be opened freely are not banned.

Game Loot box

This is what is contained in an overwatch loot box - Keep in mind all items are cosmetic and not pay to win:

Player Icons, Emotes, Skins, Sprays, Voice Lines, Voice Lines, Victory Poses, Highlight Intro's or in game currency (credits) if a duplicate is found.

These are the chances of an overwatch loot box:

A Rare item or above is included in every box.
An Epic item is included in about 18.5% of all boxes.
A Legendary item is included in about 7.5% of all boxes.
A Rare Victory Pose is included in about 23% of all boxes.
A Rare Skin is included in about 30% of all boxes.
A Rare Player Icon is included about 48% of all boxes.

You pay $0.99 USD for each loot box and what is contained in those loot boxes are known before buying through patch notes and wiki's Loot Box | Overwatch Wiki | Fandom.

If you get a duplicate you get credits returned.

SL Gacha

This is what is contained in a gacha - for this example I will make my own based on a scifi medical scene theme:

chair, microscope, medical bed, wall partition, nurse dress, nurse hat, gloves, plant, surgery light, surgical tools and table and the medical room

These are the chances of a the Sci-Fi Medical gacha:

A Common item or above is included in every box.
Common has a 90% chance
Rare has a 48% chance
Super rare has a 20% chance
Legendary has a 7% chance

You pay $0.99 USD for each attempt and what can be obtained in the gacha is known before buying via a picture somewhere in the store or on the gacha machine

If you get a duplicate you can sell it for the same or more on marketplace.

The only difference between the Overwatch loot box and my brand new forum made Sci-Fi Medical gacha is that the Overwatch loot box contains 4 items upon opening whereas the SL gahca contains only one item.

So please enlighten us all how Overwatch Loot boxes allow a player via loot box purchase to "win to advance in the game" when they are all cosmetic and because you wont be able to please tell us how a gacha is different than the banned overwatch loot box when your so called pay to win argument is removed.

[Prokofy Neva]

4 hours ago, Drayke Newall said:

You seem adamant that the legislation being passed is all about pay to win mechanics. It is not. It is specifically the nature and mechanics of ANY lootbox resembling gambling. That is to say, you pay a dollar amount for a box FOR A CHANCE (GAMBLE) on a prize. No law proposed by any government that has been passed or looked into to restrict loot boxes links loot boxes and pay to win together and those that mention both clearly separate them as different things. Can read all about it here and quotes from the Belgium commission as to how they came to their decision Belgium Says Loot Boxes In Games Like Overwatch Are Illegal (kotaku.com.au). No where does it say pay to win is a requirement - read the comments as well for gamers perspectives.

I am both. I play games and also play SL and there is no difference. I will break it all down so you can tell us all how they are different and let me repeat myself, Overwatch loot boxes are BANED in countries that have passed laws regarding loot boxes being gambling IF AND ONLY IF the loot box has to be purchased with RL money by buying a virtual currency. Loot boxes dropping freely and can be opened freely are not banned.

Game Loot box

This is what is contained in an overwatch loot box - Keep in mind all items are cosmetic and not pay to win:

Player Icons, Emotes, Skins, Sprays, Voice Lines, Voice Lines, Victory Poses, Highlight Intro's or in game currency (credits) if a duplicate is found.

These are the chances of an overwatch loot box:

A Rare item or above is included in every box.
An Epic item is included in about 18.5% of all boxes.
A Legendary item is included in about 7.5% of all boxes.
A Rare Victory Pose is included in about 23% of all boxes.
A Rare Skin is included in about 30% of all boxes.
A Rare Player Icon is included about 48% of all boxes.

You pay $0.99 USD for each loot box and what is contained in those loot boxes are known before buying through patch notes and wiki's Loot Box | Overwatch Wiki | Fandom.

If you get a duplicate you get credits returned.

SL Gacha

This is what is contained in a gacha - for this example I will make my own based on a scifi medical scene theme:

chair, microscope, medical bed, wall partition, nurse dress, nurse hat, gloves, plant, surgery light, surgical tools and table and the medical room

These are the chances of a the Sci-Fi Medical gacha:

A Common item or above is included in every box.
Common has a 90% chance
Rare has a 48% chance
Super rare has a 20% chance
Legendary has a 7% chance

You pay $0.99 USD for each attempt and what can be obtained in the gacha is known before buying via a picture somewhere in the store or on the gacha machine

If you get a duplicate you can sell it for the same or more on marketplace.

The only difference between the Overwatch loot box and my brand new forum made Sci-Fi Medical gacha is that the Overwatch loot box contains 4 items upon opening whereas the SL gahca contains only one item.

So please enlighten us all how Overwatch Loot boxes allow a player via loot box purchase to "win to advance in the game" when they are all cosmetic and because you wont be able to please tell us how a gacha is different than the banned overwatch loot box when your so called pay to win argument is removed.

So you keep missing the pertinent point that unlike these other games' lootboxes, SL gatchas can be RE-SOLD! 

So if the original motivation for legislation is to prevent, especially children, from losing money and getting into debt, then it's hard to claim such severe losses in a setting where you can sell the gatchas to make back what you spent, sometimes many times over with a rare.

[Finite]

7 hours ago, Drayke Newall said:

You seem adamant that the legislation being passed is all about pay to win mechanics. It is not. It is specifically the nature and mechanics of ANY lootbox resembling gambling. That is to say, you pay a dollar amount for a box FOR A CHANCE (GAMBLE) on a prize. No law proposed by any government that has been passed or looked into to restrict loot boxes links loot boxes and pay to win together and those that mention both clearly separate them as different things. Can read all about it here and quotes from the Belgium commission as to how they came to their decision Belgium Says Loot Boxes In Games Like Overwatch Are Illegal (kotaku.com.au). No where does it say pay to win is a requirement - read the comments as well for gamers perspectives.

I am both. I play games and also play SL and there is no difference. I will break it all down so you can tell us all how they are different and let me repeat myself, Overwatch loot boxes are BANED in countries that have passed laws regarding loot boxes being gambling IF AND ONLY IF the loot box has to be purchased with RL money by buying a virtual currency. Loot boxes dropping freely and can be opened freely are not banned.

Game Loot box

This is what is contained in an overwatch loot box - Keep in mind all items are cosmetic and not pay to win:

Player Icons, Emotes, Skins, Sprays, Voice Lines, Voice Lines, Victory Poses, Highlight Intro's or in game currency (credits) if a duplicate is found.

These are the chances of an overwatch loot box:

A Rare item or above is included in every box.
An Epic item is included in about 18.5% of all boxes.
A Legendary item is included in about 7.5% of all boxes.
A Rare Victory Pose is included in about 23% of all boxes.
A Rare Skin is included in about 30% of all boxes.
A Rare Player Icon is included about 48% of all boxes.

You pay $0.99 USD for each loot box and what is contained in those loot boxes are known before buying through patch notes and wiki's Loot Box | Overwatch Wiki | Fandom.

If you get a duplicate you get credits returned.

SL Gacha

This is what is contained in a gacha - for this example I will make my own based on a scifi medical scene theme:

chair, microscope, medical bed, wall partition, nurse dress, nurse hat, gloves, plant, surgery light, surgical tools and table and the medical room

These are the chances of a the Sci-Fi Medical gacha:

A Common item or above is included in every box.
Common has a 90% chance
Rare has a 48% chance
Super rare has a 20% chance
Legendary has a 7% chance

You pay $0.99 USD for each attempt and what can be obtained in the gacha is known before buying via a picture somewhere in the store or on the gacha machine

If you get a duplicate you can sell it for the same or more on marketplace.

The only difference between the Overwatch loot box and my brand new forum made Sci-Fi Medical gacha is that the Overwatch loot box contains 4 items upon opening whereas the SL gahca contains only one item.

So please enlighten us all how Overwatch Loot boxes allow a player via loot box purchase to "win to advance in the game" when they are all cosmetic and because you wont be able to please tell us how a gacha is different than the banned overwatch loot box when your so called pay to win argument is removed.

It’s odd that those countries that banned overwatch loot boxes didn’t also ban SL gacha. Or maybe it’s because they aren’t the same. 
 

overwatch loot boxes are bought with real money. Usually by children using their parents credit cards. You can sell items on the auction houses but only for in game currency. The real money you spent is gone for good. Blizzard doesn’t allow real world transactions. 

 As for gaming. I’ve played wow since 2009. SL since 2006. Before SL I played project entropia, now called entropia universe. Before that I played just about every console since Nintendo while they were current. 
 

But that doesn’t matter since we both know that gamer forums are just as full of unintelligible nonsense as SL forums. We being gamers doesn’t make us experts.

so quit pretending to be one because you play (of all things) overwatch.

 

 
 

Edited March 6, 2021 by Finite

[Drayke Newall]

2 hours ago, Finite said:

It’s odd that those countries that banned overwatch loot boxes didn’t also ban SL gacha. Or maybe it’s because they aren’t the same. 

Probably because as I said in my first post in this thread, Linden Lab and second life are a small fish compared to the others, and for the fact they probably are completely unaware of what SL entails or what it has. This would also be the same reason why Guild Wars isn't mentioned in the rulings despite having loot boxes. ArenaNet took the proactive approach by not allowing the loot boxes in Belgium.

By the way I dont play overwatch, I am using that as the example as they were the first to introduce loot boxes into games and it was bought up in this thread by another poster.

As to your 'expert' comment refer to my response to Prokofy below.

3 hours ago, Prokofy Neva said:

So you keep missing the pertinent point that unlike these other games' lootboxes, SL gatchas can be RE-SOLD! 

And you keep on missing the point that it means diddley squat. You have never provided sources arguing your points so I will provide legal ones to refute ALL your arguments.

No where does it say that they were banned because the items cannot be resold within the Belgium, Japan, China etc laws. That is to say it isn't even a factor they consider. All they consider is that, if you are playing a chance game with cash it is gambling.

On the contrary, in October 2020 (last year) Netherlands amended their ruling made previously with the amended October SGR 20/3038 and SGR 20/3905 rulings stating within 7.1 that it is specifically because items obtained from a loot box can be resold for real money makes loot boxes illegal, defined as gambling more so than regular loot boxes that items cannot be sold for.

The Eu has made a report in July 2020 (Loot boxes in online games and their effect on consumers, in particular young consumers (europa.eu) ) on how they are treating it and while like usual they are slow at legislation it is being looked at. In regards to your argument, the below is taken directly from the EU findings report (section 2.2.4) clearly refuting your argument.

Quote

Usually, content gained through loot boxes is linked to the player's account and cannot be traded outside the game. However, sometimes in-game items can be exchanged between players, or converted into in-game currency which, in turn, can be converted into 'platform' money and spent on other games or elsewhere. It is this practice which links loot boxes potentially to gambling as digital rewards might be converted into something of (speculative) real-world value...

As elaborated further in the legal analysis in section 4.2.3, only games in the E-E category could fall within most Member States' legal definition of gambling.

I wont post the table they include in the report (see link above) but the E-E category represents where the item is paid for by real money (including virtual money linked to real money - the Linden Dollar) and can be traded or sold for real cash.

Further to that the document clearly states the following in regards to whether loot box's are gacha's:

Quote

At present, loot boxes are sometimes referred to as 'gacha', acknowledging this origin.

Also refer to section 4.2.3 in that report where it defines the 3 criteria that a loot box needs to have to be defined as gambling. The last criteria when related to the table in 2.2.4 and the E-E category or I-E category that SL gacha's fall into is according to the report 100% gambling - LEGALY defined under member state gambling laws.

The EU report is from July 2020 and therefore recent enough to show that this is still being discussed in governments. Maybe not the USA but everywhere else. Whilst it isnt law in all countries of the EU, many member states are starting to make it so outside of the EU Commision. Also the children aspect means nothing as gambling laws dictate that to legally carry out a gambling game such as a loot box or gacha, that company needs a gambling license of which tech companies cannot obtain.

So there is my evidence and sources arguing that gacha's and loot boxes are defined as gambling, not to mention now illegal in the Netherlands, Belgium and other countries irrespective of whether it is a normal bound to account item loot box or one that its items can be sold for real cash.

I wait with baited breath (that was sarcasm by the way) at your sources refuting the above documentation. I'm sure you will provide some random response, but I highly doubt you can refute court rulings in the Netherlands, Belgium and the EU Commission itself showing that any loot box/gacha is gambling.

Edited March 6, 2021 by Drayke Newall

[Finite]

18 hours ago, Finite said:.

I feel like a lot of these arguments are based on a situation or situations in SL where you saw something you wanted and got upset that you had to play a game to get said item. So you google the term "Gacha" and point to any negative reference to support your anger. Even though those references have no relation to SL gacha. Other than the fact they use the same term "gacha".

[Drayke Newall]

11 minutes ago, Finite said:

18 hours ago, Finite said:

I feel like a lot of these arguments are based on a situation or situations in SL where you saw something you wanted and got upset that you had to play a game to get said item. So you google the term "Gacha" and point to any negative reference to support your anger. Even though those references have no relation to SL gacha. Other than the fact they use the same term "gacha".

I play gacha's all the time actually and regularly attend gacha events for avatar things. All I am saying, like others in this thread is that there is going to be a time when they will be banned under new gambling legislation.

You also clearly didn't read what I wrote or the EU report as it clearly defines the SL gacha as a form of lootbox. But I guess your one of those people that cant accept they may be wrong on something even when shown legal documents defining them the same. If you show me evidence other than "x person has a vendetta against an SL game" I would gladly say I am wrong.

So that said, Ill just not bother anymore just feels like usual in all these threads, hitting my head against a wall.

Edited March 6, 2021 by Drayke Newall

[Orwar]

1 minute ago, Finite said:

18 hours ago, Finite said:

I feel like a lot of these arguments are based on a situation or situations in SL where you saw something you wanted and got upset that you had to play a game to get said item. So you google the term "Gacha" and point to any negative reference to support your anger. Even though those references have no relation to SL gacha. Other than the fact they use the same term "gacha".

   That is your feeling. Repeating it is pretty pointless as you've already made it known, and that it isn't an actual argument.

   That you choose to repeat yourself, using an argument based on emotion rather than any sort of fact, when having plenty of sources of what is happening in terms of actual legislation, is a sign that you simply don't have a proper retort. 

[Finite]

8 minutes ago, Orwar said:

   That is your feeling. Repeating it is pretty pointless as you've already made it known, and that it isn't an actual argument.

   That you choose to repeat yourself, using an argument based on emotion rather than any sort of fact, when having plenty of sources of what is happening in terms of actual legislation, is a sign that you simply don't have a proper retort. 

He has provided nothing but irrelevant references and even lied when he states that they specifically mention “SL gacha”. I’ve already previously stated that there are different types of gacha and a few of them are loot boxes. So if you guys can’t bother to read the full context of a thread or the context of the quotes people make why should I bother reading your wall of tears?

Edited March 6, 2021 by Finite

[Drayke Newall]

2 hours ago, Finite said:

He has provided nothing but irrelevant references and even lied when he states that they specifically mention “SL gacha”. I’ve already previously stated that there are different types of gacha and a few of them are loot boxes. So if you guys can’t bother to read the full context of a thread or the context of the quotes people make why should I bother reading your wall of tears?

I never lied about anything. I NEVER said the report mentioned 'SL gacha' specifically. I used the report to show you that SL gacha's are DEFINED (not named) in that report gambling as defined by the terms that they list constitutes a loot box and gambling.

You never even looked at the report in full, just my response and made a decision based on a few points I brought out.

:EDIT:

Ill post this and lets see if you can argue that SL gacha's are not defined as gambling or a loot box under that EU Commission report (taken from clause 4.2.3):

Quote

Gambling is thus commonly defined as an activity during which:

• a consideration (money or an item of monetary value) is made to participate in the activity; 
• the outcome of the activity is determined fully or partly by chance;
• the participant can win a prize (money or an item of monetary value).

A loot box needs to meet all three requirements before national gambling legislation applies and the national authority can investigate and, if necessary, intervene.

All three of those points are ticked for SL gacha's and the report clearly states in the above that they also are considered loot boxes as they tick all three requirements.

Note it doesn't mention x gacha is excluded. Just three simple points that need to all meet to have ANY device, box, gacha, lucky dip, whatever as a Loot Box AND gambling.

There is no counter argument you can make when the above clause specifically shows the mechanism SL gacha's use are the actual points EU states' own gambling laws define as gambling.

Edited March 6, 2021 by Drayke Newall
deleted last post sentence as clearly it wasnt XD

[Orwar]

Just now, Finite said:

wall of tears?

   My, oh my. 

   You realize that projecting an emotional defeat onto those who argue against you when you're losing an argument is a form of self-deception, and if anything else, merely a petty attempt of invoking an emotional counter-argument in a feeble bid to redirect the focus of the discussion from logos to pathos, because you're aware of the fact that you've already lost that battle.

   I have better things to do with my time than to argue with people with inclinations of such a juvenile rhetoric, so I'll slip back into the backseat; content with the knowledge that the legislative sphere will move along without any hindrance from the likes of yourself. 

[Katohomura]

.

Edited March 6, 2021 by Katohomura

[Finite]

40 minutes ago, Drayke Newall said:

I never lied about anything. I NEVER said the report mentioned 'SL gacha' specifically. I used the report to show you that SL gacha's are DEFINED (not named) in that report gambling as defined by the terms that they list constitutes a loot box and gambling.

You never even looked at the report in full, just my response and made a decision based on a few points I brought out.

:EDIT:

Ill post this and lets see if you can argue that SL gacha's are not defined as gambling or a loot box under that EU Commission report (taken from clause 4.2.3):

All three of those points are ticked for SL gacha's and the report clearly states in the above that they also are considered loot boxes as they tick all three requirements.

Note it doesn't mention x gacha is excluded. Just three simple points that need to all meet to have ANY device, box, gacha, lucky dip, whatever as a Loot Box AND gambling.

There is no counter argument you can make when the above clause specifically shows the mechanism SL gacha's use are the actual points EU states' own gambling laws define as gambling. Not to mention the fact that very clause also shows that meeting all three requirements is named as a loot box.

That is my last post in this thread unless someone goes to the actual effort of posting actual source refuting the EU commissions report.

Using your logic and  comprehension of the text a gumball machine is gambling. You think that refers to SL gacha. I disagree. Leave it at that.

Edited March 6, 2021 by Finite

[Drayke Newall]

12 minutes ago, Finite said:

Using your logic and  comprehension a of the text a gumball machine is gambling. You think that refers to SL gacha. I disagree. Leave it at that.

Utter rubbish.

Firstly, there is no game of chance involved in a gumball machine. You pay for a gumball and are 100% guaranteed to get a gumball. Colour means nothing in regards to the argument either as the reward is the gumball and therefore you always get one. It is not a game of chance.

Secondly, unless that gumball you just received has the form of the Virgin Mary and you sell it on eBay for thousands of dollars, it has absolutely no monetary value once received as a prize.

Considering 2 of the points mentioned in clause 4.2.3 of the report are not ticked, you're gumball manufacture is still safe to create the machine without being liable for gambling laws.

Knowing what you will say next and before you mention it. No, a 'gumball machine like vendor' that gives you a little toy in a ball is also not gambling as the toy does not have immediate significant monetary value. It is worthless unless possibly held for years and even then probably worth less than 1 cent. Therefore one point in that clause isn't ticked so not gambling.

Its like arguing with a teenager. Provide proper sources rather than irrelevant points or don't argue at all.

Edited March 6, 2021 by Drayke Newall

[Katohomura]

.

Edited March 6, 2021 by Katohomura

[Finite]

6 minutes ago, Drayke Newall said:

Utter rubbish.

Firstly, there is no game of chance involved in a gumball machine. You pay for a gumball and are 100% guaranteed to get a gumball. Colour means nothing in regards to the argument either as the reward is the gumball and therefore you always get one. It is not a game of chance.

Secondly, unless that gumball you just received has the form of the Virgin Mary and you sell it on eBay for thousands of dollars, it has absolutely no monetary value once received as a prize.

Considering 2 of the points mentioned in clause 4.2.3 of the report are not ticked, you're gumball manufacture is still safe to create the machine without being liable for gambling laws.

Knowing what you will say next and before you mention it. No, a 'gumball machine like vendor' that gives you a little toy in a ball is also not gambling as the toy does not have immediate significant monetary value. It is worthless unless possibly held for years and even then probably worth less than 1 cent. Therefore one point in that clause isn't ticked so not gambling.

Its like arguing with a teenager. Provide proper sources rather than irrelevant points or don't argue at all.

You are 100% guaranteed a prize in gacha just like a gumball machine. They have 20 or so prizes in them. All of them make up a set. It isn’t just the rare that has value. If you play only to get a rare then yes that is gambling. I’ve stated that already too. But doing this wouldn’t make sense since you have the option of buying off the marketplace if that’s all you want.

anyways, you two enjoy your pretend highroads.

[Drayke Newall]

12 minutes ago, Katohomura said:

You play a gacha. You are 100% guaranteed a prize. There’s usually 20 prizes or so in the gacha. All of them make up a set (box gacha) It isn’t just the rare that is valuable. If someone plays a gacha only for the rare then yes they are gambling (stated this already too). 

That makes absolutely no sense at all.

1. You pay a monetary value to play the SL gacha, first point in clause ticked.
2. You have a chance of getting one of 20 prizes with rares being at a lower chance in a SL gacha, second point in clause ticked.
3. You get a prize that has a value as it can be sold on the SL marketplace for equal worth of the initial payment or more, third point in clause ticked.

There is no difference at all. Being guaranteed a prize has nothing to do with anything.

Lastly, Japan banned what they called 'complete gacha' which is a gacha method whereby you pay to get a chance to win an item prize and the whole point of the gacha was to complete the set. It was banned due to being listed as gambling and predatory. Literally exactly what you have just described.

6 minutes ago, Finite said:

 But doing this wouldn’t make sense since you have the option of buying off the marketplace if that’s all you want.

Which is a moot point as a person still needs to play the gacha so that they are listed on the marketplace.

Edited March 6, 2021 by Drayke Newall

[Finite]

Complete gachaEdit

"Complete gacha" (コンプリートガチャ), also shortened as "kompu gacha"^[9][10] or "compu gacha"^[11] (コンプガチャ), was a monetization model popular in Japanese mobile phone video games until 2012, when it was found to be illegal by Japan's Consumer Affairs Agency. Under complete gacharules, players attempt to "complete" a set of common items at random in a particular loot pool in order to combine them into a rarer item.^[11][10] The first few items in a set can be rapidly acquired but as the number of missing items decreases it becomes increasingly unlikely that redeeming a loot box will complete the set (see coupon collector's problem). This is particularly true if there are a large number of common items in the game, since eventually one single, specific item is required.^[10]

Box gachaEdit

Box gacha is a virtual box of set items with known probabilities. Its popularity grew around the time that the complete gacha controversy was becoming publicized. As items are pulled from the box, the likelihood of receiving the desired item increases since there are fewer items in the box.^[12] It is also possible to pull every item in the box, provided the player is willing to spend enough. For this reason, some players will calculate how much money it would take to ensure they pull the item of their choosing.^[13.       

[Finite]

I think it’s closer to box than complete since the rare is part of the table. It’s nothing to be upset about. 

Edited March 6, 2021 by Finite

[Drayke Newall]

42 minutes ago, Finite said:

I think it’s closer to box than complete since the rare is part of the table. It’s nothing to be upset about. 

It is not closer to the box gacha at all. Read what it says below which I extracted from what you said:

"As items are pulled from the box, the likelihood of receiving the desired item increases since there are fewer items in the box"

This is not how SL gacha's work hence why they are technically as defined in the EU report (based on how they describe to identify a loot box) earlier on. Due to the infinite supply of items in the SL gacha your chances of getting the desired item are always based on the scripted chance. It is NEVER known. You could play 1000 times and never get the item you want or play once and immediately get the item you want.

SL gacha scripts use UUID's in them so there is an unlimited amount in the box.

No Second Life gacha has a specific amount of items within the gacha (like box gacha) that as purchased reduces the amount of items in that gacha therefore increasing your odds.

For example, I make a gacha and place 1000 items in it. A person comes along and plays twenty rounds, wins the prize and then the number of items in the gacha drops to 980. This means that the next person that comes along has a greater chance of getting a prize as there are fewer items in the box. That is box gacha.

:EDIT:

Complete gacha is almost similar to SL Gacha but not quite as with complete gacha you collect items or coupons to complete the rare and so suffers from Coupon collector's problem - Wikipedia.

SL gacha due to offering unlimited supply and based on common, rare, super rare, epic, legendary etc all with their own predetermined odds (per the script) is exactly how loot boxes are scripted in games.

All of this is a moot point with regards to the EU report and what they have said defines a loot box and gambling. Belgium law states if you pay to play a game and that game is based on chance it is gambling. Netherlands law simply adds that it is gambling if you can sell the prize after. EU report references both.

Edited March 6, 2021 by Drayke Newall

[Finite]

46 minutes ago, Drayke Newall said:

It is not closer to the box gacha at all. Read what it says below which I extracted from what you said:

"As items are pulled from the box, the likelihood of receiving the desired item increases since there are fewer items in the box"

Besides that one line box is exactly what it is.

 

1 hour ago, Finite said:

Under complete gacharules, players attempt to "complete" a set of common items at random in a particular loot pool in order to combine them into a rarer item.

you don’t combine commons to make a rare. The rare is part of the same loot pool.

[Drayke Newall]

Just now, Finite said:

Besides that one line box is exactly what it is.

It doesn't matter. That one line is what defines it as a box gacha. If SL's gacha doesn't have the same mechanism it isn't box gacha. The mechanisms that SL gacha have are IDENTICAL to loot boxes. I have provided the report that defines them as such so you can accept that or not. I don't care anymore.

Additionally, it doesn't matter as box gacha and all those gacha's in that wiki article still rely on chance. Only difference is that your chance either increases or you get to reroll. In my example you have a 1 in 1000 chance of getting 'x' item. You are getting hung up on things that don't matter. What matters is exactly what that EU report shows and I don't know why you cant see that, that is:

If you pay with real cash to play a game of chance that gives a reward (and in Netherlands that reward can be sold for RL cash) it is defined as gambling no matter what form of gacha, loot box etc it takes. That is what the EU report, Netherland law as well as Belgium and others state.

It isn't my interpretation, nor is it just me saying that. It is clearly defined in black and white in that EU report I linked of which they also provide at the end of the document all the sources to back it up.

Just now, Finite said:

you don’t combine commons to make a rare. The rare is part of the same loot pool.

I know how SL gacha works thank you very much, I was talking about complete gacha mechanisms. Anyway, it doesn't matter. It is still a game of chance you pay for and get a prize at the end that has monetary value or not depending on which country you are.

Repeating over and over the same thing trying to refute what I posted when none of your points have refuted it, doesn't change that fact.

You're not bringing up anything to refute what I have posted so I will take that as you have no source or evidence to the contrary of what I have posted so wont be responding anymore to your posts until you do. Its late where I am anyway so i'm off.