Problem with Gamers/Game Developer

[Sadira Desideri]

There's a game in SL based on the battle between Good and Evil, involving angelic and demonic players. (Not naming names!)  The issue I'm having is this:  I sublease a full sim. I rent a single, 1/4 sim parcel out to some very good friends who play this game. The rest of the sim is mine. Split into 3 parcels I use for 3 different things. Home, group hangout, and a business.

I have an open door policy on my personal parcel and the hangout parcel due to the nature of another social game I play, and I am the leader of a very large group in it. The members can come see me any time. This has never been an issue before.  But now I'm finding people I don't know and never heard of, all over my home parcel, as well as the other parcels. They are players of the game mentioned above. They have the groups and info in their profiles. They are trying to attack the tenants (who have put up security and access parameters to keep them off.) I've been yelled at and verbally abused when I ask people why they are at my home.  When I ask them to please stop using my land that I pay for to harass my tenants within that game, I get the "fight club" attitude. They deny deny deny, even though they have the groups. They get verbally abusive with me in some cases.

I have tried contacting the game creators about designating my sim as a "safe zone" so they know not to launch attacks there. Therein lies the problem. The only thing I've gotten back, despite numerous attempts, is a notecard that basically states "safe zone" status will only be given to sims owned by the person asking for the safe zone status, and even then ONLY if that person is in the system. So you have to be actually playing this game to be able to request safe zone status. Their reasoning is "Non-players are not affected in any way, as all actions take place through the game system, and not physically. " So, for example, a player from one side can be a DJ, busy at work at a club, and a group from the other side can come in and attack them, and nobody around will be the wiser. While that's all well and good, and players know this can happen, I disagree with the "non players not being affected" statement.

Because of the game developers lack of consideration for non-players in not allowing us to decide if we want this on our land, I now spend approximately 2 hours a week reasoning with people, arguing with people, getting verbally abused by people I don't even know, and updating ban lists on 3 parcels. The really abusive ones have been reported to Voodoo as griefers. I've been on this sim 7 years without problem. In the past 8 weeks, the problems have been endless and all due to this one game. I've had to spend money for security orbs, and adjust my way of doing things because of people with no regard for the property and privacy of others. And it starts with the game developers. In my opinion, the general attitude of a group is a direct reflection of the general attitude of the leaders. As long as the leaders consider non-players as nobody worth showing any consideration to, this abuse will continue. I don't think I should be coerced into "drinking their kool-aid" just to get my home sim designated as a safe zone. The "doesn't affect non players" attitude is absolutely false.  Its affected me by people coming onto my land with their voice on, music blaring, talking about how they are going to "take down those demons." I've found people inside my house, at my games tables, lounging around on my furniture, and being abusive to me when asked to leave. Or yelling at me via instant message when I simply eject them.

Is anyone else having this issue?  I don't think its fair that they try to coerce and bully you into joining their game just so you don't have to deal with the game players. That would then put me on the radar of their players when I'm around the grid in other places.  My tenants, who, as I already stated are very close friends, are absolutely mortified this is going on. They don't go onto other people's land, they simply play based on who they encounter around the grid. Most of the gamers are good people who respect other people's rights. But a few problem children are really making life miserable for me. 

I think the developers should be forced to respect privacy by allowing non-players to have their land designated as a safe zone.   I'd appreciate opinions on this!

 

 

 

[Fionalein]

Looks like those "angels" finally show their faces,...

By the way this:

3 hours ago, Sadira Desideri said:

"Non-players are not affected in any way, as all actions take place through the game system, and not physically. "

is not true. They constantly "attack" non players and your name is stored in a victims database. There is no opt in, not even an opt out like with Bloodlines' garlic... 

In their eyes we non players are but their toys to play with. They know no save zones and no break from the game, you are always in.

Their is only one solution: ban them as soon as they reveal themselves (all of them, if your DJ turns out to be one ban him too) and move your club 30 meters from your parcel border so they cannot reap you and your customers.

Edited February 24, 2019 by Fionalein

[Qie Niangao]

You're probably right about this game. I mean, it sounds like it, but I kinda needed to get a grasp on the details for myself, so I visited the region. (I figured it's open for business and these groups and games and stuff, so can't really be a problem for privacy.)

I'm afraid I don't have any brilliant insights about the game, but while I was there, I noticed the script times were pretty bad, with only about 2/3 of scripts getting a shot at running each frame. If this is a recent thing, and if it's adding any discomfort (like, making it hard to operate HUDs for adjusting avatars, etc.), you should be aware that the "Progeny Valentines Keepsake 2019" items -- I saw at least five of them near (72, 32, 3486) -- each use about 60 μsec every frame and appear to be recent additions. Much worse, though, are all the items on the Krafties platform at 57, 188, 1400 -- although individually they're 20 to about 100 μsecs, there are dozens of them, so that's where the script time is going -- but I expect that's kind of steady-state, not a recent addition. Finally, a surprisingly big win will result if you can convince them to turn off the blossom-shedding of the "::TWL:: Sakura Tree" at 96, 50, 24 because each falling petal is a separate temp-rezzed scripted physical object, and that's a whole lot of script-starting going on there (as well as some physics).

The quarter sim with that game has an extraordinarily aggressive "security" script, so I couldn't check everything I wanted to see there (especially whatever the heck is going on at about 1013 altitude), but they do have the parcel set for group-only access (and with "privacy" so folks outside the parcel can't see or chat with folks on the parcel, and vice versa), and they also have a list of folks who can always access the land regardless of group membership. The reason I looked at this is the idea you could have your own security system covering the other parcels that automatically warns and ejects only those folks with the group active that lets them on that game parcel. I'm just not sure how effective that would be. I've never tried actually doing that, but we have only relatively recently gotten the ability to tell the active group of another avatar even if it's not the same group as the script. So it would be possible, just not sure if anybody does it, nor if it would be useful in this case -- or ever, really.

[ETA: To be clear, the script can only detect the avatar's active group, and land access is afforded by mere group membership, so that's one obvious way this could be ineffective.]

But... with group-restricted access already on that game parcel... all the visitors must be members of that group, so they wouldn't just be random game players, which confuses me because the tenants must have kinda-sorta "invited" the troublemakers by letting them join their parcel land group (or, less likely, adding them to the always-allowed list).

Edited February 24, 2019 by Qie Niangao

[So Whimsy]

I am sorry you are going through this, especially the being abused part.

But I must ask since you mention that it's friends of yours that run that parcel with the game; have you talked to them about what you are experiencing? What was their reaction?

If they didn't take you seriously, played it down or generally were brushing you off I would strongly consider evaluating your friendship status. Real friends don't put their friends through crap like that. They would either find another use for their 1/4 sim or move to another sim entirely.

[Sadira Desideri]

2 hours ago, Syn Anatine said:

I am sorry you are going through this, especially the being abused part.

But I must ask since you mention that it's friends of yours that run that parcel with the game; have you talked to them about what you are experiencing? What was their reaction?

If they didn't take you seriously, played it down or generally were brushing you off I would strongly consider evaluating your friendship status. Real friends don't put their friends through crap like that. They would either find another use for their 1/4 sim or move to another sim entirely.

They are taking it very seriously, and they are deeply mortified that this is going on. They do not play in the way that these abusive players do. They don't go to sims actively hunting people etc. We have been friends for a long time, and they havev given me names of people who have tried to get on their land. The "angels" doing the attacking USUALLY figure out that their parcel is restricted, and leave. But sometimes they hang around and see if they can get close enough to it via the other 3 parcels, to try to attack them. I guess they have to be within 20 meters.  My thought is the actual game developers should be voodoo blacklisted as griefers. They would sort their "safe zone" issues really fast if they couldn't get around SL freely. Its more of a question of suggestions for how I can get the devs to safezone my sim without being coerced into joining their game that I have zero interest in.

 

[Sadira Desideri]

6 hours ago, Qie Niangao said:

You're probably right about this game. I mean, it sounds like it, but I kinda needed to get a grasp on the details for myself, so I visited the region. (I figured it's open for business and these groups and games and stuff, so can't really be a problem for privacy.)

I'm afraid I don't have any brilliant insights about the game, but while I was there, I noticed the script times were pretty bad, with only about 2/3 of scripts getting a shot at running each frame. If this is a recent thing, and if it's adding any discomfort (like, making it hard to operate HUDs for adjusting avatars, etc.), you should be aware that the "Progeny Valentines Keepsake 2019" items -- I saw at least five of them near (72, 32, 3486) -- each use about 60 μsec every frame and appear to be recent additions. Much worse, though, are all the items on the Krafties platform at 57, 188, 1400 -- although individually they're 20 to about 100 μsecs, there are dozens of them, so that's where the script time is going -- but I expect that's kind of steady-state, not a recent addition. Finally, a surprisingly big win will result if you can convince them to turn off the blossom-shedding of the "::TWL:: Sakura Tree" at 96, 50, 24 because each falling petal is a separate temp-rezzed scripted physical object, and that's a whole lot of script-starting going on there (as well as some physics).

The quarter sim with that game has an extraordinarily aggressive "security" script, so I couldn't check everything I wanted to see there (especially whatever the heck is going on at about 1013 altitude), but they do have the parcel set for group-only access (and with "privacy" so folks outside the parcel can't see or chat with folks on the parcel, and vice versa), and they also have a list of folks who can always access the land regardless of group membership. The reason I looked at this is the idea you could have your own security system covering the other parcels that automatically warns and ejects only those folks with the group active that lets them on that game parcel. I'm just not sure how effective that would be. I've never tried actually doing that, but we have only relatively recently gotten the ability to tell the active group of another avatar even if it's not the same group as the script. So it would be possible, just not sure if anybody does it, nor if it would be useful in this case -- or ever, really.

[ETA: To be clear, the script can only detect the avatar's active group, and land access is afforded by mere group membership, so that's one obvious way this could be ineffective.]

But... with group-restricted access already on that game parcel... all the visitors must be members of that group, so they wouldn't just be random game players, which confuses me because the tenants must have kinda-sorta "invited" the troublemakers by letting them join their parcel land group (or, less likely, adding them to the always-allowed list).

The only parcel with a business is the one with the auction. The krafties platform is at my  "home" parcel, and I have it up high so scripts don't bother others. The third parcel is my TE kingdom hangout. I'm not sure what the progeny valentine items are....I'm guessing that's over on my tenant's parcel, but I'm going to take a look.  I turned off my voodoo for the moment because I honestly try to keep an open door policy with my kingdom, and have to add every one of them to the whitelist to accomplish that, which would take probably take an entire day or longer to go through the entire group. And all three of my parcels are in my name but under different groups, and I haven't had time to figure out how to have my voodoo system work for all three parcels at the same time, since it needs  to be set to the same group as the land. I guess i need to get 2 more voodoos for the other parcels.

To be clear, the problem isn't lag, but aggressive A&D players who think its their right to use unrelated parcels unowned by their targets to attack said targets. The biggest problem is that the game developers refuse to let landowners get safe zone status UNLESS they join the game. I'm kinda wishing the voodoo people would griefer blacklist the game developers. I bet the safe zone restrictions would be fixed really fast if that were the case.

[Sadira Desideri]

Oh, and to clarify, I set my home parcel to group only whenever I am going offline. I re-open access when I am back online. I've had to waste time and modify my SL habits to revolve around the lack of consideration of others. 

[Solar Legion]

A few things:

1. The system you're using as security has a checkered past which includes blacklisting users the creator doesn't like - among other problems.
2. Setting a scripted object at a higher altitude does nothing to combat script induced lag.
3. So far as I know, no matter the security system, you're going to need more than one. Don't want the hassle of setting up lists for several of them? Get one that has copy permission and set up the lists on one of them, pick it up, rez that same one you just picked up back out and set the group again. Now you have a copy in your inventory that has a complete list.
   1. Don't want the hassle of having to do this again if you need to update the lists? There's bound to be a better solution than the system you're using.
   2. Prioritize getting this set up - you won't need to set your home to group only every time you log out then.
4. Consider setting script use on the affected parcels to Group Only if things do not improve.

[Sadira Desideri]

27 minutes ago, Solar Legion said:

A few things:

1. The system you're using as security has a checkered past which includes blacklisting users the creator doesn't like - among other problems.
2. Setting a scripted object at a higher altitude does nothing to combat script induced lag.
3. So far as I know, no matter the security system, you're going to need more than one. Don't want the hassle of setting up lists for several of them? Get one that has copy permission and set up the lists on one of them, pick it up, rez that same one you just picked up back out and set the group again. Now you have a copy in your inventory that has a complete list.
   1. Don't want the hassle of having to do this again if you need to update the lists? There's bound to be a better solution than the system you're using.
   2. Prioritize getting this set up - you won't need to set your home to group only every time you log out then.
4. Consider setting script use on the affected parcels to Group Only if things do not improve.

I wasn't even talking about script lag. Someone who visited the sim brought it up. My issue is how the A&D devs refuse to safe-zone any land not owned by a game player. I don't play their game, therefore my issues with a few of their players are beneath their notice. They don't care about non-players because in their opinion, "non players are not affected by the game." I don't know why or how script induced lag became part of my issue, as it was not part of the original post. Someone else brought it up, and I was just clarifying that my issue had nothing to do with lag. It has to do with a game that allows players to disrespect people's privacy and refuses to restrict them. All I asked for was to have my sim designated as a safe zone. Nope. No can do. I don't play their game.  And I won't be coerced or bullied into joining a game that's already caused me so much annoyance just to get my land safe-zoned. That's flat out mob-style protection they are asking for. And if I WERE to join their game? And get my safe zone? The second i step off my sim, I'm a target.   Please forget the lag issue. My issue is with just hoping enough people agree with me that we can get A&D devs to change their safe zone policy to include non-player's sims, since we ARE actually affected by this game.

[Solar Legion]

This is a public forum, the issue was brought up as an aside and you responded. Clarification information has been given concerning your response.

[Skell Dagger]

I thought something sounded familiar...

 

[Sadira Desideri]

1 minute ago, Skell Dagger said:

I thought something sounded familiar...

 

That's the game. And coincidentally, a name I recognize, but one of the ones that's been friendly, communicative and reasonable. Most have been nightmares to deal with. She was sympathetic with my situation and agreed the devs should be more open to non-player safe zones.

[Qie Niangao]

1 hour ago, Sadira Desideri said:

The "angels" doing the attacking USUALLY figure out that their parcel is restricted, and leave. But sometimes they hang around and see if they can get close enough to it via the other 3 parcels, to try to attack them.

Oh! Thanks for that clarification -- it explains why the tenants' land is restricted but you're still having the problem. That's a mighty aggressive "game" to bring people out hunting opponents in their home sims. (Admittedly, I went stalking your home parcel, but... I was playing a nicer game. 😇 ) Anyway, the thing I mentioned about a security script to kick & ban everybody belonging to the tenants' land group is obviously irrelevant, now that I understand better what's going on.

One quick thing further about the lag tangent*: Although I was measuring simple script time, which is a kind of lag that affects the sim uniformly, it's also true that scripted critters cause a localized viewer lag due to the volume of object updates they send over the network to viewers that have them in scene. All of which is to say that you're wise to keep them up out of the way as you do: it won't affect that uniform script lag, but it does help with viewer lag. 

1 hour ago, Sadira Desideri said:

Oh, and to clarify, I set my home parcel to group only whenever I am going offline. I re-open access when I am back online. I've had to waste time and modify my SL habits to revolve around the lack of consideration of others. 

It's a shame there's no scripting function for automatically changing parcel access settings for when the authorized user is present or absent. (The same for the "privacy" inter-parcel visibility/chat setting.) But there's not, so that adds to the aggravation these game players inflict.

I wish I knew a way to help add pressure on these game devs to at least allow any landowner to designate their land off-limits to the game. I can see that it truly diminishes the value of Land, something the Lab indeed cares about, and hence something on which a flood of well-argued Abuse Reports against those game devs just might have some effect.

___________________
* Sorry 'bout that, but I'm a scripter snooping around, and it's hard for me not to notice things.

[BilliJo Aldrin]

The whole point is if you are not in the game you have no awareness if angels are purifying you or if demons are corrupting you. My good demon friend started playing, scanned me and said, "oh an angel has blessed you, well I'll take care of that", and he corrupted me. 

Like so what? Corrupt away.

 

[KanryDrago]

37 minutes ago, BilliJo Aldrin said:

The whole point is if you are not in the game you have no awareness if angels are purifying you or if demons are corrupting you. My good demon friend started playing, scanned me and said, "oh an angel has blessed you, well I'll take care of that", and he corrupted me. 

Like so what? Corrupt away.

 

sorry billie jo have to disagree with you here. This is the same as a friend uploading a photo of you and tagging you on facebook. You didnt want facebook to know anything about you but now it does. Same here you didnt want this gamesystem to know about you but now it does. Just like facebook we hear the same arguments it doesnt affect you....till it does just like facebook does now even if you never had an account there

 

[Zeta Vandyke]

47 minutes ago, BilliJo Aldrin said:

The whole point is if you are not in the game you have no awareness if angels are purifying you or if demons are corrupting you. My good demon friend started playing, scanned me and said, "oh an angel has blessed you, well I'll take care of that", and he corrupted me. 

Like so what? Corrupt away.

 

I think the issue here is not the game itself, its the verbal abuse and home invasion of the players towards people not even in the game

[Fionalein]

5 hours ago, Qie Niangao said:

I wish I knew a way to help add pressure on these game devs to at least allow any landowner to designate their land off-limits to the game. I can see that it truly diminishes the value of Land, something the Lab indeed cares about, and hence something on which a flood of well-argued Abuse Reports against those game devs just might have some effect.

True, basically your average 512 just isn't save of them no matter what you do.

[BilliJo Aldrin]

1 hour ago, KanryDrago said:

sorry billie jo have to disagree with you here. This is the same as a friend uploading a photo of you and tagging you on facebook. You didnt want facebook to know anything about you but now it does. Same here you didnt want this gamesystem to know about you but now it does. Just like facebook we hear the same arguments it doesnt affect you....till it does just like facebook does now even if you never had an account there

 

If you can show me where they put my picture on facebook saying I was blessed or corrupted, maybe I'll agree with you.

[KanryDrago]

1 minute ago, BilliJo Aldrin said:

If you can show me where they put my picture on facebook saying I was blessed or corrupted, maybe I'll agree with you.

putting your picture on face book isnt corrupting you? But seriously my point is its the same thing, being drawn into the clutches of a database you want nothing to do with and havent chosen to add yourself to.

[BilliJo Aldrin]

1 hour ago, Zeta Vandyke said:

I think the issue here is not the game itself, its the verbal abuse and home invasion of the players towards people not even in the game

Well if players are verbally abusing people or entering private homes, that's really not the game developers problem is it?

The problem is people with a sense of entitlement about being able to do whatever they want wherever they want.

[BilliJo Aldrin]

2 minutes ago, KanryDrago said:

putting your picture on face book isnt corrupting you? But seriously my point is its the same thing, being drawn into the clutches of a database you want nothing to do with and havent chosen to add yourself to.

If someone tags my face on a facebook picture, how is that affecting me in any way whatsoever?

However, everything I myself do on the internet is mined and used by someone. When I was researching my trip to Utah and Arizona, ads for everything you could imagine about those two states started showing up everywhere i went online

Edited February 24, 2019 by BilliJo Aldrin
added stuff

[Zeta Vandyke]

3 minutes ago, BilliJo Aldrin said:

Well if players are verbally abusing people or entering private homes, that's really not the game developers problem is it?

It is because if that is the common behavior of your game's players, it will ruin your games reputation towards potential new players. Its bad business to have hooligans as your representatives. Its also feeling and acting responsible. If you, by just making a statement towards your player base, can at least try to improve their behavior, then why should you not?

[BilliJo Aldrin]

6 hours ago, Qie Niangao said:

Oh! Thanks for that clarification -- it explains why the tenants' land is restricted but you're still having the problem. That's a mighty aggressive "game" to bring people out hunting opponents in their home sims. (Admittedly, I went stalking your home parcel, but... I was playing a nicer game. 😇 ) Anyway, the thing I mentioned about a security script to kick & ban everybody belonging to the tenants' land group is obviously irrelevant, now that I understand better what's going on.

One quick thing further about the lag tangent*: Although I was measuring simple script time, which is a kind of lag that affects the sim uniformly, it's also true that scripted critters cause a localized viewer lag due to the volume of object updates they send over the network to viewers that have them in scene. All of which is to say that you're wise to keep them up out of the way as you do: it won't affect that uniform script lag, but it does help with viewer lag. 

It's a shame there's no scripting function for automatically changing parcel access settings for when the authorized user is present or absent. (The same for the "privacy" inter-parcel visibility/chat setting.) But there's not, so that adds to the aggravation these game players inflict.

I wish I knew a way to help add pressure on these game devs to at least allow any landowner to designate their land off-limits to the game. I can see that it truly diminishes the value of Land, something the Lab indeed cares about, and hence something on which a flood of well-argued Abuse Reports against those game devs just might have some effect.

___________________
* Sorry 'bout that, but I'm a scripter snooping around, and it's hard for me not to notice things.

I guess someone could get rich if they could develop a security orb that detected and banned people according to the huds they were wearing.

Beep Beep Beep... frenis alert... banned

[BilliJo Aldrin]

1 minute ago, Zeta Vandyke said:

It is because if that is the common behavior of your game's players, it will ruin your games reputation towards potential new players. Its bad business to have hooligans as your representatives. Its also feeling and acting responsible. If you, by just making a statement towards your player base, can at least try to improve their behavior, then why should you not?

I'm quite sure the developers put some long winded high sounding passage in their hud notecard that players should always respect the rights of property owners when playing the game.

We see how well that worked.

[Shudo]

Times like these I wish we had a way to detect what HUDs a person was wearing as we can with any other attachment.