Sad that popular places are turning into Experiences with no option to visit without accepting

[Love Zhaoying]

4 minutes ago, Innula Zenovka said:

Depends on the nature of the area using the experience, I think,     

If I'm scripting a Halloween ride, for example, I will most likely use experience perms to sit you in the car and keep you seated until the riide finishes, and if you manage to leave your seat, I'll teleport you direct to the ride's exit, because I don't want people getting out of the cars and wandering around inside the attraction. 

That also helps keeps people from getting lost or stuck in the attraction. That’s happened to me..

[Gabriele Graves]

21 minutes ago, Innula Zenovka said:

I'm sorry, but what you describe is not possible with LSL.   When props rez they can't attach to you without requesting permission to attach.   They can do this either directly -- in which case you see a dialog menu telling you that the item wants to attach -- or indirectly, through an experience, in which case you don't see any dialog messages other than the first one you saw when you joined the experience.

Yes, of course they ask for permission, I didn't say that they didn't, just that it is possible to attach objects once sat without an Experience.

[Gabriele Graves]

5 minutes ago, Innula Zenovka said:

Depends on the nature of the area using the experience, I think,     

If I'm scripting a Halloween ride, for example, I will most likely use experience perms to sit you in the car and keep you seated until the riide finishes, and if you manage to leave your seat, I'll teleport you direct to the ride's exit, because I don't want people getting out of the cars and wandering around inside the attraction. 

If the ride is just one part of the whole attraction?  Should I be forced to take each ride also?  Or would I be allowed to wander around the confines of the park and just admire the build?
If the latter, then I would hope I would not have to accept an Experience to do that.  This is the type of scenario I describe in my OP.

[Garnet Psaltery]

23 minutes ago, Innula Zenovka said:

Depends on the nature of the area using the experience, I think,     

If I'm scripting a Halloween ride, for example, I will most likely use experience perms to sit you in the car and keep you seated until the riide finishes, and if you manage to leave your seat, I'll teleport you direct to the ride's exit, because I don't want people getting out of the cars and wandering around inside the attraction. 

I like wandering off.  If I'm playing a video game I go off the beaten track before taking the obviously intended route.  I like taking my time and seeing things I might otherwise miss.  Sometimes I see unfinished bits of builds and can walk around what might have been planned to be used but was ditched  

[Innula Zenovka]

9 minutes ago, Gabriele Graves said:

Yes, of course they ask for permission, I didn't say that they didn't, just that it is possible to attach objects once sat without an Experience.

Sorry, but we're at cross-purposes.    You wrote earlier, 

Quote

On a side note, there is at least one furniture vendor I buy from that does have furniture which temporarily attaches cups, books, laptops as part of their furniture but this does not require an Experience to work either, just the permission you grant when sitting.

You now seem be saying that, in addition to the permissions you grant when sitting (which are needed to animate your avatar and to change your camera position), the props request permission to attach each time you rez one.    The whole point of experience permissions is to avoid that, since people tend to become impatient at being presented with endless permissions requests.

10 minutes ago, Gabriele Graves said:

If the ride is just one part of the whole attraction?  Should I be forced to take each ride also?  Or would I be allowed to wander around the confines of the park and just admire the build?
If the latter, then I would hope I would not have to accept an Experience to do that.  This is the type of scenario I describe in my OP.

As the scripter, if I want to stop people getting out of the cars and wandering about inside the rides,  I'm going to find it far simpler and more efficient to make people accept the experience for their entire visit to the attraction than to handle circumstances in which someone gets into the ride then, during the ride, leaves the experience, gets out of the car and starts wandering round the ride.     

If I'm scripting it for my own ride, then I'm not going to bother with all that.   I'm going to keep it simple and make visitors accept the experience for the whole of their visit.  If I'm scripting if for someone else, my very strong advice will be that they should do the same rather than pay me extra (I charge hourly, in US$ not L$ except for friends) to spend time introducing unnecessary complications to the script, introducing more things that go wrong, and making it more difficult to maintain than it need be.

[Innula Zenovka]

6 minutes ago, Garnet Psaltery said:

I like wandering off.  If I'm playing a video game I go off the beaten track before taking the obviously intended route.  I like taking my time and seeing things I might otherwise miss.  Sometimes I see unfinished bits of builds and can walk around what might have been planned to be used but was ditched  

Sure.   I understand what you mean.   But just as you can't get out of the cars and wander round behind the scenes in real-life fairground Ghost Trains or the Haunted Mansion at Disneyland,  I don't want you getting out and wandering round inside my halloween ride. 

[Gabriele Graves]

4 minutes ago, Innula Zenovka said:

Sorry, but we're at cross-purposes.    You wrote earlier, 

"On a side note, there is at least one furniture vendor I buy from that does have furniture which temporarily attaches cups, books, laptops as part of their furniture but this does not require an Experience to work either, just the permission you grant when sitting."

You now seem be saying that, in addition to the permissions you grant when sitting (which are needed to animate your avatar and to change your camera position), the props request permission to attach each time you rez one.    The whole point of experience permissions is to avoid that, since people tend to become impatient at being presented with endless permissions requests.

I agree it does look like that at first reading.  Perhaps what I should have wrote to be clearer was:

"On a side note, there is at least one furniture vendor I buy from that does have furniture which temporarily attaches cups, books, laptops as part of their furniture but this does not require an Experience to work either, just the permission you are presented with when sitting."

[Gabriele Graves]

9 minutes ago, Innula Zenovka said:

The whole point of experience permissions is to avoid that, since people tend to become impatient at being presented with endless permissions requests.

Really? can you point me to some evidence of this? because to me this sounds more like an anecdotal justification to do it via Experience.

[Rolig Loon]

3 hours ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

In 2011, I put together an exhibit on representations of sexual violence in SL (to which Maddy alludes, above). It was (indeed, is: to my surprise, it's still there) intended to shock, and includes a great deal of extremely explicit imagery and language, as well as one potentially upsetting interactive element. For that reason, there is a very prominent trigger warning at the entrance to the exhibit.

I have twice created large scale exhibits that deal with human trafficking, each containing components that were deliberately designed to shock or disgust the visitor.  In both cases, we posted warning signs and sent chat warnings to anyone entering the exhibit.  Some of the content of exhibits like that is meant to be disturbing, but we wanted to at least let people know what they were opting in to.  If I ever do that sort of exhibit again, I will be very inclined to use an Experience.  Some of the most disturbing effects are blunted when we have to ask the visitor each time, "Is it OK to teleport you into a dark room now?".   Using an Experience means not having to break the fourth wall repeatedly.  That said, if I created the exhibit again today, I would still keep the warning signs and messages in place at the entrance.  There's a difference between shock and total, unexpected surprise.

Experiences add several valuable features to SL.  In addition to minimizing annoying permission requests that mess up the immersive feel of an exhibit or game, they also let scripters store bits of information ( player scores, tasks completed, objects collected, positions of moveable components, whatever ...) as Key Value Parameters in a LL server so that we can create more complex environments to delight visitors.  Some of those things were always possible, but much more difficult -- or at least more awkward. Others simply could not be done before. 

As with an increasing number of our encounters with technology in RL today, we have to be concerned about the balance between convenience or immersiveness on the one hand and privacy or "control" on the other hand.  That balance is a moving target, made more difficult by the fact that we each have a personal level of comfort and trust.  Personally, I have no worries about accepting an Experience created by Linden Lab ( or LDPW within LL), and few worries about those created by other people.  I can always decide not to opt in to an Experience and can opt out of most, except for a few Linden Lab ones that are grid-wide.  If that's not your own comfort level, then by all means be cautious.  Be as wary as you would be in RL when you walk into a new setting.  Look for warning signs, read chat notices, and ask questions before you decide where you want to go and what permissions you want to grant.

[Love Zhaoying]

1 minute ago, Rolig Loon said:

tasks completed

“Nope, can’t go to the next step until you visit the scary, dark room.”

[Qie Niangao]

9 minutes ago, Gabriele Graves said:

Really? can you point me to some evidence of this? because to me this sounds more like an anecdotal justification to do it via Experience.

Speaking for myself, I've lost all patience with props that ask permission to attach individually. If the creator doesn't use the AVsitter Experience to make that all seamless, I simply ignore the attachment and instead move on to a different pose -- or to different furniture.

[Innula Zenovka]

33 minutes ago, Gabriele Graves said:

Really? can you point me to some evidence of this? because to me this sounds more like an anecdotal justification to do it via Experience.

Unfortunately it would be against ToS for me to share with you all the IMs and conversations in chat I've had with people for whom I'm scripting furniture or recommending animation systems who ask me how to ensure users don't get spammed with endless requests from props to attach to them.

[KT Kingsley]

[Luna Bliss]

[Gabriele Graves]

6 minutes ago, Innula Zenovka said:

Unfortunately it would be against ToS for me to share with you all the IMs and conversations in chat I've had with people for whom I'm scripting furniture or recommending animation systems who ask me how to ensure users don't get spammed with endless requests from props to attach to them.

Well, I wouldn't want you to either and anyway your description sounds more like other people also assuming it will be annoying to others.

Maybe I am missing something but with the furniture I have used, you get one request each time you change anims when the anims are paired with attachments.  Nothing more.  How can this be characterised as "endless requests"?
 

29 minutes ago, Qie Niangao said:

Speaking for myself, I've lost all patience with props that ask permission to attach individually. If the creator doesn't use the AVsitter Experience to make that all seamless, I simply ignore the attachment and instead move on to a different pose -- or to different furniture.

Again I am missing something here.  Can you elaborate why one request per attachment change makes you lose patience?

This is exactly the behaviour I would expect and desire from something wanting to attach itself to my avatar.

[Phorumities]

1 hour ago, Garnet Psaltery said:

I like wandering off.  If I'm playing a video game I go off the beaten track before taking the obviously intended route.  I like taking my time and seeing things I might otherwise miss.  Sometimes I see unfinished bits of builds and can walk around what might have been planned to be used but was ditched  

I often jump off rides before they are finished. I'm not sure what the big deal is or why someone else should be able to force me to sit till the very end.

[Innula Zenovka]

3 minutes ago, Gabriele Graves said:

Maybe I am missing something but with the furniture I have used, you get one request each time you change anims when the anims are paired with attachments. 

One request per attachment each time (so two when you're eating, one for the knife and one for the fork).    I guess it depends on the set of animations and how frequently they use props (and on how patient people are) but certainly in my experience people tend to regard repeated requests to do something as rather irritating (yes, I touched the coffee pot, so of course I want the coffee cup to attach to me!).

[Innula Zenovka]

2 minutes ago, Phorumities said:

I often jump off rides before they are finished. I'm not sure what the big deal is or why someone else should be able to force me to sit till the very end.

Usually when people make rides -- particularly halloween rides -- they design them with a view to how the scenes look to people seated in the cars.   They don't want the scenes to include stray avatars wandering round unexpectedly, and they don't want the avatars getting in the way of the cars or other moving parts.

[Gabriele Graves]

6 minutes ago, Innula Zenovka said:

One request per attachment each time (so two when you're eating, one for the knife and one for the fork).    I guess it depends on the set of animations and how frequently they use props (and on how patient people are) but certainly in my experience people tend to regard repeated requests to do something as rather irritating (yes, I touched the coffee pot, so of course I want the coffee cup to attach to me!).

The ones I have seem to just attach one thing at a time, ie. a fork to eat cake from a plate, a cup, glass or a laptop etc.  I expect they were designed this way to minimize to requests.

[Love Zhaoying]

7 minutes ago, Innula Zenovka said:

Usually when people make rides -- particularly halloween rides -- they design them with a view to how the scenes look to people seated in the cars.   They don't want the scenes to include stray avatars wandering round unexpectedly, and they don't want the avatars getting in the way of the cars or other moving parts.

Plus many scenes only look good if you force the camera to look at the things you intend.

[Gabriele Graves]

2 minutes ago, Love Zhaoying said:

Plus many scenes only look good if you force the camera to look at the things you intend.

It is hard to describe how much I would not want to be forced to look at something, no matter how good it looks.  In any real world ride I have ever been on, I have always had the ability to turn my head in any way I choose.

[Love Zhaoying]

3 minutes ago, Gabriele Graves said:

It is hard to describe how much I would not want to be forced to look at something, no matter how good it looks.  In any real world ride I have ever been on, I have always had the ability to turn my head in any way I choose.

Well, a simple and easy example is the basic funhouse ride. Mouselook is required to enjoy it properly, often. But for other rides, moving your camera for you helps you not miss the thing!

[Gabriele Graves]

Just now, Love Zhaoying said:

Well, a simple and easy example is the basic funhouse ride. Mouselook is required to enjoy it properly, often. But for other rides, moving your camera for you helps you not miss the thing!

"You will have my help and like it, whether you want it or not!"

So what if you miss something the first time?  You ride again. Or maybe you chose to look away from something deliberately?
I already understood the principle and point of why ride makers may want to do this, I simply do not agree that it is necessary.

[Qie Niangao]

20 minutes ago, Gabriele Graves said:

Again I am missing something here.  Can you elaborate why one request per attachment change makes you lose patience?

This is exactly the behaviour I would expect and desire from something wanting to attach itself to my avatar.

I wonder how much you've tried it with the AVsitter Experience enabled. I too was fine with accepting these permissions one at a time until I accepted the Experience, and now anything else just doesn't cut it.

Skipping ahead to camera perms: Although Experiences make controlling the default camera settings somewhat simpler than before, there's nothing new about a script-controlled camera. Ages ago, Torley gave away a handy cam control HUD, seats can initially force the cam into mouselook, or set the seated avatar's camera position and focus even after all scripts are removed. None of these use Experiences and none ask for permissions.

[Gabriele Graves]

5 minutes ago, Qie Niangao said:

I wonder how much you've tried it with the AVsitter Experience enabled. I too was fine with accepting these permissions one at a time until I accepted the Experience, and now anything else just doesn't cut it.

Skipping ahead to camera perms: Although Experiences make controlling the default camera settings somewhat simpler than before, there's nothing new about a script-controlled camera. Ages ago, Torley gave away a handy cam control HUD, seats can initially force the cam into mouselook, or set the seated avatar's camera position and focus even after all scripts are removed. None of these use Experiences and none ask for permissions.

I haven't but I don't have any complaints with the way it works without Experiences.

To be honest I didn't know there was an avsitter Experience.  I thought Experiences had to be enabled on the land to work?  or can they be created for a set of scripts or objects and activated anywhere it is rezzed?

Edited October 18, 2018 by Gabriele Graves
added missing letter