Project Sansar to be Delivered by the End of the Year?

[Rhonda Huntress]

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Nalytha wrote:

I don't want to argue whether SL is a game today. Personally, I think it is and I can't think of many games that let your port your inventory from one to the next generation, ESPECIALLY if the next generation doesn't even share the same series name.

 

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Well, there is World of Warcraft.  With each expansion pack you keep your old gear.  The game version also increments with each expansion.   This is what I believe a lot of people would like to see with SL.  Redo the permissions, add more tools and checks to support IP ownership and protection, add skeletons as build components, let us replace system mesh and not just cover it up but leave the rest as is.  If we lose 5% when cutting away the dead wood, that would be acceptable but the bulk of our content should remain. 

And then there is Everquest and Everquest 2.  This i what SL and Sansar are going to be.  Current residents get first dips on using their existing names but that's about it.  They will be as incompatible as Blackjack and Craps.

[Darrius Gothly]

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Theresa Tennyson wrote:

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Darrius Gothly wrote:

It's just freaking

stupid

to throw away all your existing customers, cherry pick only certain ones while shooing away all the rest .. and completely junk the lessons learned by every software company since techies first began using magnetic donuts to hold Ones and Zeroes.

---

Okay, explain to me - how is not porting

everything

in Second Life now "throwing away all your existing customers"?

---

 (rewinds about 2000 pages and starts over with ... "The Basics of SL" ...)

Everyone now using SL has devoted to them a Personal Inventory. This is nothing more than a database of in-world objects that they have acquired via various means. Many SL Residents have expended lots and lots of real-world money filling their personal Inventory with those objects. This is the seat of my earlier analogy to your clothes closet.

That investment, the investment made to acquire those items? All gone in Sansar. Nada. Don't exist, Won't port. Have to start all over. BTW: Please note that as a male avatar, my personal inventory consists of very few personal items that I paid money to acquire. A few pairs of shoes, a smattering of clothing, some personal niceties. That's it. Skin off my nose to lose all that stuff? Virtually nil. But for many female avatars .. and a lot of males too .. that loss will be immense.

Everyone now using SL also has amongst their Inventory various items that are meant to exist in-world and bring comfort, familiarity or realism to their shared experience. Houses, boats, planes, pictures, pets .. STUFF. The things you rez when you establish a new home or residence, put down roots or just find a place to hang out and socialize with your "family".

In Sansar? All gone.There will be nothing you'd call "yours" at first. What will exist are the items and content created for your "Experience" by the Creators LL has permitted to participate in building and selling their own Worlds.

Your investment in SL will be worthless in Sansar. That's the "functional" disposal portion. Now let's move on to the "operational" disposal.

Many people characterize SL as a "social platform with simulated 3D interaction." Their perception of the platform is that it's a place where folks can dress up as whatever and whomever they wish to be then interact socially with others of the same mindset. This is the foundational paradigm upon which the Sansar model is constructed. It is a very accurate appraisal of a subset of SL participants. It is NOT an accurate description of what SL "is".

Those wishing to engage in this form of virtual cosplay will indeed find Experiences within Sansar that suit them. They will of course have to start over from scratch, but on the upside they will most likely meet new people and find new experiences they did not find in SL. But every one of them will be shaped according to the imaginations and limitations of the Experience Creator.

The vast majority of SL Residents won't find a home there because it will not allow nor permit the free growth, self expression and "limitless imagination' found in SL. It will become a nice place to visit .. much like a museum or art gallery .. but it won't be a home and it won't be a place where people engage in lasting relationships of any kind. ANY kind. That means inter-personal, business, artistic or any other form .. unless they step up to the role of Creator.

Now let's look a bit deeper into that term: Creator.

In SL everyone is a Creator of some ilk. Rez a cube, slap on a fabric texture and Presto! You've become a furniture Creator. Squash the cube flat, change the texture to your favorite in-world snapshot and Voila! You're an art Creator.

But even with this incredibly low bar to being a Creator, in SL a majority of people actually prefer to have others do that kind of thing for them. This leads to an active and very diverse population of Creator/Merchants that make stuff that can be used anywhere on nearly any Sim .. and for pretty much any purpose.

Sansar does away with this community in various ways. But most importantly it raises the bar much higher in the name of ensuring "Quality" ... and at the same time constricts the diversity to only those able and willing to engage in the sophisticated process required to be a certified Creator.

As a very simplified analogy, it will be akin to removing from the Public Library every book not written by authors with approved college degrees in Literature and additionally whatever topic the book is about. This immediately eliminates a massive portion of the existing SL Community from even wanting to participate. They CAN if they want, but it's no longer worth their time or effort. For many, it won't even be within their reach.

As you can see from my TL;DR response, porting of SL content is not just about moving objects from "here" to "there". It's about restricting the function, operation and participation so much that the interested parties remaining will not constitute a viable, income earning population.

Now my final point, and I sincerely hope you listen closely to this part as well.

Linden Lab has kept the full definition of Sansar "top secret" for far too long. They have granted sneak peeks to various wags and scribes. But those few selected have come away feeling as if they've been shown a canned demo or presentation and not really given a tour of what makes Sansar "special".

And they are not wrong. Because Sansar is envisioned as yet another whiz-bang demo of what VR technology can do. NOT what WE can do with it, but as what a tiny subset of skilled, paying artists can accomplish given top-notch tools and a blank canvas upon which to draw.

Because Linden Lab is not being FORCED to create a platform that can support the vast VAST diversity embodied in SL, they will wind up creating a three-dimensional rendition of a flat canvas with pre-approved and canned colors, shapes and experiences.

And that will keep the rest of SL Residents from ever taking up the Dream and carrying it forward into the future.

[wherorangi]

---

Darrius Gothly wrote:

... it seems the population of those "invited" into creating for Sansar has been limited to a very specific subset of Creators that meet certain quality standards. As someone who is very artistically challenged (the stuff I make looks like .. umm ... ugly stuff) this smacks of artificially filtering out those that don't match the personal likes and dislikes of an unknown and invisible Elite ...

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is actual good reasons for why this is. I try to explain

the Sansar criteria was that a person

a) was a expert with Maya (the industry-standard professional content creation toolset)

b) they had time to devote to the project

c) that this project stage is technical design of the world model fundamentals and not artistic design as such

d) that the person has prior experience working on this stage of similar business projects. People with this experience are typically academic researchers and industry professionals expert in the design of content delivery world model systems

basically this is the alpha stage

+

i think that before end this year then it will move to beta, and opened to a large pool of content designers and users/players/testers. In other words open to amateurs and self-employed crafters, grafters and grinders

at which time their content design feedbacks will influence changes to specific components of the model, introduce new tools, improve existing tools, without fundamentally changing the design of the world model delivery system itself

+

the fundamental design of the world model is a business decision, not a artistic one. LL as the business have already determined what that business design/decision is

some of the specific business components have still to be decided on for sure also, if/when/how they might be introduced. The whys of have already been decided tho, in these kinda major business projects

+

basically the last thing you want in the early stages is a whole bunch of amateurs who dont know much about anything

amateurs are better to come in later in the process. A example is the Bento project

i am a amateur in this field. I never got involved in the early design phase of this bc is not my expert field. I left it to the actual experts of this. And they got most of it pretty right

then when I did get involved it was over a specific component. And the technical experts took what I (and others also) said about this specific component, reassessed the technicals of it, and made subsequent changes/adjustments to compensate, without breaking the model design

[ChinRey]

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wherorangi wrote:

+ i think that before end this year then it will move to beta, and opened to a large pool of content designers and users/players/testers. In other words open to amateurs and self-employed crafters, grafters and grinders...

---

That's possible and if that happens, Sansar will fail miserably.

It's time to face the fact that 99.99 percent of the content creators in SL do not have the skills necessary to create content for a high performance virtual reality. It's not about whether they have friends at LL, it's not about what tools they use, it's not about whether they do it for a living or for a hobby, it's not about whether they have any formal education or not. It's simply the fact that most SL content creators - and that includes most of the ones who make a decent living here - don't understand what is required in a high performance environment and how to achieve that.

Look at the SL Viewer section of this forum. People are struggling to get 20 fps out of their GTX 1080 graphics cards. Why? Some of it is of course because of old, geriatric, inefficient software but most of it is because of bloated content.

Sansar needs 90 fps to work with VR headsets and it is simply not possible to achieve that the way we build in Second Life. It is barely possible by building the way professional computer games are built, with strict resource budgets and scenes constructed as a whole right from the start. A high performance virtual reality has to be built with a very simple background, some fairly simple middle ground and a few carefully selected detailed centerpieces. In a typical Second Life scene every single item and every single avatar is desperately fighting to be the centerpiece - it's an orchestra where everybody try to play the solo violin.

This is why I'm confident Second Life will live on for a long time still. There is certainly a need for a place in virtual space where everybody are allowed to build to their heart's content and where aspiring beginners can learn the craft through trial and error. I can't see any other place than Second Life that can fill this need.

[Nalytha]

I don't see expansions to games the same as a completely different game. An expansion to wow is like a big update for Second Life. If there was a World of Warcraft 2, I would not expect to see any overlap.

[Darrius Gothly]

---

wherorangi wrote:

is actual good reasons for why this is. I try to explain

the Sansar criteria was that a person

a) was a expert with Maya (the industry-standard professional content creation toolset)

b) they had time to devote to the project

c) that this project stage is technical design of the world model fundamentals and not artistic design as such

d) that the person has prior experience working on this stage of similar business projects. People with this experience are typically academic researchers and industry professionals expert in the design of content delivery world model systems

basically this is the alpha stage

+

i think that before end this year then it will move to beta, and opened to a large pool of content designers and users/players/testers. In other words open to amateurs and self-employed crafters, grafters and grinders

at which time their content design feedbacks will influence changes to specific components of the model, introduce new tools, improve existing tools, without fundamentally changing the design of the world model delivery system itself

+

the fundamental design of the world model is a business decision, not a artistic one. LL as the business have already determined what that business design/decision is

some of the specific business components have still to be decided on for sure also, if/when/how they might be introduced. The whys of have already been decided tho, in these kinda major business projects

+

basically the last thing you want in the early stages is a whole bunch of amateurs who dont know much about anything

amateurs are better to come in later in the process. A example is the Bento project

i am a amateur in this field. I never got involved in the early design phase of this bc is not my expert field. I left it to the actual experts of this. And they got most of it pretty right

then when I did get involved it was over a specific component. And the technical experts took what I (and others also) said about this specific component, reassessed the technicals of it, and made subsequent changes/adjustments to compensate, without breaking the model design

---

What you describe quite well is what could best be called the "Traditional" approach to product development. It works, it has merit and it has a long track-record of success. If my "issue" was with this process .. I'd be dead wrong.

But this isn't where I have my issue.

When Philip first envisioned Second Life, he had this head full of grand ideas about a Utopian World where everything was free, everything was possible and eventually the rest of the world would catch up technologically and philosophically. We caught up in the Tech sense, mostly caught up in the Philosophic sense .. and pretty much turned his Grand Plan into daily activity.

But it was more than a decade ago that he first tasked his team with making Utopia. Since then the forces of Business, Finance and Reality have been steadily grinding it down, further and further. While not necessarily a "bad thing'', it has had some side-effects that we now see evident in Linden Lab's decision making process.

Virtual Reality .. immersing participants in a simulated world populated with visual simulations of the real-world .. is an incredibly powerful and potentially paradigm-changing technology. Someone with their head just as full of Grand Plans as was Philip could climb out ahead of the pack and create a first use for it that actually demands its tradition-shattering capabilities.

If ever there was a company that should be positioned properly to BE that tradition shatterer .. it is Linden Lab. They stand in the absolutely unique and powerful ground first marked out by Philip's dream. But instead of throwing their goal flag down the field into the fertile ground of the future .. they have once again tossed it a few feet backwards into the Social Interaction puddle defined by Facebook and the like. Oh and they glued a pair of VR goggles on the side.

Yawn!

In many ways the Second Life of today is still miles ahead of what Sansar will be ... what Sansar is DESIGNED to be. SL is even ahead of what Sansar is intended to be.

Linden Lab has staked out a "safe bet" goal, spent a bit over a year working toward making it .. and now seems poised to roll out the first peek at what they charitably call "The Future of VR".

And no one is impressed. Especially not me.

At the risk of trivializing their efforts, it's as if Philip landed a UFO in the Town Square and everyone climbed on board. It couldn't escape Earth orbit and definitely didn't break any speed limits .. but it FLEW just the same. Now the Management at Linden Lab has announced "We've invented a better UFO High-Tech Orbital Transportation Device.. better because it has TWO viewports instead of just one."

Then they slapped flight restrictions on it, confined it to running kids around the city park .. and added some really neat lights on the outside. Hooray?

Many other companies have tried, unsuccessfully, to build their own UFO. Only one company has succeeded. Only one company has the prototype parked in their garage. Only ONE company has the experience, resources and guaranteed passenger list to build the next revision UFO.

And they're gonna give us an amusement ride at Kiddyland ... 

(EDIT: Forgot there are legal ramifications to calling it "better" or a "UFO" .. sowwy)

[Parhelion Palou]

I agree with your post in general but not in a couple of specifics. Sansar isn't a virtual world. It's a framework for running a lot of virtual worlds (which LL calls experiences). Inexperienced builders will only ruin their own experience/world. Companies creating games or whatever in their experiences will use people who know what they're doing (if they're smart).

Sansar uses an optimization step before the experience is published (available for use). That should help, but if there's enough crud going in then I expect the output won't be that good either.

I like building on the fly. I like working with others to build things. SL is good for that. Sansar isn't, and I don't care at all about VR goggles. I hope SL hangs in there a long time.

[Nalytha]

I'm also not impressed. I agree that Sansar is sounding more and more disappointing. I'm not excited. Why should I be? You are right, they are playing it safe. And in so doing, they lose the very spark that made Second Life amazing .... their willingness to dare to be big.

 

My qualms are not the same as yours, but it looks like we can at least agree on this. I've been waiting for the next Second Life for over a decade. The next big thing. I'm starting to think it will never happen. Because if LL won't do it, who will? Sansar would be their moment to shine. But more and more, it sounds like it's just going to be nothing more than immersive advertising.

 

No thanks.

[Paul Hexem]

Here's the thing a lot of people aren't considering when they cry about inventories not carrying over.

Sansar isn't SL2, or an expansion to SL. Just because it's LL, doesn't mean every product has to be compatible with all their other products.

Think of a gaming company like Electronic Arts. They make 3D environments too. Games. They have Battlefield games, Sims games, sports games, and even each category, each new release stands by itself. You can't carry anything across except your username and some little icon that shows that you've accomplished things in the previous incarnation of whatever game you're playing (Which is what it sounds like LL will be doing).

Another good example is Call of Duty. Some of the best selling games of all time, and none are backwards compatible with each other.

LL is just doing what every other game developer has been doing for years. Trying to stay relevant.

[Phil Deakins]

I'm in red.

---

Darrius Gothly wrote:

---

Phil Deakins wrote:

I've noticed in several of your posts that you haven't managed to grasp what Sansar is, OR that SL isn't going anywhere. When you accept the latter, you won't have any more concerns about the advent of Sansar.

---

In fact Phil, quite the opposite is true. I absolutey realize that SL is .. according to the words from Ebbe and LL .. going to continue on as long as it remains profitable. However what I bring to this rodeo is something you may lack; experience with the software development industry. While I may not have actual finger-pounding mileage churing out MMORPG code, I do have rather extensive experience running the front office, running management and .. surprise! helping determine where companies spend their product development dollars.

On the contrary. Back in the 90s, way before SL was born, I wrote a multi-user graphics adventure game and put it online for testing. I was the one who did all the "

finger-pounding mileage churning out code

". Then I went off and did something completely different. That experience is of no use in this discussion, but I just thought I'd inform you on that point.

Second Life as a product has been inscrutable to LL almost since its inception. Philip had some really good ideas of what he thought would sell, he built a team and some fantastic on-ramps .. when suddenly and almost certainly as surprising to him as anyone else ... Ka-BLAM! Second Life caught fire and took off.

His total fail creating a successful venture since is just more lead-balloon proof that he didn't understand the reason for its success any more than any other LL CEO.

To be totally transparent, I'm not sure I have a better idea about the secret sauce either. But I am VERY sure I know what is not in the sauce. Rampant monetization of the customer base, disregard for past successes, and a total disrespect for the voices of the customers are clearly NOT ingredients.

LL's other "blazing successes" using the same principles that have gone into Sansar should prove beyond doubt .. it's a fail on the run. And LL is not the only company to use these ingredients, mixed in massive quantities of investor money, and churned out flops on an epic scale.

But hey, let's not look at the industry or the history of performance of other companies .. that wouldn't be right. Rather we should hold fast to the dream that "the next big thing" is right around the corner. If we just believe .. and all clap our hands .. Tinkerbell will live this time. Surely she has to .. Right?

*coughGagpuke*

Now .. back to Sansar .. shall we?

Sansar is intended to be a new paradigm. A new take on the product niche loosely associated with Virtual Worlds. It is intended to capture the bleeding edge of Virtual Reality interfaces, give it a real reason to exist .. and power it with an economic engine that can run the distance and keep worthy people gainfully employed. Agreed so far?

So far.

Good .. then consider this. That economic engiine depends on fuel provided by customers. But rather than borrow some gas from the SL tank, they've chosen to wall if off completely, design an engine that won't even share the same sort of energy source .. and yet somehow creates a new niche in a market that doesn't even exist yet. And they don't even understand the niche they're in now!

I totally get that Sansar is going to be something new, unseen and untested. The whole freaking IT industry is built on exactly that foundation. But making something new has never EVER required tossing away everything old. Yet that is what LL is doing .. and militantly so to boot.

This is the sort of thing that indicates that you haven't grasped what Sansar is - as far as we currently know. And yet it's been described at least twice in this thread. Sansar isn't a world, any more than a hosting server is a website. Sansar is a system that hosts and supports other people's worlds. You seem to be expecting something very similar to SL, into which you want to be able to move stuff from SL. LL will no doubt produce a basic demo world for people to land in and see the sort of things that can be done, but that won't be a place where users will be able to do what we can do in SL. That's my take on what we've learned so far. You appear to think differently.

 

[...]

It's just freaking

stupid

to throw away all your existing customers, cherry pick only certain ones while shooing away all the rest ..

Why do you suppose LL is making use of people with certain skills? Could it be they are being used to create stuff so that systems can be tested, tweaked, fixed, etc.? Do you suppose that they are being used to create stuff for a small demo world? I think both of those. They are only being cherry-picked, as you put it, inasmuch as they have better creation skills than the average SL user - they make good stuff.

Do you imagine that only that type of skilled user will be able to use anything to do with Sansar? You write as though you imagine it. No SL users are being shooed away. A few are being asked to try and test things out before the rest of the world is let in. That's all. And that, of course, is very good sense.

and completely junk the lessons learned by every software company since techies first began using magnetic donuts to hold Ones and Zeroes.

They were called bi-magnetic cores. I worked with them back in the 60s

---

To be perfectly honest, Darrius, through your posts in this thread, you do sound as though you are miffed because you are not one of those who are helping with Sansar. If you were one of them, I have no doubt that you'd see things wholly differently.

[wherorangi]

---

Darrius Gothly wrote:

When Philip first envisioned Second Life, he had this head full of grand ideas about a Utopian World where everything was free, everything was possible and eventually the rest of the world would catch up technologically and philosophically. We caught up in the Tech sense, mostly caught up in the Philosophic sense .. and pretty much turned his Grand Plan into daily activity.

But it was more than a decade ago that he first tasked his team with making Utopia. Since then the forces of Business, Finance and Reality have been steadily grinding it down, further and further. While not necessarily a "bad thing'', it has had some side-effects that we now see evident in Linden Lab's decision making process.

---

i just come in on this part

from a philosphical pov, in a visionary sense that has a profound effect on the future shaping of the human race, then I will not disagree with the basis of your point

is the kinda thing that sorta goes:

reach for the stars, spend trillions of dollars and hours consuming the efforts of the best and brighest people that the world has to offer, and end up with a mobile phone

can be a little bit disappointing that after all the last 70 years about, then we never got to the stars already. Yet the mobile phone (and apps on it) has changed/shaped the world quite profoundly from each users own unique pov. And for the better I think. Far more so than a handful of astronauts who maybe might have made it to another star somehow

+

what will the future of VR actually be ? We dont know. What we do know tho is that whatever does come out of it will be driven by the choices that the most number of users make, as it benefits them personally

a similar philosophical posit when considering/wondering/searching for big answers. Why is FB so big, and SL so small comparatively ?

the simplist explanation is that more people see an actual personal realworld benefit for themselves in FB. 1.3 billion active users vs 1 million (about). Is a reality this. Might not be great reality, but is what people have chosen for themselves

+

i think also that something that we can sometimes miss when wondering about the future of VR is that people just arent into it

i think is mostly bc people cant see any practical realworld benefit in it for themselves at this time. Other than maybe as a form of entertainment, exotic entertainment even maybe. There might be a practical VR benefit one day, but they dunno what the might be, might be. And nor do the people pioneering this stuff, at this time

in a we dunno what we dunno sense. So just have a go, make something and see what happens

LL in this sense is no different to anyone else. They dunno either, so they just having a go at making something, and what happens will happen. Can be a bit fatalistic this way of doing things. But sometimes there is no other way

+

about Philip Linden

His vision for SL as vehicle for a alternative future for humankind, was over when nobody who was paying the tiers accepted his philosophical view that without conflict there is no life. The people never saw any point or benefit for them in paying for conflict just to live

Philip Linden I think did try to accommodate/resolve this in his own thinking over the next few years. But he gave it up in the end, and walked away from SL, his own creation, as the vehicle to express his own philosophies. I think that he was not able to fully reconcile this with the fact the most number of SL users/people disagreed with him on this pretty fundamental philosophical point, and find happiness/peace in this for himself

i think he realised and came to accept, that we (the users) had changed SL into something other/different than what he had hoped for and envisaged. In a from stars to phone kinda analogy

+

i can tell you about the only ever time I met Philip Linden personally

was inworld and was only by random bc I only went there just bc nosey. Was only for about 30 minutes altogether

Torley Linden was there as well to start with. Was pretty interesting what they were talking about. Philosophy and the implications of this for humankind

after Torley Linden had to go them I spend some little time with Philip Linden alone. Was pretty interesting for me what he did and said, how he responded to the questions I asked him

 my questions were:

how come you have a mansion and yet you sitting up here on this hill ? His answer: The mansion was a gift from a friend. It is a lovely thought and they are a very talented builder

how come your island is owned by M Linden and not by you ? His answer: I was wondering the same thing myself

you know that your feet are stuck in the rock you are sitting on ? His answer: So they are. I will have to do something about that

and he did. He changed the sculpt map to a log. So I just sit beside him on the log for a while and never said nothing more after that

like I never asked him why did he do what he had just done (leave SL) and what now ? He already had answered that in the 3 questions I already asked, so I didnt want to bother him any further

he never said nothing either after that. We just sit there quiet silent watching people coming and going into the mansion. Nobody came up by us

some little time later he said he had to go do stuff in the RL. I say ok, take care and be happy. And he say ok. thanks. you too. bye bye. And cool name btw. And poof he was gone. And I never saw him again forever more forever after

i hope that he is happy with what he is doing now

ps

Torley Linden took a pic of that day. So I end up in it. I delete that account after that bc some people saw the pic on the internets and thought that maybe I knew something about stuff I never. Was just a random thing that happened, among all the other random stuff that happens when we a little bit nosey sometimes

[wherorangi]

just on the way you have framed this

+

is not a binary choice for us. We can have both

while it is true that the bar for creation in Sansar will be a lot higher, this doesnt mean that we cant learn how make stuff at this level

is any number of people who already successfully create and sell product in SL who would back themselves to reach and exceed the Sansar bar

in the same way that many SLers are whizzes with prims. Then mesh came and many of the many went on to learn mesh and have been pretty successful at doing this

some of us (incl. me) never bothered. However I dont think that my want/inclination to stay in the past with what I am familiar and comfortable with, should have taken precedence over the aspirations of those who went over to mesh (and neither did it)

nor do I think that our wish to stay with a SL-like creative environment can or should take any precedence over what Sansar is or can become

 

  

 

 

[Darrius Gothly]

(general side-note: I wish there was a better way to highlight your words inline with mine. That red color is horrible on my eyes.)

---

Phil Deakins wrote:

On the contrary. Back in the 90s, way before SL was born, I wrote a multi-user graphics adventure game and put it online for testing. I was the one who did all the "

finger-pounding mileage churning out code

". Then I went off and did something completely different. That experience is of no use in this discussion, but I just thought I'd inform you on that point.

---

I was not aware you'd written a game back in the 90's. That's why I used the word "MAY". I wrote a game or two as well .. but before then. It was in the early 80's and I had to hack the video controller to allow graphical characters and adversaries instead of the then-typical text-based game play. It was also pre-Internet, pre-home computer and pre-IBM PC.

After I wrote those games, I moved to using minicomputers to develop English Language information retrieval systems. The code I developed was eventually licensed by AT&T as well as a few other *nix based companies; they used it to move their front-end support departments from "thumbing through the manual" to "ask the computer". There was also an abortive foray into using it for the medical industry, but the backers dropped out before we could perfect the video-player interface for use in the OR.

And yes .. that too was just barely pre-IBM PC and continued into the early 90s. Now, are we done with the "mine's bigger than yours" contest? Can we get back to discussing the REAL issue here?
 

---

Phil Deakins wrote:

To be perfectly honest, Darrius, through your posts in this thread, you do sound as though you are miffed because you are not one of those who are helping with Sansar. If you were one of them, I have no doubt that you'd see things wholly differently.

---

Okay .. one more try. Here goes ...

Sansar will be a whole bunch of separate, distinct and individual "Worlds" .. each crafted by a Creator to suit their vision. They won't be connected with each other except through the framework of Sansar. They won't interact with each other and they won't have to live with each other. They will be wholly independent and also wholly unrelated to each other.

Because LL won't be enforcing a singular "World" in which they all must live together and interact together, Sansar will instead devolve into an uncoordinated mish-mash of individual visions with no common thread that ties them together. It will shortly resemble a random collection of Facebook personal pages with no actual connection between them. They'll just have fancy VR renditions instead of pictures of you eating your morning bagel.

My "displeasure" has absolutely zero to do with whether or not "Mah stuffz" will transport into Sansar. My displeasure is that LL is doing absolutely nothing with the resources they have that will push the technology forward. Bringing inventories forward from SL into Sansar is not THE REASON I am upset, it is THE SYMPTOM of how LL is failing to do something worthwhile or revolutionary.

IMO LL is aiming too low, in a direction that will not achieve anything of worth in the VR or 3DVW realms. My perception is that Linden Lab is once again trying to dress up a pig with high-tech lipstick and sell it as "The Next Revolution". And my perception is that the marketplace of money spending curious and hungry customers will take a few looks and move on down the line.

Finally, no matter how badly you continue to FAIL seeing the vision of the future that I see .. no matter how badly you misrepresent me or what I envision .. what remains is the truth that not a single one of your arguments or digs has shown why Sansar will be anything MORE than the same old FB pig in neon stockings and day-glow lip-gloss.

[Darrius Gothly]

---

wherorangi wrote:

---

Darrius Gothly wrote:

When Philip first envisioned Second Life, he had this head full of grand ideas about a Utopian World where everything was free, everything was possible and eventually the rest of the world would catch up technologically and philosophically. We caught up in the Tech sense, mostly caught up in the Philosophic sense .. and pretty much turned his Grand Plan into daily activity.

But it was more than a decade ago that he first tasked his team with making Utopia. Since then the forces of Business, Finance and Reality have been steadily grinding it down, further and further. While not necessarily a "bad thing'', it has had some side-effects that we now see evident in Linden Lab's decision making process.

---

i just come in on this part

from a philosphical pov, in a visionary sense that has a profound effect on the future shaping of the human race, then I will not disagree with the basis of your point

is the kinda thing that sorta goes:

reach for the stars, spend trillions of dollars and hours consuming the efforts of the best and brighest people that the world has to offer, and end up with a mobile phone

can be a little bit disappointing that after all the last 70 years about, then we never got to the stars already. Yet the mobile phone (and apps on it) has changed/shaped the world quite profoundly from each users own unique pov. And for the better I think. Far more so than a handful of astronauts who maybe might have made it to another star somehow

+

what will the future of VR actually be ? We dont know. What we do know tho is that whatever does come out of it will be driven by the choices that the most number of users make, as it benefits them personally

a similar philosophical posit when considering/wondering/searching for big answers. Why is FB so big, and SL so small comparatively ?

the simplist explanation is that more people see an actual personal realworld benefit for themselves in FB. 1.3 billion active users vs 1 million (about). Is a reality this. Might not be great reality, but is what people have chosen for themselves

+

i think also that something that we can sometimes miss when wondering about the future of VR is that people just arent into it

i think is mostly bc people cant see any practical realworld benefit in it for themselves at this time. Other than maybe as a form of entertainment, exotic entertainment even maybe. There might be a practical VR benefit one day, but they dunno what the might be, might be. And nor do the people pioneering this stuff, at this time

in a we dunno what we dunno sense. So just have a go, make something and see what happens

LL in this sense is no different to anyone else. They dunno either, so they just having a go at making something, and what happens will happen. Can be a bit fatalistic this way of doing things. But sometimes there is no other way

+

about Philip Linden

His vision for SL as vehicle for a alternative future for humankind, was over when nobody who was paying the tiers accepted his philosophical view that without conflict there is no life. The people never saw any point or benefit for them in paying for conflict just to live

Philip Linden I think did try to accommodate/resolve this in his own thinking over the next few years. But he gave it up in the end, and walked away from SL, his own creation, as the vehicle to express his own philosophies. I think that he was not able to fully reconcile this with the fact the most number of SL users/people disagreed with him on this pretty fundamental philosophical point, and find happiness/peace in this for himself

i think he realised and came to accept, that we (the users) had changed SL into something other/different than what he had hoped for and envisaged. In a from stars to phone kinda analogy

+

i can tell you about the only ever time I met Philip Linden personally

was inworld and was only by random bc I only went there just bc nosey. Was only for about 30 minutes altogether

Torley Linden was there as well to start with. Was pretty interesting what they were talking about. Philosophy and the implications of this for humankind

after Torley Linden had to go them I spend some little time with Philip Linden alone. Was pretty interesting for me what he did and said, how he responded to the questions I asked him

 my questions were:

how come you have a mansion and yet you sitting up here on this hill ? His answer: The mansion was a gift from a friend. It is a lovely thought and they are a very talented builder

how come your island is owned by M Linden and not by you ? His answer: I was wondering the same thing myself

you know that your feet are stuck in the rock you are sitting on ? His answer: So they are. I will have to do something about that

and he did. He changed the sculpt map to a log. So I just sit beside him on the log for a while and never said nothing more after that

like I never asked him why did he do what he had just done (leave SL) and what now ? He already had answered that in the 3 questions I already asked, so I didnt want to bother him any further

he never said nothing either after that. We just sit there quiet silent watching people coming and going into the mansion. Nobody came up by us

some little time later he said he had to go do stuff in the RL. I say ok, take care and be happy. And he say ok. thanks. you too. bye bye. And cool name btw. And poof he was gone. And I never saw him again forever more forever after

i hope that he is happy with what he is doing now

ps

Torley Linden took a pic of that day. So I end up in it. I delete that account after that bc some people saw the pic on the internets and thought that maybe I knew something about stuff I never. Was just a random thing that happened, among all the other random stuff that happens when we a little bit nosey sometimes

---

I absolutely love your story about meeting Philip Linden. It embodies everything that makes SL so special .. the complete ordinariness of it.

If we reach for the stars and manage only to snag a mobile phone out of it .. I'm okay with that. We at least reached for the stars. And we also took the whole industry forward in a way we might not fully understand yet. Steve Jobs was good at seeing where we could go, and he was enough of a bully to make people go do it no matter what.

Linden Lab has behind them several failed ventures where they tried to figure out how to force-fit SL into the mold created by Facebook. They keep seeing that market (1.3 billion users is a big lure after all) as the place they need to go. They also realize what you pointed out, they only have a million or so users. So they opt for the safe play and forsake their unique advantages in order to make a short-term buck.

More than 15 years ago Philip took a leap of faith, powered by a dream, and it's only just now starting to come to an age and maturily level where it can grow again. We are standing here on the precipice of the next revolution in human computer interactions .. and the vanguard company that should be leading the way is instead making more coloring books for toddlers.

I see a possible world where you and I .. and Philip too .. can sit on that log in full 3D simulated reality, taking about having our feet in the dirt or our house on the hill. Except instead of seeing a flat 2D representation of those things, we will all share it in ultra-realistic visual engagement.

Philip will be able to reach out his hand and push down the rock or the dirt and set his feet free. All three of us will stand up and walk toward the house on the hill. We will move things, build things and interact with things in incredibly ordinary ways. We will be super people with super powers .. doing absolutely nothing super or special .. just living together in a world we all see and perceive as real but totally separated from our own physical locations.

The FUTURE of 3DVW isn't about the special powers or functions or features it has, but in the ordinary, regular everyday stuff we do that make it super realistic for all of us.

Linden Lab is once again trying to find some way to force fit VW & VR into an already existing paradigm just to make a buck. But in the process they are forsaking their chance to make the ordinary .. ordinarily realistic. And they will fail once again because the buying public isn't looking for a whiz-bang new toy .. they are looking for a way to put their feet up on an ottoman, listen to some favorite tunes .. and do it in an ultra-realistic world with their friends from every corner of the globe.

They are writing a script that VR must follow, when the ultimate "script" begins and ends with "absolutely anything you want to do without leaving your chair."

[Phil Deakins]

---

Darrius Gothly wrote:

(general side-note: I wish there was a better way to highlight your words inline with mine. That red color is horrible on my eyes.)

Oh, sorry. I'll use blue this time

---

Phil Deakins wrote:

On the contrary. Back in the 90s, way before SL was born, I wrote a multi-user graphics adventure game and put it online for testing. I was the one who did all the "

finger-pounding mileage churning out code

". Then I went off and did something completely different. That experience is of no use in this discussion, but I just thought I'd inform you on that point.

---

I was not aware you'd written a game back in the 90's. That's why I used the word "MAY". I wrote a game or two as well .. but before then. It was in the early 80's and I had to hack the video controller to allow graphical characters and adversaries instead of the then-typical text-based game play. It was also pre-Internet, pre-home computer and pre-IBM PC.

I wrote 2 multi-user online games in the 90s, only one of which was graphics - 2D, similar to Jet Set Willy and Lemmings.

After I wrote those games, I moved to using minicomputers to develop English Language information retrieval systems. The code I developed was eventually licensed by AT&T as well as a few other *nix based companies; they used it to move their front-end support departments from "thumbing through the manual" to "ask the computer". There was also an abortive foray into using it for the medical industry, but the backers dropped out before we could perfect the video-player interface for use in the OR.

I moved in a different direction after writing those. I went back to singing professionally for a few years.

And yes .. that too was just barely pre-IBM PC and continued into the early 90s. Now, are we done with the "mine's bigger than yours" contest? Can we get back to discussing the REAL issue here?

Ok

 

---

Phil Deakins wrote:

To be perfectly honest, Darrius, through your posts in this thread, you do sound as though you are miffed because you are not one of those who are helping with Sansar. If you were one of them, I have no doubt that you'd see things wholly differently.

---

Okay .. one more try. Here goes ...

Sansar will be a whole bunch of separate, distinct and individual "Worlds" .. each crafted by a Creator to suit their vision. They won't be connected with each other except through the framework of Sansar. They won't interact with each other and they won't have to live with each other. They will be wholly independent and also wholly unrelated to each other.

That's right. It's just that it sounded like you weren't aware of it in some of your posts in this thread, and that you were thinking it would be like SL, only a super-SL.

Because LL won't be enforcing a singular "World" in which they all must live together and interact together, Sansar will instead devolve into an uncoordinated mish-mash of individual visions with no common thread that ties them together. It will shortly resemble a random collection of Facebook personal pages with no actual connection between them. They'll just have fancy VR renditions instead of pictures of you eating your morning bagel.

Hmm. I suggest that it will be more like the collection of tiny grids that exist today. Although I imagine that the cost of running your own 'world' on Sansar will be expensive, and might not attract the sort of people that SL and the clones attract. I'd guess that LL is aiming at operators with money, like Blue Mars, from a 'games' point of view, and all sorts of non-game companies. Many years ago, I posted my vision of this SL sort of technology facilitating supermarkets, stores, hotels, holiday complexes, etc. etc., where they could create online look-alike versions for people to wander through for whatever reason - shopping, deciding to book, and whatever. I suspect that LL is aiming at that sort of usage as well as game-like useages.

My "displeasure" has absolutely zero to do with whether or not "Mah stuffz" will transport into Sansar. My displeasure is that LL is doing absolutely nothing with the resources they have that will push the technology forward. Bringing inventories forward from SL into Sansar is not THE REASON I am upset, it is THE SYMPTOM of how LL is failing to do something worthwhile or revolutionary.

Ok. But I suggest that it's not a good sympton to pick. Also, we have no idea as to whether or not LL is making use of the resources they have. One resource that I'm certain they must be making use of, is SL itself. Their experience with it must play a huge part in Sansar. If, by "resources", you mean SL users, then they have many years of expereince with SL users, successes, failures, desires, objections, and I would guess that those years of experience with them is not dismissed at all. I would suggest that LL is making great deal use of all that experience as they design Sansar.

IMO LL is aiming too low, in a direction that will not achieve anything of worth in the VR or 3DVW realms. My perception is that Linden Lab is once again trying to dress up a pig with high-tech lipstick and sell it as "The Next Revolution". And my perception is that the marketplace of money spending curious and hungry customers will take a few looks and move on down the line.

I don't share your vision of what Sansar will be. Yes, it can have plenty of SL-like 'experiences' for SL-type users, but I imagine that that is only a part of it, as I explained in the earlier paragraph. My guess is that LL is aiming at a much wider field than SL/game/social type of people.

Finally, no matter how badly you continue to FAIL seeing the vision of the future that I see .. no matter how badly you misrepresent me or what I envision .. what remains is the truth that not a single one of your arguments or digs has shown why Sansar will be anything MORE than the same old FB pig in neon stockings and day-glow lip-gloss.

I haven't really been having a dig at you. I've been noticing for some days that you write as though you haven't grasped what Sansar actually is. This post that I'm replying to shows that I was mistaken. What you don't seem to have included in your thinking, though, is that Sansar - a system for facilitating 3D 'experiences' - can, and most likely will, include much more than SL/game/social type experiences. So no, I don't envision the same future of it that you do. Your "

FB pig in neon stockings

" vision is much too limited, in my view/vision.

---

 

[Darrius Gothly]

The whole "bringing my inventory into Sansar" thing is perhaps where the misperception arises. I use it as a way of saying "we stand on a peak now, but turn back into the valley and call it progress."

I see SL as a whole lot more than most people do I guess. Sure, I see the limitations of the tech, how framerates and video cards keep people from enjoying it in some fashion. But I also am capable of seeing the artistry embodied in its simple beauty. Like those amazing artists that can draw three curvy lines and make you see a wind-swept beach with two lovers walking hand-in-hand .. Second Life has a complexity and depth that is belied by its clunky interface.

Sansar is just another iteration of a clunky interface. Updated, compartmentalized to make it easier to develop, and restricted to make it financially successful .. they hope. But instead what it is becoming and where it will end up is just another half-step down the wrong road.

The richness that can be communicated with three simple lines is there .. everywhere in SL. Linden Lab has the unique position of owning it outright. And they have the opportunity to grow it into the new VR world in sensible stages. But once again they have opted to discard all of that beauty, promise and richness .. and focus on stuffing whiz-bangier tech into old boxes.

"Throwing away your inventory": and "Discarding existing customers" are just examples (to me) of how they are ignoring their leadership position in favor of doing neat techie stuff because the toys look kewl. Kewl techie toys last as long as it takes to turn out the next revision. But grand ideals? Bigger goals and lofty visions? Those are things that outlast generations of human beings.

Just like Gutenberg and Ben Franklin who saw the invention and use of printing presses as world changing things, I think we all can see how VR can change the world too. We just gotta stop messing with wires and code .. and start chasing the real beauty at the core of the idea.

[Phil Deakins]

Sorry about this, but replying within your post again is much easier for you to see the bits I'm replying to.

---

Darrius Gothly wrote:

The whole "bringing my inventory into Sansar" thing is perhaps where the misperception arises. I use it as a way of saying "we stand on a peak now, but turn back into the valley and call it progress."

But that's not what they are doing. SL is staying, and continues to be improved. Sansar is something different, so it's not a step back.

I see SL as a whole lot more than most people do I guess. Sure, I see the limitations of the tech, how framerates and video cards keep people from enjoying it in some fashion. But I also am capable of seeing the artistry embodied in its simple beauty. Like those amazing artists that can draw three curvy lines and make you see a wind-swept beach with two lovers walking hand-in-hand 

(an aside: they spend a lot of trial and error time to get just the right lines)

.. Second Life has a complexity and depth that is belied by its clunky interface.

Sansar is just another iteration of a clunky interface. Updated, compartmentalized to make it easier to develop, and restricted to make it financially successful .. they hope. But instead what it is becoming and where it will end up is just another half-step down the wrong road.

I'm not sure that I understand what you mean by that. Do you mean that time spent developing Sansar is time not spent developing SL? I'm not sure that they equate that way.

The richness that can be communicated with three simple lines is there .. everywhere in SL. Linden Lab has the unique position of owning it outright. And they have the opportunity to grow it into the new VR world in sensible stages. But once again they have opted to discard all of that beauty, promise and richness .. and focus on stuffing whiz-bangier tech into old boxes.

What old boxes?

"Throwing away your inventory": and "Discarding existing customers" are just examples (to me) of how they are ignoring their leadership position in favor of doing neat techie stuff because the toys look kewl. Kewl techie toys last as long as it takes to turn out the next revision. But grand ideals? Bigger goals and lofty visions? Those are things that outlast generations of human beings.

They are not discarding any customers. Where do you get that idea from?

Just like Gutenberg and Ben Franklin who saw the invention and use of printing presses as world changing things, I think we all can see how VR can change the world too. We just gotta stop messing with wires and code .. and start chasing the real beauty at the core of the idea.

---

 

[Theresa Tennyson]

---

Darrius Gothly wrote:

The whole "bringing my inventory into Sansar" thing is perhaps where the misperception arises. I use it as a way of saying "we stand on a peak now, but turn back into the valley and call it progress."

I see SL as a whole lot more than most people do I guess. Sure, I see the limitations of the tech, how framerates and video cards keep people from enjoying it in some fashion. But I also am capable of seeing the artistry embodied in its simple beauty. Like those amazing artists that can draw three curvy lines and make you see a wind-swept beach with two lovers walking hand-in-hand .. Second Life has a complexity and depth that is belied by its clunky interface.

Sansar is just another iteration of a clunky interface. Updated, compartmentalized to make it easier to develop, and restricted to make it financially successful .. they hope. But instead what it is becoming and where it will end up is just another half-step down the wrong road.

The richness that can be communicated with three simple lines is there .. everywhere in SL. Linden Lab has the unique position of owning it outright. And they have the opportunity to grow it into the new VR world in sensible stages. But once again they have opted to discard all of that beauty, promise and richness .. and focus on stuffing whiz-bangier tech into old boxes.

"Throwing away your inventory": and "Discarding existing customers" are just examples (to me) of how they are ignoring their leadership position in favor of doing neat techie stuff because the toys look kewl. Kewl techie toys last as long as it takes to turn out the next revision. But grand ideals? Bigger goals and lofty visions? Those are things that outlast generations of human beings.

Just like Gutenberg and Ben Franklin who saw the invention and use of printing presses as world changing things, I think we all can see how VR can change the world too. We just gotta stop messing with wires and code .. and start chasing the real beauty at the core of the idea.

---

Okay, I think I've got it...

"Sansar will be different, so it will be just the same! What we need is to take what we have now and keep it the same so it'll all come out different!"

Say hi to Winston Smith for me...

[ChinRey]

---

Phil Deakins wrote:

To be perfectly honest, Darrius, through your posts in this thread, you do sound as though you are miffed because you are not one of those who are helping with Sansar. If you were one of them, I have no doubt that you'd see things wholly differently.

---

Oh no, we have to be fair to poor Darrius. He's been expressing the same view all the time, even long before there was any talk of inviting people to the beta. We can argue whether he's right or wrong, but he's definitely sincere, no doubt about that.

[Darrius Gothly]

Phil,

Try retaining more than the sentence your eye is resting on now. Once you've managed to put my entire premise into your brain all at the same time .. let me know. Until such time, please refrain from asking me the same question I've answered 10 times before IN THIS THREAD!

[wherorangi]

---

Darrius Gothly wrote:

... I also am capable of seeing the artistry embodied in its simple beauty. Like those amazing artists that can draw three curvy lines and make you see a wind-swept beach with two lovers walking hand-in-hand ... The richness that can be communicated with three simple lines is there ...

Just like Gutenberg and Ben Franklin who saw the invention and use of printing presses as world changing things, I think we all can see how VR can change the world too. We just gotta stop messing with wires and code .. and start chasing the real beauty at the core of the idea.

---

i quote as above to remove the references to LL so that I can see your argument more clearly

+

without the wire and codes, the mechanics, technicals, learning, discipline, the canvasses and tools, etc etc to express our art then all we have is oration

oration is a rich and vibrant tool for sure. It works great for storytelling and communicating ideas and expressions, art and science even. Both practical and imaginative

to move beyond this tho into other forms of expression, then we do need other tools and canvases

as you say the canvases and tools dont always need to be complicated, altho when something complex is being created/built then while each tool might be simple dedicated, the range of needed tools grows as the work grows in complexity

when look at what toolmakers focus on then can see is pretty much always about functionality, specificity for task, ease of use, and responding to those who use the tools made

the toolmakers respond to the artists (tool users) and not to the viewers of the art/expression produced by the artist using the tools. Even when sometimes the viewer of the art might be interested in the techniques and tools used by the artist

+

about 3 lines. And the true cost of simplicity, as seen thru the eyes of a artist

 i read once a story about Salvador Dali as told by a friend of his

they were having lunch in a cafe. A person approached them and kinda gushed all over Mr Dali, like what happens sometimes

after a bit the person handed Mr Dali a table napkin and asked if he could draw something. He then say sure and drew something on his own napkin. The person reached for it and he said: that be $20,000 please. The person goes: wut!! you drew that in less than a minute. And he said: It took me my whole life to draw that

   

[Phil Deakins]

I'm sure I've heard that story before, or one pretty much the same.

The waiter could have taken the napkin for free, anyway, as it belonged to the cafe and not to Salvador Dali

[wherorangi]

---

Phil Deakins wrote:

I'm sure I've heard that story before, or one pretty much the same.

The waiter could have taken the napkin for free, anyway, as it belonged to the cafe and not to Salvador Dali

---

yes lol (:

the waiter could have tried. But the artist could have then set fire to the napkin destroying their work, and then settled with the cafe owner for the price of a napkin

the other person could then of bought their napkin from the cafe owner, and then tried selling it for a profit on ebay, with a sign saying: "Salvador Dali was nearly here"

never know. They might of doubled their money

jejejjeje (:

 

[Phil Deakins]

---

wherorangi wrote:

---

Phil Deakins wrote:

I'm sure I've heard that story before, or one pretty much the same.

The waiter could have taken the napkin for free, anyway, as it belonged to the cafe and not to Salvador Dali

---

yes lol (:

the waiter could have tried. But the artist could have then set fire to the napkin destroying their work, and then settled with the cafe owner for the price of a napkin

the other person could then of bought their napkin from the cafe owner, and then tried selling it for a profit on ebay, with a sign saying: "Salvador Dali was nearly here"

never know. They might of doubled their money

jejejjeje (:

 

---

Salvador would need to be very quick if he wanted to set fire to the napkin. Maybe there was a candle on the table, but that's unlikely as it was only a cafe, not a restaurant. I think the waiter would have succeeded in grabbing the napkin because Salvador wouldn't be expecting it.

But then, of course, the waiter would have to pay taxes on that receipt of value, and he'd probably have been ruined unless he could sell it quickly. A better way would have been to just ask for an autograph on the napkin, and then draw a picture on it later, to pass it off as a signed work by Salvador Dali

[wherorangi]

---

Phil Deakins wrote:

---

wherorangi wrote:

---

Phil Deakins wrote:

I'm sure I've heard that story before, or one pretty much the same.

The waiter could have taken the napkin for free, anyway, as it belonged to the cafe and not to Salvador Dali

---

yes lol (:

the waiter could have tried. But the artist could have then set fire to the napkin destroying their work, and then settled with the cafe owner for the price of a napkin

the other person could then of bought their napkin from the cafe owner, and then tried selling it for a profit on ebay, with a sign saying: "Salvador Dali was nearly here"

never know. They might of doubled their money

jejejjeje (:

 

---

Salvador would need to be very quick if he wanted to set fire to the napkin. Maybe there was a candle on the table, but that's unlikely as it was only a cafe, not a restaurant. I think the waiter would have succeeded in grabbing the napkin because Salvador wouldn't be expecting it.

But then, of course, the waiter would have to pay taxes on that receipt of value, and he'd probably have been ruined unless he could sell it quickly. A better way would have been to just ask for an autograph on the napkin, and then draw a picture on it later, to pass it off as a signed work by Salvador Dali

---

but then the waiter would of ended up in jail, for theft as a servant. He pinched a napkin that never belonged to him

(:

+

i think the person what asked him to draw something was maybe a bit greedy. I wouldve just asked for a autograph like you say. But not like you say then stuck my own drawing on it. I dont want to go to jail either

and also I dont think anybody will believe my drawing of a plywood box was a Dali work anyways (: