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Invader Dench wrote:

This is the most stupidest thing I have ever seen any online game do, and I been around for awhile.   MMO's and other things, you basically are now going to cut off alot of those people who are your economy.  Hey I live in one of those states, I work my butt off, if I wanna goto a Skill Gaming sim and spend some lindens that I bought with my hard earned money, THAT SHOULD BE MY GOD GIVEN RIGHT!   You are doing this while hey look 
Prostitution and escort services are around, but no lets not target them.  Lets target the people who work their butts off to the bone who goto these sims to relax, to spend some of their real life cash into lindens.      What burns me up the most about all of this...Arkansas has a lottery that is gambling so either you guys up there didn't do all of your homework, or something else.  Heck I can go 15 miles away to West Silaom Springs, Arkansas to a casino.   I applore you do a age limit, don't punish those users in those listed states in this.   

Everyone of those listed states has a lottery, which goes under skilled gaming, so why punish them?  I for one play the Arkansas one quite a bit,   Please reconcider this, I don't want to lose the ability to goto these sims cause someone up in LL decided to target these states and punish the users in those states from it.   Go with a 21 year old Age limit and keep it at that.   These sims are a large part of your economy please look at it that way,  I goto Ocean view games alot, and I tell you I have NEVER had issues there.  The people are friendly.  

I think you'll find it unlikely that LL would put themselves in harm's way vs Arkansas law.  Age restrictions wouldn't do anything to reduce LL's liability vs state laws.

 

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Thing is going by what the Agent this morning told me...It isn't by what the Government or the states it is by what Linden Labs is wanting to do.  Such as this lil thing from their own policy.

 

  1. Prohibited Jurisdictions
    1. Second Life residents who reside, or are physically located, in prohibited states are not permitted to access Skill Gaming Regions (“Prohibited Jurisdictions”). Knowing circumvention of those restrictions by a Second Life resident, Region Owner, Operator, or Creator shall constitute a violation of this Skill Gaming Policy.
    2. The determination of Prohibited Jurisdictions as set out in this Section 6 reflects a policy decision by Linden Lab and should not be regarded or relied upon by Second Life residents, Region Owners, Operators, Creators or third parties as a determination of the legality of any particular Skill Game or Skill Gaming Region in any particular jurisdiction (whether within or outside the United States). Residents who choose to participate in Skill Gaming are representing and warranting that their conduct is lawful in the jurisdiction in which they are located.
    3. Linden Lab reserves the right to amend the list of Prohibited Jurisdictions in its sole discretion and immediately at any time.               This line tells me right there they can change that list anytime they feel like it!

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Invader Dench wrote:

Thing is going by what the Agent this morning told me...It isn't by what the Government or the states it is by what Linden Labs is wanting to do.  Such as this lil thing from their own policy.

 
  1. Prohibited Jurisdictions
    1. Second Life residents who reside, or are physically located, in 
       are not permitted to access Skill Gaming Regions (
      “Prohibited Jurisdictions”
      ). Knowing circumvention of those restrictions by a Second Life resident, Region Owner, Operator, or Creator shall constitute a violation of this Skill Gaming Policy.
    2. The determination
      of Prohibited Jurisdictions as set out in this Section 6 reflects a policy decision by Linden Lab and
      should not be regarded or relied upon
      by Second Life residents, Region Owners, Operators, Creators or third parties
      as a determination of the legality
      of any particular Skill Game or Skill Gaming Region in any particular jurisdiction (whether within or outside the United States). Residents who choose to participate in Skill Gaming are representing and warranting that their conduct is lawful in the jurisdiction in which they are located.
    3. Linden Lab reserves the right to amend the list of Prohibited Jurisdictions in its sole discretion and immediately at any time.               This line tells me right there they can change that list anytime they feel like it!

"The determination ....should not be regarded or relied upon..... as a determination of the legality...."

At first I was going to say that either the Agent you spoke with was an idiot or that you perhaps did not understand what they said.  But after reflecting on it a minute actually it is the correct response just like the phrasing in the Terms because Linden Lab CANNOT give anyone legal advise.  Whether we like it or not, they cannot do that.

 

Additionally, "This line tells me right there they can change that list anytime they feel like it," is true for any part of the Terms of Service, especially if they feel a change is needed to comply with Law.  So there is nothing new about this.

 

 

 



 


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I doubt that LL is just doing this randomly or to punish people that live in your state.  Despite the fact that some gaming is allowed in your state there must be something in your state's laws that leaves them open to liability if they allow you in a gaming sim. 

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Now, for the tenth time...please answer this question plainly and not give me that standard song and dance about gaming policy. I am involved in a fantasy sport....Drag racing.No money is required to play, but we do pay our winners. There is no profit or wagering involved and it is 90% luck, 10% skill to win. I want to know if we are affected. If so, we will all stop racing and putting into the sl economy.

A straight and direct yes or no is reqested

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Invader Dench wrote:

This is the most stupidest thing I have ever seen any online game do, and I been around for awhile.   MMO's and other things, you basically are now going to cut off alot of those people who are your economy.  Hey I live in one of those states, I work my butt off, if I wanna goto a Skill Gaming sim and spend some lindens that I bought with my hard earned money, THAT SHOULD BE MY GOD GIVEN RIGHT!   You are doing this while hey look 
Prostitution and escort services are around, but no lets not target them.  Lets target the people who work their butts off to the bone who goto these sims to relax, to spend some of their real life cash into lindens.      What burns me up the most about all of this...Arkansas has a lottery that is gambling so either you guys up there didn't do all of your homework, or something else.  Heck I can go 15 miles away to West Silaom Springs, Arkansas to a casino.   I applore you do a age limit, don't punish those users in those listed states in this.   

 

 

Everyone of those listed states has a lottery, which goes under skilled gaming, so why punish them?  I for one play the Arkansas one quite a bit,   Please reconcider this, I don't want to lose the ability to goto these sims cause someone up in LL decided to target these states and punish the users in those states from it.   Go with a 21 year old Age limit and keep it at that.   These sims are a large part of your economy please look at it that way,  I goto Ocean view games alot, and I tell you I have NEVER had issues there.  The people are friendly.  

Unfortunately it's not LL you have to talk about on these matters. It's your local state representatives mostly. LL has likely little choice but put these policies in place. Its actually astonishing SL has been able to allow what it has for the last 7 years. Potention your local reps about such laws if you do not agree with them. People tend to think of SL like it is some other planet. Realistically all laws still apply and SL is just software and servers. Various laws definitely still apply.

I have to agree it is highly hypocrital of states that have state ran gambling/lotteries but won't even allow games of skill with pay and win conditions. Grown adults over the age of 21 should not have their state dictate how they can or can't spend their entertainment dollar if it isn't hurting someone else. In the end its mostly about special interest from the casino industries that force laws like these into place. the Unitied States is supposed to be the land of the free. It still has a LONG way to go to live up to those ideals.

Here is a good source for laws and codes for Arkansas. Oddly Arkansas apparetly refers to games of chance as "games of hazzard"

5-66-113. Games of hazard or skill - Betting.

(a) If a person bets any money or any valuable thing on any game of hazard or skill, upon conviction he or she is guilty of a violation and shall be fined in any sum not less than ten dollars ($10.00) nor more than twenty-five dollars ($25.00).

(b) In prosecuting under subsection (a) of this section it is sufficient for the indictment to charge that the defendant bet money or another valuable thing on a game of hazard or skill, without stating with whom the game was played.

5-66-118. Lottery, etc. - Tickets.

(a) Except as authorized under the Charitable Bingo and Raffles Enabling Act, ß 23-114-101 et seq., it is unlawful for a person to:

(1) Keep an office, room, or place for the sale or disposition of a lottery ticket or slip, policy ticket or slip, gift concert ticket or slip, or like device; (2) Vend, sell, or otherwise dispose of any lottery ticket or slip, policy ticket or slip, gift concert ticket or slip, or like device; (3) Possess any lottery ticket or slip, policy ticket or slip, or gift concert ticket or slip, or like device, except a lottery ticket issued in another state where a lottery is legal; or (4) Be interested, either directly or indirectly, in the sale or disposition of any lottery ticket or slip, policy ticket or slip, or gift concert ticket or slip, or like device.

(b) In any prosecution or investigation under this section, it is no exemption for a witness that his or her testimony may incriminate himself or herself, but no such testimony given by the witness shall be used against him or her in any prosecution except for perjury, and the witness is discharged from liability for any violation of the law upon his or her part disclosed by his or her testimony.

© (1) The General Assembly recognizes that:

(A) The present laws relating to lotteries are vague in certain areas and, although designed to prohibit the operation of lotteries in the state, may be interpreted to prohibit even the printing of lottery tickets by companies in this state for distribution in other states where lotteries are legal; (B) There are companies in this state that print various types of tickets, stamps, tags, coupon books, and similar devices and that may be interested in printing lottery tickets for states where lotteries are lawful; and © It is the intent and purpose of this subsection to clarify the present law relating to lotteries to specifically permit businesses in Arkansas to print lottery tickets for use in states where lotteries are lawful.

(2) (A) The printing or other production of lottery tickets by a business located in Arkansas for use in a state where a lottery is permitted is declared to be lawful.

(B) Nothing contained in this section and ß 5-66-119 or any other law shall be construed to make printing or production of lottery tickets described in subdivision ©(2)(A) of this section unlawful.

(d) (1) Upon conviction, any person who violates this section is guilty of a violation and shall be fined an amount not to exceed ten thousand dollars ($10,000).

(2) A second or subsequent offense is a Class D felony.

http://www.gambling-law-us.com/State-Laws/Arkansas/

 

Land of the free ..... yah right. :/

 

 

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Ariaah wrote:

Now, for the tenth time...please answer this question plainly and not give me that standard song and dance about gaming policy. I am involved in a fantasy sport....Drag racing.No money is required to play, but we do pay our winners. There is no profit or wagering involved and it is 90% luck, 10% skill to win. I want to know if we are affected. If so, we will all stop racing and putting into the sl economy.

A straight and direct yes or no is reqested

If there is no money required or permited to race it is not within the scope of the skill game policy.

Example 1: a drag race which racers are not required to pay to enter the race AND do not have the option to pay an amount in order to qualify for winning a linden currency prize would not have to worry about the skill game policy at all. "Freeplay" is not within the scope of the policy

Example 2: A drag race where racers DO pay to enter the race OR have an optional pay in in order to qualify for winning a linden currency prize would be within the scope of the policy and would have to apply for a skill game operator status and it would be restricted to a gaming region.

Really a game or activity can be 100% luck but with no pay in of any kind (ie various loophole attempts) is not within the scope of either the wagering or skill game policy.

I am not an attorney but I am 99% certain racing would be allowed  with pay to enter and money to win conditions. This would mean such an activity would be restricted to a gaming region and you will still need to apply as a skill game operator.

 

“Skill Game” or “Skill Gaming” shall mean a game, implemented through an Inworld object: 1) whose outcome is determined by skill and is not contingent, in whole or in material part, upon chance; 2) requires or permits the payment of Linden Dollars to play; 3) provides a payout in Linden Dollars; and 4) is legally authorized by applicable United States and international law. Games in which Second Life residents do not pay to play are not within the scope of this Skill Gaming Policy. “Skill Games” are not intended to include and shall not include “gambling” as defined by applicable United States and international law.

Are “freeplay” games in Second Life subject to the Skill Gaming Policy?

Freeplay games, in which the sole payment required or permitted is a nominal Linden Dollar payment for the sole purpose of triggering gameplay and is immediately and automatically refunded without conditions of any kind, are not within the scope of the Skill Gaming Policy.

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you probably best to read your state law

Arkansas state law

"5-66-113. Games of hazard or skill - Betting.
(a) If a person bets any money or any valuable thing on any game of hazard or skill, upon conviction he or she is guilty of a violation and shall be fined in any sum not less than ten dollars ($10.00) nor more than twenty-five dollars ($25.00)."

 

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I was more of concern about this for a friend who works at one of these gaming places, as a host doesn't even play the game, but finding out she was moving back to chicago anyway.  Thanks for the information :)

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Sorina Garrigus wrote:

Oddly Arkansas apparetly refers to games of chance as "games of hazzard"


the origin of the word is quite old. was a dice game called Hazard from the way back. 14th century England about. The game was simplified when it came to America to become the game of craps as is played today

the word hazard is french. and seems like it came from the olde spanish word azar which means a unfortunate turn/roll of card/dice

in the english the general meaning mostly means an engagement with a event of which the outcome is unpredictable leading to misfortune. like playing with matches and petrol is hazardous for example

in gambling terms then can say that games like poker, blackjack, backgammon, cribbage, euchre, bridge, etc are games of hazard. Where while is a element of skill the games are a hazard bc of the chance element. roll of dice. turn of card. shuffle and deal. etc

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i completely Agree here on this matter

I Live in a st. that allows gambiling even when and if I do I do not I REPEAT DO NOT Get asked for a credit card when I first walk/buzzed in and I don't even have a credit card to boot now I go gambiling in RL places I use whats on my Persons RL Cash now you are going to tell us free members whom are possibility of all of your members who make up 50 percent or more of the world that is SL to go take a leap somewhere else Not happy about this :(

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So let me get this straight... game creators had to submit their games to lawyers who had to certify that the games are not games where chance is involved in either as a part or as a whole? Looking at the list of games approved, how could any serious lawyer approve them?

 

Just like how the initial gambling ban was a fiasco since pretty much nothing changed after it (except the removal of poker and slot machines), this implementation, especially with the involvement of lawyers, is a joke. As much as I would love the gambling situation to be back prior to the initial ban, I can only say that I'm disappointed at how the new "ban" is being implemented.

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gotohellworld wrote:

So let me get this straight... game creators had to submit their games to lawyers who had to certify that the games are not games where chance is involved in either as a part or as a whole? Looking at the list of games approved, how could any serious lawyer approve them?

A degree of chance is allowed in skill games, but only a relatively small degree.

The thing is, if a lawyer testifies (on paper) that a game is in compliance with the rules, then LL thinks they're corporate back is covered should the law raise its head. From LL's point of view, they don't care one way or the other about chance and skill. They only care about covering themselves. That's my opinion, anyway. Personally, I think they are fooling themselves if that's what they think.

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What I've never been able to understand is how can a lawyer, who has never been in SL, never played any of the games, given an expert opinion on how its scripted or run?   It doesn't make any difference to me because Im neither a creator or owner but it sure is curious as to what criteria they use to assess a game.

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I don't think that matters to LL. I presume the game creator will describe the game to a lawyer, and the lawyer will make a decision on that. The creator may even demo the game for the lawyer. The lawyer simply has to take the creator's word for it all. I can see one lawyer giving the ok to game where another would not. I don't think it bother's LL either way.

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Stormie Windlow wrote:

So you think they will base their opinion on the Creators description?   Who has a vested interest in getting approval?  

The creator also has to submit a sworn affidavit describing the game, so lying about the game would be perjury.

But that's not really the point.   LL is doing a due diligence exercise -- they want to be able to show they're taking all reasonable measures they can to comply with US federal and state law.  

If game creators or operators want to run the risk of prosecution, that's up to them, but if they do, LL doesn't want to find itself involved.

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Phil Deakins wrote:


gotohellworld wrote:

So let me get this straight... game creators had to submit their games to lawyers who had to certify that the games are not games where chance is involved in either as a part or as a whole? Looking at the list of games approved, how could any serious lawyer approve them?

A degree of chance is allowed in skill games, but only a relatively small degree.

The thing is, if a lawyer testifies (on paper) that a game is in compliance with the rules, then LL thinks they're corporate back is covered should the law raise its head. From LL's point of view, they don't care one way or the other about chance and skill. They only care about covering themselves. That's my opinion, anyway. Personally, I think they are fooling themselves if that's what they think.

Oh, I certainly agree that the lawyer requirement is simply so LL can cover themselves on a legal basis as any lawsuit will then be redirected to the game creator/operator. 

 

As for a degree of chance being allowed, games such as No Devil certainly doesn't fit 1) whose outcome is determined by skill and is not contingent, in whole or in material part, upon chance. The way I see how a game that involves chance could fit as a skill game, is one where optimal play has a long term expected value that is positive for the player. Poker, played against other opponents, is one game that would fit this as while any individual hand is based on chance, the expected value in the long run is positive and the player will be a winner. Optimal play in games in this list will only lower the negative expected value, but not make any player an expected winner.

 

In my opinion, the gambling (and I call this gambling) side of SL had only one skill component: Finding game operators who set up their games with scores to beat that were set too low for the odds they offered. That was the only way to be an expected winner. In a very limited ecosystem, I don't see this happening like at the beginnings of SL.

 

 

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irihapeti wrote:


Sorina Garrigus wrote:

Oddly Arkansas apparetly refers to games of chance as "games of hazzard"


the origin of the word is quite old. was a dice game called Hazard from the way back. 14th century England about. The game was simplified when it came to America to become the game of craps as is played today

the word hazard is french. and seems like it came from the olde spanish word azar which means a unfortunate turn/roll of card/dice

in the english the general meaning mostly means an engagement with a event of which the outcome is unpredictable leading to misfortune. like playing with matches and petrol is hazardous for example

in gambling terms then can say that games like poker, blackjack, backgammon, cribbage, euchre, bridge, etc are games of hazard. Where while is a element of skill the games are a hazard bc of the chance element. roll of dice. turn of card. shuffle and deal. etc

Games of Hazzard. Does sound rather old worldy. Just it seems odd it is used today.

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gotohellworld wrote:

So let me get this straight... game creators had to submit their games to lawyers who had to certify that the games are not games where chance is involved in either as a part or as a whole? Looking at the list of games approved, how could any serious lawyer approve them?

 

Just like how the initial gambling ban was a fiasco since pretty much nothing changed after it (except the removal of poker and slot machines), this implementation, especially with the involvement of lawyers, is a joke. As much as I would love the gambling situation to be back prior to the initial ban, I can only say that I'm disappointed at how the new "ban" is being implemented.

Realistically they should have introduced skill regions back in 2007. Or again when they changed the age requirements in SL.

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Phil Deakins wrote:


gotohellworld wrote:

So let me get this straight... game creators had to submit their games to lawyers who had to certify that the games are not games where chance is involved in either as a part or as a whole? Looking at the list of games approved, how could any serious lawyer approve them?

A degree of chance is allowed in skill games, but only a relatively small degree.

The thing is, if a lawyer testifies (on paper) that a game is in compliance with the rules, then LL thinks they're corporate back is covered should the law raise its head. From LL's point of view, they don't care one way or the other about chance and skill. They only care about covering themselves. That's my opinion, anyway. Personally, I think they are fooling themselves if that's what they think.

Some laws say a game has to be 51% skill based. It varies state to state of course.

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Sorina Garrigus wrote:



Games of Hazzard. Does sound rather old worldy. Just it seems odd it is used today.

the word hazard does remove the confusion/argument between a game of chance and a game of skill by introduce a 3rd category

is a game of chance like roulette. a game of skill like chess. games that contain elements of both are games of hazard

strictly speaking only games of skill are allowed in SL. Which would seem to rule out both games of chance and games of hazard. At least by some jurist definitions depending on jurisdiction

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