Prim and sculpts clothing is obsolete?

[Zantyago Mannonen]

With the arrival of mesh I have the impression that prim stuff will be less and less desired as time goes by...

 

Or isnt?

as a maker who still hasnt got skill in rigged mesh, I find this important

[Jenni Darkwatch]

Prims are just too limited in their abilities. Mesh as it is still isn't as useful as it should be, until LL releases their new system in a decade or two.

Eventually however... you'll have to adapt and learn. SL's tech is still more or less ancient, and so is rigged mesh with its current incarnation. It'll only get more complex as time goes by, not less complex.

[Amethyst Jetaime]

I think that rigged mesh is far superior to sculpts for clothing and so may replace sculpted clothing but system clothing and flexi prims still have their places. 

Sometimes its best to wear system clothing under mesh, for example a shirt under a jacket, a bra under a shirt, or if you wear boots  and want your jeans tucked in. You can sometimes find mesh jackets that come with a mesh shirt under it, but if you don't buy it together you have to wear a larger size for the jacket if you can wear one at all over a mesh shirt.  The larger size can make your top look out of proportion or noticably larger than normal.

Flexi prims still have their place too.  Mesh is stiff and not good for times when a flowing look is desired. I have seen many formals that use mesh for the base dress and flexi prims as an over skirt and still see many best selling ballgowns using flexi prims exclusively.  Same with hair.  Personally I don't like mesh hair unless its an updo or a style constrained in some way.  Loose mesh hair is stiff and unnatural looking by itself particularly long styles.. For long hair I still wear flexi hair or a combination of mesh and flexi to get a more natural movement.  Yes I realize flexi's go through the body but I'd rather have that than a head of hair that looks like it was made out playdoh or that looks like you way too much hair product on it.

Just as a personal observation, many of the public places I go where there are a large number of avatars I still see half or more people wearing traditional clothing and flexi hair - not mesh. A look at what sells on MP shows that system layer clothes and/or flexi prims still sell well too.  Some I know don't wear mesh at all because they refuse to change their shape and the so called standard sizes or any other clothes they've tried doesn't fit.

So mesh is just another option we have at this point.  I don't see mesh completely replacing other types, other than sculpted, anytime in the foreseeable future, even if LL manages to get the new collision bones and / or deformer working.

 

[Zantyago Mannonen]

I am in the process of learning mesh.... slowly so for its resulting quite painful, since there isnt much support with 3ds Max

So far I have somewhat mastered solid non-rigged mesh for architectural objects

[Pussycat Catnap]

Rigged and even unrigged mesh is not perfect.

 

But it looks a LOT better than anything before it.

Crisp lines and clean textures - unlike sculpties that always seemed to have some spots on them that looked slightly... melted...

And unlike 'body paint clothes' you can have fabric that doesn't ride up your butt-crack or into the cleavage.

Granted because the deformer was not chosen, and the coming collision system is still in testing - rigged mesh can have fitting issues.

 

This has caused insanely disproportionate levels of drama from people who believe their shape is sacred... even though you only need to get a few dials 'in line' with those used by the mesh maker, and most shapes already do come pretty close to one of the so-called "standard sizes".

- Half the time, tweaking a shape to fit the nearest one for these dials:

Women:
Body Fat
Torso Muscle
Breast Size
Love Handles
Belly Size
Leg Muscle
Butt Size
Saddle Bags

Men:
Body Fat
Belly Size
Torso Muscle
Love Handles
Leg Muscle
Butt Size
Saddle Bags
Package
Pectorals

makes only a trivial impact.

It can only become a notable issue when trying to fit to a rigged mesh limb that was made for a non-standard shape.

 

Non-mesh clothing is more or less shifting over to the realm of freebies and discount malls.

 

Hair is often best dones as a hybrid of mesh and flexi - unless its braids or dreads which are stiff.

That said - there are a number of animated mesh tails on the market, which show that you can make mesh move independantly of rigging.

 

[Rolig Loon]

FWIW, I have been very disappointed in the few mesh items I have bought, and refuse to wear most of them.  I object to the fact that I am expected to reshape my body to match whatever shape the clothing designer has created -- usually with a bigger butt and heavier breasts than the shape I have spent 7 years cultivating.  I already put up with enough of that nonsense from designers in RL. I don't need it in SL too.

I also object to the fact that I cannot sit in mesh skirts.  Having absolutely nothing under my skirt is unrealistic.  I do not normally invite people to look up my skirt, but I find it disconcerting to peer up there and see a total void.  Yes, I know that I can't sit in a prim skirt or a system skirt either.  The skirt looks funny as it sags through my chair, but at least I have legs.

Mesh clothing doesn't flow.  It clings to my body like a rubber suit or, as someone else said, like Play Doh.  I can make a flexi skirt that swirls and bounces properly as I dance, that swishes as I walk, and that has an interesting flow of textures on overlapping panels.  A mesh skirt can't do that.

I like to mix and match, making my own outifts by using one creator's blouse and another's skirt.  I can't do that easily with mesh because each designer has his own silly idea of what my shape should be.  I have to buy whole outfits and live with them.

The list goes on, and it adds up to a big disappointment. As long as designers continue to make quaility prim and system clothes, I'll buy.  I'll also keep making my own, even if I am only making them for myself. I have made clothing in SL since 2007,and I am skilled enough with Blender to make mesh clothing instead of prim and system clothing.  I make plenty of other mesh items.  I am discouraged enough about mesh clothing, though, that I will not be creating any of my own.  I told myself years ago that I would not sell any clothing that I would not be proud to wear myself. I see no reason to change that position now.

[Madelaine McMasters]

I haven't done much shopping since mesh arrived, and own only one mesh piece, a pencil skirt from Mon Tissue that uses mesh to replace the prim panel and glitch pants to make the bulk of the skirt.

Like you, I've been disappointed in the demo mesh stuff I've tried. There's enough spare room in the tops to hold two loaves of pumperknickel. And I had the same problem trying to mix and match, with skirt tops poking through jacket bottoms. I'm still quite happy with the prim and flexy ball gown I got for L$25 years ago., and grin at the hyperenergetic swishing of the skirt on another.

I'm still working through the more than two dozen pairs of classic pumps I bought shortly after getting married more than 20 years ago. I like what I like, that doesn't change much, and mesh isn't there yet. And unless some sort of deformer arrives, I don't see that changing.

[Pussycat Catnap]

Mesh has some fit problems. I would argue that they are less severe than the fit problems of pre-mesh.

 

Skirts: Mesh moves with your body parts. Flexi falls through your body parts. Neither is ideal - personally I find the fall through, or clipping, much worse. It looks really super strange to see somebody's legs flying right through their dress or skirt.

The sitting thing is even more extreme here - flexi just goes right down, and you end up with legs. But yes on short skirts, which I don't really buy anymore, mesh can look odd.

That said, just as you wouldn't sit there in a mini with your legs apart while going commando in RL... no need to do that in SL. I have bought some leggings, swimsuits, and undergarments specifically for the purpose of wearing them under such outfits. For this one can wear a size smaller than the outer piece to usually avoid popthrough. Or, as with the leggings sold by coldlogic - wear the one specifically made to be worn under dresses.

 

As long as one buys from places that put the 'Standard Sizes' logo on their products - you can at least have consistent results. Look for the actual logo - some places sell sizes that have the same initials, but are a different system. There are 3 sizing systems popular in mesh. The 'standard sizes', and ones from two low-cost template makers. One of those template makers has recently moved to standard sizes, the other - has her own internal system that is not consistent even between her own products. But all three use the same 'initials' for their sizes.

So look for the logo.

The XSS and XS sizes are smaller in chest and buttocks. Though yes, none of the female sizes will offer a 'boyish' figure lacking any curves. Though for taller avatars this can be re-gained once you hit the awkward stretched stage - above 6'6" or so, but then you have T-rex arms (if your avatar's fingers don't reach midway down her thighs, they are too short - get out of the chair, stand straight, and see where one's own fingers reach (if thin enough to do so without an angle being added)).

 

[Amethyst Jetaime]

---

Pussycat Catnap wrote:

This has caused insanely disproportionate levels of drama from people who believe their shape is sacred... even though you only need to get a few dials 'in line' with those used by the mesh maker, and most shapes already do come pretty close to one of the so-called "standard sizes".

---

Absolutely not true. If you aren't into big boobs and butts and prefer having a more slender avatar you are mostly out of luck.  I have found some mesh that fits me correctly and do wear it if I think it is an improvement over system clothes, but tons of the mesh I have tried makes my shape look completely different.

Its only "insanely disproportionate levels of drama from people who believe their shape is sacred" if you don't care about maintaining your unique shape and a consistent appearance just as long as you're wearing the 'latest' thing, or you are into the big boob and butt look.  Also I have tried mesh clothes from various shops specifically labeled as standard sizes but that don't all fit the same. If a XS fits me from one designer without changing the appearance of my shape, the same size from another designer or even the same designer may give me much bigger boobs.

"Standard Sizing" is a misnomer and just a marketing term that is used by a group of mesh creators to promote a set of measurements they came up with based on a survey of a very small number of avatars that did not represent a large portion of residents.  Its sole purpose is to get people to buy mesh clothes before there is a good fitting system available for it that makes the clothes conform to the avatar.

What Rolig refers to and many object to is skirts where the alpha makes the entire are of your avatar under the skirt disappear.  Wearing something under the skirt doesn't solve this unless you use complete leggings and that is not appropriate all the time. Many formals make your entire avatar from the waist down disappear.  If you lift your leg up while dancing it gives a disconcerting view of absolutely nothing under your skirt except your prim feet floating around at the bottom. Leggings are obviously not appropriate for formals.

Non mesh clothing is still being made.  It is not being regulated to the bargain basement or freebie bins except in a few stores by designers that now only do mesh clothes.  Even a number of top designers doing mesh now still make and sell traditional clothes at normal prices right beside their mesh offerings or just in a different department that is on equal footing with their mesh. 

You have a vested interest in converting people to wearing only mesh and to standard sizes since you sell standard size shapes.  As a result you have a tendency to greatly discount the drawbacks of mesh clothing.  I am not opposed to mesh by any means, but it is not appropriate for everything and everybody at this point in time or for the forseeable future and so there is still a healthy market for traditionl clothing.

[Rolig Loon]

It sounds like Amethyst and I are on the same wavelength here.  The issue is not mesh vs. anti-mesh, putting my own rhetoric to the side.  It's deeper than that.  It's an issue that women deal with in RL all the time. 

We like to look our best.  Everyone does.  There is a basic struggle, though, between those who believe that we look our best by paying attention to our bodies and those who feel that clothing and jewelry are the answer.  Clearly both are important, but which comes first?  Whether in SL or RL, I choose to make my body fit my own perception of "proper proportions" and then find clothing that looks good on it.  Clothing designers think first about what makes a "well proportioned" dress and then hope that the right woman finds it or is willing to squeeze herself into it.

"Standard sizes" mean just as little in SL mesh clothing as they do in RL.  There is no such thing as a S, M, or L, just as there's no real "size 8".  We take our chances.  The big difference in SL is that there are fewer choices.  Designers have decided that the right proportions in any size have big butts and breasts, and wide shoulders.  They are designing for the teenage male fantasy woman.

I have tried on demo mesh outfits in many shops.  There's some pretty stuff out there that I would love to wear, but I'm not going to buy it if it gives me a shape that is someone else's idea of what I should look like.  I'm sorry.  I am not going to "tweak" my shape to look like someone's size M, just as I'm not going to go on crash diets and wear restrictive underwear to make myself a size 8 in RL.  And I rebel at wearing alpha layers to keep people from seeing the real me poking through -- complete with real legs under my skirts. I'll stick with prim clothing and system clothes that conform to me.  There are plenty of talented designers in SL who sell them.

[Madelaine McMasters]

---

Rolig Loon wrote:

"Standard sizes" mean just as little in SL mesh clothing as they do in RL.  There is no such thing as a S, M, or L, just as there's no real "size 8".

---

No kidding. There are two ways I can lose a dress size:

1. Eat less/exercise more.
2. Wait five years for the "standard" dress sizes to be adjusted down another notch.

I weigh the same as when I was in college, but I'm now 2 sizes smaller. My neighbor has lost four dress sizes while finding 10 extra pounds.

[Theresa Tennyson]

---

Zantyago Mannonen wrote:

With the arrival of mesh I have the impression that prim stuff will be less and less desired as time goes by...

 

Or isnt?

 

as a maker who still hasnt got skill in rigged mesh, I find this important

---

Note that this isn't a question about the philosophy of beauty, or whether mesh or prims are "better", but simply a merchant wondering about the stability of a market.

Mesh clothes have problems, of course.

So do system/prim clothes. Huge ones. Holes you can drive a truck through.

I remember three years ago when I was starting in SL. My avatar was basically a character I was playing and as I'm a theatrical costume designer in RL I of course paid a lot of attention to her wardrobe.

So I found myself diving headfirst into the world of glitch pants, crotch flaps, skirts that split into petals when she walked and rigid cone-shaped attachments that whonked through her body when she leaned over.

I was not impressed.

However, I gradually got decent at manipulating things, mostly because I didn't have a choice.I spent afternoons fine-tuning attachment sizes and locations to minimize clipping issues. I learned to avoid horizontal stripes, not because they aren't slimming but because they tended to break into smeary "W"'s when she moved. And in time I was able to put together a wardrobe that suited my avatar, who was a rather scrawny teenager. I learned not to spend a lot on any given item of clothing, though, and her closet inventory is littered with many items that she doesn't wear because I could never get them to look acceptable.

When mesh came out I didnt'  pay much attention because my avatar was clearly the wrong shape. However, recently I decided that after three years and learning so much about SL that my avatar would have grown up so I started making Grown-Up Theresa. (She can still be a teen, mind you, as well as being 12, 7 or one of several of her late ancestors.)

It happened that her new shape was fairly close to a standard mesh size so I started looking into mesh clothing. I wasn't crazy about tweaking my work but I discovered that most of the adjustments actually made her look better.The clothes themselves look MUCH better.  And with mesh clothes I find myself willingly spending much more because I can TRY THEM ON FIRST. By now Grown-Up Theresa's wardrobe is almost entirely mesh.

I imagine when most people starting from scratch in SL are given a choice between the compromises necessary to use mesh clothing and the compromises necessary to use traditional clothing they'll choose the mesh route.

Prim-and-system clothes won't completely disappear but I see them becoming a niche product. It's similar to what happened to horses when cars were introduced - they didn't become extinct but they became much less common and were only used for a handful of their previous roles.

I'd give the original poster the same advice I'd give a neighborhood blacksmith of 1916 who was wondering about learning automobile repair - It would be more practical to learn about new things than to stay in a niche that's already saturated with people and has started shrinking. In fact, as long as you're learning about rigging mesh I'd suggest you learn how to rig to "collision bones" which will give you a head start when "fitted mesh" clothing starts being a big thing.

[Jenni Darkwatch]

Mesh clothing is a polarizing topic as this thread shows. I'd like to add a few considerations though:

System clothing doesn't support materials. Right now not all that many people can see those, but the number will increase.

Mesh is still in its infancy. A few days ago I finally updated my human avi which still had the same look as it did 4 years ago. What a difference! And what a huge, HUGE pain in the hiney. My normal shape is non-humanoid btw.

When sculpts came out, people complained and swore they'd never use it. When mesh came out people complained and swore they'd never use it. Same with just about anything SL added: Voice, windlight, you name it. But in the end, the majority adapted as creators skills improved. I'd keep that in mind. Stagnant creators perish. Innovative creators flourish.

Learning new skills is never bad. Not in RL, not in SL. There's still plenty of room for improvement. Current mesh clothing is by and large horribly made. Too many vertices, no LOD consideration, lousy fit... the list goes on. Go ahead. Learn. Blow people away with creativity.

[Rolig Loon]

Thank you, Theresa.  That is a very good argument.  I suddenly feel quite a bit older. 

The situation is indeed very much like that of the blacksmith in 1916, and the OP would be well advised to learn the skills necessary in the new market.  Putting my own feelings about mesh clothing aside, I recognize that what you say is correct.  Newcomers to SL today have no body image to preserve.  They come to a world in which mesh clothing is popular and omnipresent, so it is natural that they will expect any modern clothing shop to carry it.  The OP should indeed plan on making and selling mesh.

The OP's question went beyond that, of course.  He asked whether prim and sculpty clothing are obsolete.  I still say emphatically NO (well, sculpty clothing is, but not prim clothing).  It's not just aging fuddy-duddies like me that wear prim skirts and system blouses.  As you point out, each style has its advantages.  As I have said before, for example, people who are looking for a good skirt that swishes gently as you walk won't find it in mesh.  Only flexi prims can do that trick.  A mesh skirt follows you like an amoeba on a leash.  I'd like to believe that there will always be a market for a good flexi skirt, and I'd advise the OP to learn that skill as he works on his mesh skills too.

Life moves on.  I still drive a car with a standard transmission, but I recognize that today's automatics actually get better gas mileage, so I'm likely to switch next time.  I still prefer good folding money with pictures of presidents on them, but more and more of my purchases show up on the monthly credit card bill.  So, mesh clothing is not only here to stay, but it's the wave of the future.  I won't be wearing it myself, but it would be silly to deny that it's just the right thing for someone else.

My heartfelt response to the OP, though, is not to give up on prims and system clothing.  A tailor who has more than one needle will always have an advantage in the marketplace. There will always be a role for a good blacksmith too.  If I remember correctly, there are more horses in the U.S. today than there were in 1916.

(Now, you kids get off my lawn!)

 

 

[Zantyago Mannonen]

Thanks for the imput.... and I was worried because I was worried that my work would go to waste (even if it helped me earn some thousands of lindens though the years)

 

I can handle mesh but I still haven't cracked a way to rig it.. all my 3ds formation is by my own means and sometimes leaves holes,

 

btw anyone can IM me if they wish to talk me to.

[Pussycat Catnap]

---

Amethyst Jetaime wrote:

---

Pussycat Catnap wrote:

This has caused insanely disproportionate levels of drama from people who believe their shape is sacred... even though you only need to get a few dials 'in line' with those used by the mesh maker, and most shapes already do come pretty close to one of the so-called "standard sizes".

---

Absolutely not true. If you aren't into big boobs and butts and prefer having a more slender avatar you are mostly out of luck.

Its only "insanely disproportionate levels of drama from people who believe their shape is sacred" if you don't care about maintaining your unique shape and a consistent appearance just as long as you're wearing the 'latest' thing, or you are into the big boob and butt look.

"Standard Sizing" is a misnomer and just a marketing term that is used by a group of mesh creators to promote a set of measurements they came up with based on a survey of a very small number of avatars

What Rolig refers to and many object to is skirts where the alpha makes the entire are of your avatar under the skirt disappear.

Non mesh clothing is still being made.

You have a vested interest in converting people to wearing only mesh and to standard sizes since you sell standard size shapes. As a result you have a tendency to greatly discount the drawbacks of mesh clothing.

---

I made those shapes a year and a half into things, long after I had changed to mesh. The ones I made serve a different purpose: To prove that the standard sizes are compatable with proportionate shapes. That's also proof that shapes can vary by an extreme amount and still be the same 'standard size' because mine are about 1-2 FEET shorter than the ones given out in the standard sizes dev kit.

I don't discount - I'm just not into the sort of strange anti-mesh paranoia some have.

- I gave a good listing of issues each format suffers up there.

 

If you have a boy's figure, no boobs or butt - then sure none of the sizes will work. But they're pretty far ranging otherwise. But otherwise, standard sizes starts bust size at 32, butt at 24. Hardly big.

 

Are they the sizes I would have made if I had come up with the system? No. My first blog on them was quite critical of them:

http://catnapkitty.wordpress.com/2012/02/23/standard-sizing-package-for-mesh-clothing-design-good-or-bad-idea-or-a-bit-of-both-3/

 

But they HAVE become a standard now. And if one looks for the logo, one can get reliable results. LOOK FOR THE LOGO.

We've been having this conversation over and over again for a year now... and I keep telling you the same thing:

Look for the standard sizes LOGO.

Or even fact check a maker's claim on the standard sizes website:

http://bloggingsecondlife.wordpress.com/the-stores-creators-lists/mesh-stores-using-standard-sizing/

(which you will note, does NOT list me.)

 

I've gotten as specific as I can without naming names and shaming two designers on these forums. There are two mesh template makers that make items in sizes they label the same way as the standard sizes... but which are not. Not only that, one of them is inconsistent with herself.

Other people have named them on these forums - in threads I have even responded to. Some with screenshots.

One of them has gone on to correct, but still sells older products with the sizing initials but not the logo. Thankfully neither of these two tries to use the logo with their products that use the size initials but on unique sizing systems.

People who buy their templates "might" try to put the logo back in... and should be called on it. And this is why a person new to mesh would do well to check the link I just posted above when buying from an unknown brand...

(or you know... try their demo, and if its wrong, call them on it. Personally I know the work of the two faulty template makers enough to recognize it on products I see.)

 

As for the skirt thing - I've given you an example of a product that addresses that exact need. So now you are just rehashing a fear without investigating. Yes there are times when you want bare legs under a skirt - but this is a problem that is even worse on flexi skirts which glitch through... Neither mesh nor flexi is perfect here - and that is just a fact of the amount of calculations needed to do actual 'collision detection' making it nonviable in real time 'gaming'.

 

A LOT of people are now wearing this stuff with no issues at all. Are we all lying to ourselves? I am imagining that I am able to use 1 shape for a good several hundred different mesh items in my inventory? Are others imagining this for their shapes?

(I actually keep 3 shapes - as I have some items from the two aforementioned template makers I kept anyway. Though as one is not consistent with herself, I've since become more cautious)

Are all of the masses of people that crowd into the monthly mesh fashion events lying to themselves that they can buy anything off any rack, put it on, and go about their SL time with no hassle?

 

Ask yourself why a few here seem to be having a problem so many others do not?

 

[Coby Foden]

---

Jenni Darkwatch wrote:

 

Current mesh clothing is by and large horribly made. Too many vertices, no LOD consideration, lousy fit... the list goes on. Go ahead. Learn. Blow people away with creativity.

---

Yes, there are lots of very bad mesh clothing around. Finding something that fits nicely is a pain and takes a lot of time trying demo after demo. Standard sizing does not seem to be very standard. Sometimes XS sort of fits, sometimes S sort of fits, sometimes M. By "sort of fits" I mean that there still are gaps where one can see inside from the edges. I have tried tons of mesh clothing from different designers with very little luck in finding nicely fitting ones.

However, on very rare occasions I have struck a gold mine. Perfectly fitting and good mesh without touching my shape. Those rare moments are golden experiences. Just to show a couple of examples. Mesh can be awesome! :smileyhappy:

On the left: Mesh coat, mesh skirt - they are from different designers, and still they work well together. The coat hemline goes nicely over the skirt top edge. The skirt does not poke throught the coat.

On the right: Mesh top, mesh skirt - both made by the same designer. The skirt has nicely made closed inside. So looking under there it hides the void created by the alpha mask. One can sit with it without any worries. Perfect. Even more, the skirt waistline has a perfect fit on my avatar body. No gaps there at all. Pretty excellent.

 

When we will finally get the fitting mesh on which the Lab is working now - and when the designers will learn to use materials well, then the mesh clothing will be great, approaching awesomeness. Surely there still will be need for some system clothes and naturally need for flexi prim clothing and flexi hairs.

[Tari Landar]

A lot of times the reason mesh doesn't seem to "fit" properly, is because the alpha is made wrong. Since creators include the alphas(ok, most do) people(especially new people) will assume the mesh is simply made poorly when they see gaps, holes or skin poking through.

That's a huge hurdle to overcome, for mesh anyway. Some creators do truly suck at making alphas. I'm not certain why, or how they don't notice. But I do think that, in some cases anyway, they don't really look all that closely at the article and keep an eye out for such gaps. Some creators, especially those who do not create their own mesh, use an alpha someone else made. Often times, that alpha just isn't made right. That's what typically leads to people needing to make additional adjustments to their shape that they probably don't want to make.

For some folks, this isn't a problem. For some, it is. There really is no universal standard sized alphas, because mesh varies, even if only slightly. I have some alphas I made that I know will fit a certain style of shirt, or dress, since those are the mesh items I have that cause the most problems. It's usually gaps right where the top meets the breast. Places where gaps just look horrid(they really do). Those are also places that if I continue to edit my shape to remove the gap because of a poorly made alpha, it can distort my shape enough that I just don't like it. That's not always the case, but it's the main reason I really don't like a lot of mesh. The alpha, if made badly, will give the entire outfit(and creator) a bad rep with someone.

It's not that difficult to make an alpha, but people new to sl may not know this. Then again, some people feel that they shouldn't NEED to make a new alpha. When someone has all their numbers set correctly, as per the advertised sizing method, the outfit should fit right out of the box. All of the numbers/settings that wouldn't normally make any difference in an outfit, should have absolutely no bearing on whether or not an outfit fits. But if an alpha is made poorly, they can. That frustrates people, and it frustrates new people even more.

I honestly think sometimes creators take so much time and care in texturing their mesh items(this really goes double for people who use templates they texture that others have made) they may not even pay attention to little details....like gaps, holes, skin poking through just slightly. Some of us are **bleep** retentive enough to see it right off the bat and realizing that we'll, again, have to tweak our settings to fit anothers' "ideal" and it's a huge turnoff. I know that's what frustrates me most. I hate having to make a new alpha because someone else didn't take care in making theirs. It's obnoxious, and really shouldn't be a necessary step. I have never minded having to make adjustments to prim clothes, and wouldn't mind needing to, say move , mesh bits to fit properly(if needed, and of course, possible). But having to make a whole new alpha...nah. I don't want to do that.

Aside from that, the whole standard sizes thing just annoys the living crap out of me. Some people INSIST to the point of causing nausea, that there is only one really true set..with a couple others thrown in for good measure. I have tried on so many demos since mesh came to be I could start my own demo factory and would need several sims to do so. There is a lot more "standard sizing" going on out there and sometimes the differences are really subtle. For someone who doesn't necessarily have to tweak too much, you probably wouldn't even notice subtle differences. For someone who has to tweak more than a couple numbers in any direction, you just might notice. If I have a shape set to all of the numbers specifically listed for a certain standard(I am going to use the most common, aka, those who use the logo, standard) then ALL outfits in that size ought to fit me with no need to tweak. That's not the case. With bottoms, I rarely have any problems. It's the tops people don't pay attention to. That's where I find the most differences, even if they're just minor and will require one number here, one number there, etc.. But that brings me back to my first statements...it's usually the alpha causing it and NOT the mesh.

Occasionally it's how the mesh is rigged. I've found some creators are either not rigging things right(I'm honestly not sure how they're doing it wrong) or something else is up. Tops that fit just about everywhere, shouldn't cut into shoulders, as if the height placement is off. How that setting can be so off, when everything else would fit just fine if the top were raised up just a bit, is beyond me. No editing of one's shape will make that shirt/top fit. It will always cut into the shoulders. I only know because I've tried, several times, to figure out why/how it does it. There is absolutely no dial you can tweak that will make a top that does this, fit properly(ok, no dial I can tweak for any of the tops I have that do this..your mileage may vary). So that tells me it's something in how the person rigged it/made it. I'm just not a seasoned vet when it comes ot making mesh so I'm not sure exactly how they get it that wrong(or why they put it out there, so wrong, to begin with, but that's neither here nor there, really).

That's my long winded way of saying, sometimes when mesh seems like it doesn't fit, ok a lot of times, it's not the mesh, it's the alpha. I honestly find that to be a huge turnoff, even if I love the creator. I won't buy their stuff if I have to continually adjust an alpha. No matter how well made, beautiful, or even awesome their stuff actually is. If I have to go through even more work, just to wear it, I won't return.

As for prims and system clothing going obsolete...absolutely not. There are enough of us left, even if we DO wear mesh too, who love and purchase it regularly. They will all have their place and yes it would do creators well to learn how to utilize all the tools given them and not just a select few, or less. They'll broaden their own customer base and that's never a bad thing. System clothes will ALWAYS have their appeal. Prim clothes will too, especially in the dress industry, because frankly mesh just can't do what prims can do. Even the most beautiful mesh, cannot do what many women(and even men who enjoy looking at beautiful women in dresses) want their dresses to do....flow. At least not yet. When mesh can do this, then those prim dress/skirt makers may find themselves concerned. Until then, those dress makers will continue on making prim skirts/dresses because there us a HUGE audience for them. Despite what some might say, neither prims nor system clothes will ever go obsolete unles LL finds a way to intentionally MAKE them obsolete(the general public never will). Go to a lot of full, active, formal places and while you will see mesh, you'll also see an awful lot of flowing gowns.

All methods for creation will always have both down and upsides. No method is perfect for everyone. Sl is a vast virtual world, and just as different as each individual user. We all have likes and dislikes and even if we share some similarities, none of us are exactly the same as another. We're like odd snowflakes....because we're all just a wee bit odd...even if our differences are very subtle and can't be seen by the naked eye.

[Poenald Palen]

Prims and mesh are not easily mixed for many builds.

Though the sculpt studio maker guy, maybe others, did make a prim to mesh thingy that helps a lot to use priims you are still technically ending up with mesh after you bring those exports into your 3d prog and add to them.

As far as clothing goes, anyway. So, people saying they have really great builds in prims and don't see the point in upgrading to mesh sort of can upgrade those by exporting them using that software or another that does the same.

Hard to say priims are obsolete for anything in the whole of SL, but for many things I suppose they are.

Prims do load quickly though. So for boxes or simple things that prims work well to make it may work well enough to not bother meshing something up and uploading it. Cheaper and quicker sometimes. But for clothes? Well, maybe a bracelet? But even that might have some bump mapping sort of enhancement these days and a prim isn't mapped to easily to mimic and get good textures for, so you end up just using mesh and it ends up with lower impact as well. So, yeah....for clothes I guess they are.

Sculpts? Maybe not entirely, they may have a better impact count or prim count, but I am not sure.