Why do they do it?

[Jennifer Boyle]

Today, I decided to make an alpha mask for a nice mesh dress I bought because the one that came with it shows above the neckline.  As usual, the otherwise very accommodating creator didn't include a copy of the alpha mask texture, but it occurred to me that, since only the upper tattoo needed altering, I could save a little work by just changing the upper tattoo and leaving the lower alone.  Nope!  The alpha mask was nit modifiable!  So I'll have to start completely from scratch.

I just do not understand why designers don 't take better care of there customers regarding alpha masks.  First, as we have discussed in the forums in the past, the alpha masks that come with nice clothes are often sloppily made, so the consumer has to make her own if she wants to look good.  It would cost nothing to make the alpha mask modifiable and include the texture, and it would lead to greater customer satisfaction, which is to a seller's advantage.  So why is it hardly ever done?  Is there something I'm missing, or do most designers just not understand the issue?

[Alicia Sautereau]

Because it`s most likely a full perm template and they have no clue how to do it them selfs...

[Rolig Loon]

I think Alicia's got it.  The "creators" who are putting a lot of mesh clothing in the market are only creating things in the "paint by numbers" sense of the word.  They are working blindly with a kit.  Fortunately, you are experienced enough to know how to make your own alpha mask -- maybe a 5 minute job in GIMP or Photoshop.  A lot of buyers can't do that. 

[Drake1 Nightfire]

---

Jennifer Boyle wrote:

Today, I decided to make an alpha mask for a nice mesh dress I bought because the one that came with it shows above the neckline.  As usual, the otherwise very accommodating creator didn't include a copy of the alpha mask texture, but it occurred to me that, since only the upper tattoo needed altering, I could save a little work by just changing the upper tattoo and leaving the lower alone.  Nope!  The alpha mask was nit modifiable!  So I'll have to start completely from scratch.

I just do not understand why designers don 't take better care of there customers regarding alpha masks.  First, as we have discussed in the forums in the past, the alpha masks that come with nice clothes are often sloppily made, so the consumer has to make her own if she wants to look good.  It would cost nothing to make the alpha mask modifiable and include the texture, and it would lead to greater customer satisfaction, which is to a seller's advantage.  So why is it hardly ever done?  Is there something I'm missing, or do most designers just not understand the issue?

---

As someone who does buy the "mesh kits", and spends hours if not days making my own textures for them, per most of the creators ToU we can not give any part of the kit full perm. Personally i test all of the alphas with a few friends before i put it on the MP, but there will always be a shape that just wont fit. That is not something we can do anything about. I do mod the alphas if needed, but still can't give the textures full perm.

[Sassy Romano]

No but you can make a new alpha that's the same and supply it full perm.

[Jennifer Boyle]

Drake1 Nightfire wrote:

As someone who does buy the "mesh kits", and spends hours if not days making my own textures for them, per most of the creators ToU we can not give any part of the kit full perm. Personally i test all of the alphas with a few friends before i put it on the MP, but there will always be a shape that just wont fit. That is not something we can do anything about. I do mod the alphas if needed, but still can't give the textures full perm.

---

 

You could sell an alpha mask texture you made from scratch yourself full perm.  You would be doing the same amount of work that every one of your customers who needs a better-fitting alpha mask has to do.  If consumers can make them for their own use, it should be easy enough for designers to make them from scratch.

My shape is a standard size small.  In addition, I routinely tweak a copy to get a better fit with an individual clothing item.  If clothing won't work with a standard shape that is tweaked to fit the clothing, then it is not suitable for sale.

[Jennifer Boyle]

---

Rolig Loon wrote:

I think Alicia's got it.  The "creators" who are putting a lot of mesh clothing in the market are only creating things in the "paint by numbers" sense of the word.  They are working blindly with a kit.  Fortunately, you are experienced enough to know how to make your own alpha mask -- maybe a 5 minute job in GIMP or Photoshop.  A lot of buyers can't do that. 

---

More like an hour or more, usually.  There's a lot of cutting and trying when I do it.

[Drake1 Nightfire]

---

Jennifer Boyle wrote:

Drake1 Nightfire wrote:

As someone who does buy the "mesh kits", and spends hours if not days making my own textures for them, per most of the creators ToU we can not give any part of the kit full perm. Personally i test all of the alphas with a few friends before i put it on the MP, but there will always be a shape that just wont fit. That is not something we can do anything about. I do mod the alphas if needed, but still can't give the textures full perm.

---

 

You could sell an alpha mask texture you made from scratch yourself full perm.  You would be doing the same amount of work that

every one

of your customers who needs a better-fitting alpha mask has to do.  If consumers can make them for their own use, it should be easy enough for designers to make them from scratch.

My shape is a standard size small.  In addition, I routinely tweak a copy to get a better fit with an individual clothing item.  If clothing won't work with a standard shape that is tweaked to fit the clothing, then it is not suitable for sale.

---

EWven if we added an alpha we made from scratch there will always be people it wont fit.  I make mine as close to perfect as possible. Even full perm, most customers wont know how to make their own alpha. For those that need a better fitting one i do spend time making one specifically to their needs.

[Rolig Loon]

OK.  Mileage may vary.  My point was that you at least know how to do it yourself, but the average SL resident doesn't. There's nothing magical or proprietory about an alpha mask, so there's no good reason to make them no-mod or no-trans.  They're like bald caps and foot shapers.  I'm agreeing with you that anyone in the business of creating clothing, even those creating from a kit, ought to be able to make a decent full-perm alpha mask.

[Sassy Romano]

---

Drake1 Nightfire wrote:

EWven if we added an alpha we made from scratch there will always be people it wont fit.  I make mine as close to perfect as possible. Even full perm, most customers wont know how to make their own alpha. For those that need a better fitting one i do spend time making one specifically to their needs.

---

That's generous Drake, doing it for those who ask and I agree, most wouldn't know how to make or adjust an alpha but for those who do, it is still easier and quicker to adjust an existing alpha if possible than to have to start again from scratch.

If I see it just needs a bit more coverage in one area, so much quicker to download what already exists, edit an errant bit and save than to have to do it all again and Jennifer's quite right, there's no extra cost if you've already uploaded the alpha texture sources anyway.

[mtwtfss71]

Often times the problem is with the weight painting of the clothing. If that isn't properly done, any alpha will likely show through on certain movements of your avatar. Until we get the deformer, there are always going to be issues like this.

 

I include the alpha and alpha textures full perm with all of my mesh and I test all of the sizes but I know there will never be a perfect fit for all customers. It also surprises me how many customers don't try the demo first.

[Cerise Sorbet]

---

mtwtfss71 wrote:

Often times the problem is with the weight painting of the clothing. If that isn't properly done, any alpha will likely show through on certain movements of your avatar. Until we get the deformer, there are always going to be issues like this.

 

I include the alpha and alpha textures full perm with all of my mesh and I test all of the sizes but I know there will never be a perfect fit for all customers. It also surprises me how many customers don't try the demo first.

---

Deformer does not fix this issue, it can even make clipping issues more obvious because you can't simply take a little meat off the avatar to hide it.

 

 

[Pussycat Catnap]

---

Rolig Loon wrote:

I think Alicia's got it.  The "creators" who are putting a lot of mesh clothing in the market are only creating things in the "paint by numbers" sense of the word.  They are working blindly with a kit.  Fortunately, you are experienced enough to know how to make your own alpha mask -- maybe a 5 minute job in GIMP or Photoshop.  A lot of buyers can't do that. 

---

I don't buy this argument.

If you buy a full perms mesh kit, you still need both skill and talent in Photoshop or Gimp to pretty it up with your choice of art and colors. My own lack of the right skills there has consistently held me back.

Before you dismiss the artistry of those "paint by numbers texture" folks; buy a full perm mesh kit and try to make it look as good as some of the finished results one can find for sale in SL. Not easy. It actually does take some serious skill / artistry.

If you are skilled in coloring things up in Photoshop or Gimp - making an alpha mask is trivial. Its a one color affair. Much easier than making an artistic design for the mesh kit you bought.

 

What I believe we're seeing is that the 'seams' fall in different places for different heights and widths of avatars - even if the mesh more or less stretches similar based on the rigging. An alpha that looks fine on me might not on you.

- This is particularly true when the alpha edge occurs at or near a joint. Such as is common with low-rise pants and skirts. In these cases, the mesh covers the body one way unbent, and another when bent. Making an alpha that will not hide exposed skin when bent, results in the same alpha not covering enough skin when unbent...

The only solution there is unattractive: any mesh that ends near a ben needs to be 'thick' enough at point such that an alpha won't be needed. Which can result in your pants looking rather peculiar right at the edge.

 

[Rolig Loon]

---

Pussycat Catnap wrote:

[ .... ]I don't buy this argument.

If you buy a full perms mesh kit, you still need both skill and talent in Photoshop or Gimp to pretty it up with your choice of art and colors. My own lack of the right skills there has consistently held me back.

---

I'm not as sure about this as you seem to be.  After all, with a full-perm kit you get the UV maps for placing textures on a mesh that someone else has already made and rigged.  From a technical point of view, placing your textures and colors on that UV map is really is not much more difficult than paint by numbers.  From an artistic point of view, yes, it takes much more talent to make the final product look good, but a dismaying amount of the stuff I see in shops today doesn't look as if the "creators" have it.  BTW, you have been working with Photoshop since we first met at least 4 years ago, so I suspect that you have more going for you than you admit. 

---

If you are skilled in coloring things up in Photoshop or Gimp - making an alpha mask is trivial. Its a one color affair. Much easier than making an artistic design for the mesh kit you bought.

---

Exactly what I said. You're right.  So there's nothing difficult or special about an alpha mask.  So why not provide it full perm for at least the few buyers who have the small talent that it takes to modify it?

---

What I believe we're seeing is that the 'seams' fall in different places for different heights and widths of avatars - even if the mesh more or less stretches similar based on the rigging. An alpha that looks fine on me might not on you.

- This is particularly true when the alpha edge occurs at or near a joint. Such as is common with low-rise pants and skirts. In these cases, the mesh covers the body one way unbent, and another when bent. Making an alpha that will not hide exposed skin when bent, results in the same alpha not covering enough skin when unbent...

The only solution there is unattractive: any mesh that ends near a ben needs to be 'thick' enough at point such that an alpha won't be needed. Which can result in your pants looking rather peculiar right at the edge.

 

---

 I think you're probably right about this.  It's at least an interesting possibility.  It doesn't say anything for or against Jennifer's original argument, though, except to emphasize the point that it would be very helpful if buyers could have full perm alpha masks to adjust when they don't fit right.  It's no extra burden on the creator and it would be good customer relations -- especially for those buyers like Jennifer who can adjust a mask if it has the right perms.

[Perrie Juran]

---

Rolig Loon wrote:

---

---

 I think you're probably right about this.  It's at least an interesting possibility.  It doesn't say anything for or against Jennifer's original argument, though, except to emphasize the point that it would be very helpful if buyers could have full perm alpha masks to adjust when they don't fit right.  It's no extra burden on the creator and it would be good customer relations -- especially for those buyers like Jennifer who

can

adjust a mask if it has the right perms.

---

Editing clothes is an art and skill no doubt and if someone wants to take the time to do it I think is fabulous.

I accept the fact that I am going to need to do some editing.

But if a Creator is going to make something no mod, I'm going to put the problem back on them.

Most are responsive.  My shape is full perm and I have no problem sending it to them so they can custom fit for me.  And usually they can do in two minute what might take me an hour. 

If they aren't responsive, I (and my friends) probably won't buy from them again.

[Theresa Tennyson]

---

mtwtfss71 wrote:

Often times the problem is with the weight painting of the clothing. If that isn't properly done, any alpha will likely show through on certain movements of your avatar.

Until we get the deformer

, there are always going to be issues like this.

 

I include the alpha and alpha textures full perm with all of my mesh and I test all of the sizes but I know there will never be a perfect fit for all customers. It also surprises me how many customers don't try the demo first.

---

Actually the deformer won't eliminate the need for alphas or eliminate weight painting issues. I've seen it in operation on InWorldz - it's nice to a point but it's not nearly all it's cracked up to be. Part of the problem is that the weighting on the default avatar is so bad most mesh makers prefer to do more realistic weighting which looks good on the garment but can cause the avatar mesh to poke through.

[Pussycat Catnap]

What I don't get is why alpha masks are not done as system clothes.

Open up SL and choose the option to make a new pair of pants. You get tossed into an old style editor where you can set the length, add bell bottoms, and change the color from white to something else.

- That horrid system, that people "repaired" by applying textures to it, is actually ideal for an alpha mask.

Imagine if you could create a new alpha mask, and then simply get a slider to set its length. That would fix half the issues. Then for alphas that involve shapely cutlines - apply a texture for which yes, a fullperm of the UV map would be handy.

 

As someone who has a number of full perm meshes and their UV maps, texturing them a LOT more complex than just filling in colors. But an alpha map IS that easy.

In buying a fullperm kit, its a good question to wonder if the value is in getting the mesh, the UV, or both. Because if we saw it as the mesh, it would actually be in the interests of fullperm kit makers to release the UV map for free. I believe a few of them actually do this through website links. Not many, but some.

 

[Jennifer Boyle]

---

Pussycat Catnap wrote:

What I don't get is why alpha masks are not done as system clothes.

 

---

What a grreat idea.  I'm going to logon and make a pair of pants with a transparent texture and see what happens.

[Sassy Romano]

I'll save you the bother.  You'll just have invisible pants.

[Jennifer Boyle]

---

Sassy Romano wrote:

I'll save you the bother.  You'll just have invisible pants.

---

Yep!  I was so excited I forgot to think.

Does wearing invisible clothes count as non-nudity?

[Tiffy Vella]

---

Jennifer Boyle wrote:

---

Pussycat Catnap wrote:

What I don't get is why alpha masks are not done as system clothes.

 

---

What a grreat idea.  I'm going to logon and make a pair of pants with a transparent texture and see what happens.

---

rofl  I think I know what happens

[Poenald Palen]

I will say this, there is NOT a problem here BUT an opportunity.

People want traffic in world, not all BUT it helps with listings sometimes and IF customers use word of mouth and let each other know about it a helpful creator, even with templates, may get traffic from being there waiting to assist and then traffic from the customer dropping in to show you the issue!!!

So, let me get this right. Stores owners that don't do all the work on thier items (hey, no problem there it is faster even if you do know how to do it) are refusing traffic, word of mouth advertising, goodwill between them and customers and a shot at being at least the best at something, the best customer service isn't valuable to your companies brand?

BUT WAIT. There's more to this, right? This is a nice excuse, because I feel as if clothing is different. BUT, here it is anyway. ONE (good) argument of why a shop owner doesn't do it?

NO ONE TAKES YOU UP ON THE OFFER BUT LESS THAN 1% of your customers!

I DID this for cars!!! Yes, I speak from experience! Not the leader in customer service, and not my goal. My goal was to offer something more because a) many people do have dream cars BUT if it works well you use it and many of us like many many cars with a fav or two BUT they are all so cool!

I offered custom paint/livery of thier choosing, custom phsyics adjustments to 'fix' or help them have fun AND those sculpts where made by me!! Not someone trying to compensate for not putting in effort in the eyes of a customer. "At leat he does custom work, even though he is not a REAL creator" is NOT the issue here at all. My stuff isn't the greatest looking, heck it is priced accordingly and template guys more or less do little and get to much in my eyes. If they are good at marketing, they win out with little learning curve. BUT, nothing in the world stopped me from also joining them and offering superior under the hood work and customer service, I literally had all day at one time! Why not do it? For me, this is due to harrasment and a few other things, but templates don't appeal to me. The custom work is backed up  in by not only what I offer and say, but what is right in the box. I made that, and can adjust it and change it and that was important to the brand to me. Brand, smrand...NO ONE CARES.

THe only people who care enough and get upset enough do one of two things, spread word of mouth shaming ALL template makers and ALL creators or end up knowing how to do it themselves.

I think less than 1-2% of customers took me up on an offer of custom work. So, in all fairness I can't say NO ONE took me up on it. I can almost count it on one hand though. Yeah, sales are that low.  I assume they didn't read all the text, tl;dr BUT it is mentioned in my profile (which will be removed if not already.

Marketing, sales and maybe even piles of bull pucky lying will get you farther in the short term than being a mediocre creator. Congrats to template buyers on clearing that hurde fast, I wasn't making really really great looking stuff and missed a few features to be a leader in script features. I have seen mediocre+ visuals with good working code and a few features work and they get comparable prices to the "better" cars that mostly are a leader in looks and role play factor with open doors ect.

IF you are a great builder, good at keeping abreast of the market and tech and are hard working then great. Those leave you little time for custom work. BUT, template guys THIS is the differentiator for you...yet they don't do it? If they do they are not being advertising it and marketing it enough, I know this is my issue but now lack the time and am stalked in RL so have few chances to stick around at the store and meet customers. I still tried, endured the hurtful odd comments and realising I was being harrassed again. Sadly, if anyone wanted custom work it did make me wonder if that is the only reason, but I didn't advertise it enough to try and avoid harrasment. Strange, sad and retarding.

Template users crack me up, BUT it works for them! They do little sometimes and get some fun money, ironically the thousands of other failing template makers or maybe just those wanting thier money back all provide super cheap stuff to buy with thier small earnings. The ones putting in custom work are smarter I think, and maybe advertising and fostering word of mouth with some great customer service and meeting people at the store for custom alpha work is a booster. So I mention it, but also leave all the rambling and slight ranting and lamenting to maybe help provide a clear picture of what happened with offering that. I had a few takers, they got some adjustments and seemed happy. One guy seemed to want more cars made by me, so maybe this would have lead to a customer or two more. I only had two cars, so yeah I needed more to really get a good sample to let everyone know how it all worked out.

[AbreeRosati]

While there are many of you that I agree with, I have a few things to add.

 

1.)  Have you seen some of the stuff on the MP?  Not so good.

2.)  If you didn't try a demo that was offered, then you have no right to complain that it didn't fit right.  That was bad on your part.

3.)  Since when did we, as consumers start bashing people's creativity?  Not everyone is talented with 3D mesh programs or photo editing programs but want to put together outfits.   Although, they did not create the mesh items they may be putting together a super cute outfit.  As long as their texturing work isn't garbage it works out fine.

4,) EVEN if a person's creation is in our eyes "garbage", who are we to complain about it?  Don't like it?  Don't buy it.  Didn't try a demo, don't buy it.  Doesn't have a demo?  Ask for one.  If you didn't get the demo, ask for the demo or do anyting with a demo, then you deserve to have to make your own alpha layer.