Who's ready for the Server Side Baking!?

[Amethyst Jetaime]

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Nagachief Darkstone wrote:

I know I am! The effect is twofold for me. :catvery-happy:

First, it (hopefully) means the end of broken avatars.

Second, it forces people to use the latest viewer, which means the special effects and new features I use that accidently crash older viewers can be seen properly! (Several people I know are crashed by me wearing a rigged mesh and they are using snowglobe/1.23/pheonix-based viewer)

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I have news for you.  I have a computer that can easily handle all the bells and whistles just fine but choose to run my graphics at a lower setting and only use advance lighting for pictures or special things.  I do it because it gives me better performance for the every day stuff I do and certainly when I go to crowded events.  I am not alone by far, as evidenced by the replies here and what my friends with even high end computer tell me they do.

Those that can upgrade to a newer viewer but still have the same computer maybe able to see mesh now but probably won't see any of your 'special effects'.  Those whose computers can't run the newer viewers are going to crash permanently out of SL so seeing mesh is moot for them.

Materials are great but few people will be able to see them on a routine basis.  Doubt this will change anytime soon at least until typical computers can handle what very high end computers do now and enough time has past that the majority of people have upgraded to them.  I've been wondering if they are going to be a big selling point because of that.  A mesh build that looks great solely due to all the details materials brings is going to look so-so to many people, pretty much the way 3D build textures do now. 

Don't mistake me. I don't think progress should be held up due to this, but reality is reality and it is sad to think of all the people that will lose their SL as a result.  Nothing to celebrate IMO.

[Tari Landar]

I've never found it wise to relish in the plight of others, regardless of your reasoning behind it. That includes those you find deserving of the plight, even the miniscule sort. Karma's a real **bleep** sometimes

My pc, well pcs are about as ready as they'll ever be. I can run on ultra, use all the bells and whistles, but choose not to. So typically new stuff doesn't have a whole lot of impact on me. I feel a bit sad for those it does. I don't think anyone ought to judge their reasons, either.

..just a general reponse, as the delight in others soon missing out, isn't just on these forums.

[Trinity Yazimoto]

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KarenMichelle Lane wrote:

I've been "Beta Server Side Baked" and am so ready for Mainline Server Side Baking - Bring it on Sunshine!

I truly am sorry for those people who are still utilizing Snowglobe technology. SL has been broken for you for a long time but the past is the past and the old ways are no longer.

I noticed a few comments about the "Selfish" POV of those who are prepared for SSA [sSB] and hints that Linden Research doesn't care about the older PC technology. Well truth be told the whole graphics industry has left the old PCs behind. This is not one of those areas where old graphics technology can be supported. It's not the software that makes the world look real, it's the Graphics Chip sets and the associated firmware with Viewer support using that technology.

I'm looking forward to seeing the world with my new AMD Radeon™ HD 6850 Graphics card.

 

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This has nothing to see with graphic card performance ! The fact you have a great graph card wont give you a better SSB experiment, and SSB is not needed for the materials improvement. SSB problem is that ppl will have to use new viewer but some ppl doent have a comp who can handle more than V1 technology. Graph card or not, its not related to this anyway, its the comp system itself.

Dont get me wrong, i like progress and technology, but for me the real improvement, the talentend one, would have been to code it enough for it s still accessible from old viewers. I know Imprudence team is currently working on this challenge, they are back working on their V1 and try to work on the codes for it can accept the SSB (if i have well understood what they say in their blog). 

Its nothing but codes.. im not programmer, but i dont understand why its not possible to make the V1 access to the SSB, maybe it s a long thing to programm, but is it so impossible ? Ah well, i know what does our society want : not to adapt to ourselves, but that WE adapt to it again and again and for the only purpose to BUY, BUY, BUY, and then bring to the spoiled powerful ppl MONEY, MONEY, MONEY.... and yes, compared to money, after all.... what are humans ? almost nothing....

I m sorry but i cant be totally happy about the SSB (even if i will like it) knowing we left some persons behind us.... As someone said here, there is nothing to celebrate here. There is a really good news and a really bad news at once...

And its naive to think that the winners of today wont be perhaps one day the sacrified ones.... That day, the ones who dont understand now, will understand then.. but really its pity.

[KarenMichelle Lane]

Actually I beg to differ. It is about technology. many of the current features that make SecondLife even more enjoyable [shading, reflections, spectral brightness, etc ] are using technology not available on the older graphics cards GPUs & Firmware. These features make SecondLife more real to and for many of us.

 

Picking one new feature and saying "Oh this would be a nice retrofit into the old snow globe code" ignores the fact that that base code long ago became non-functional. Sure SSB would have been nice to have in the snow globe days but that is just second guessing all the server/viewer design decisions over the past 10 years.

 

I don't understand your comments about Buying & Money. I fully expect to only get 3-5 years life out of my PC purchase and then I expect to upgrade to a newer model & technology. A single PC purchase is not a lifetime commitment and never has been.

 

I know there are individuals out there who have PCs that are at the end of their useful life’s and I'm sorry that these are slowly being left behind in the SecondLife development cycle. They’re also being left behind in many other ways as well.

 

Developers understand this as well as Resident Builders & Creators. SecondLife is still hard to learn and very demanding to master. It is not FaceBook. The qualitative improvements I've seen over the past 7 years to SL are staggering. But this said, yes, each major improvement seems to leave behind some of the older equipment in that PC equipment lifecycle. Linden Research isn’t guilty of anything that all software developers are also facing. The decision of what older technology to support.

 

All of us who have had to deal with the annoying avatar rendering & rezzing issues all these years are the beneficiaries this next cycle of upgrades. Perhaps the organizations trying to keep the V1 code alive will be able to adapt SSB to their efforts and therefore buy a few more months for those using old PCs.

 

[Orca Flotta]

Ok, I see the whole discussion two-fold:

Of course the OP came across like a right **bleep**, no question about it. But otoh being overly sorry for the poor ppl who can't afford a decent PC is rather shortsighted as well. Maybe they are just too poor to buy a decent PC because they are blowing away all their money on drugs, hookers, sports cars, children, fashion, house, exotic vacations, giant TV screens and nonsense like that. Let them get left behind.

And then there's the other type, the young and hip, upwardly mobile college students. They want to play SL on their stupid tablets and, if possible, even on their not-so-smart phones. Wrong tool for the job, idjits. Let them get left behind as well.

Above mentioned groups aren't really invested in SL, they aren't hardcore users, they just want their quick fix of SL and they'll soon find the next big thing to keep them amused for a couple of weeks. Computer stuff is cheap as never before, with enough interest you should be able to have a decent system running without spending the world for it.

I'm like monetary poor by all standards, being kinda pensioner, caring for my sick husband, living in a very small house, not having any expensive hobbies, driving a car that is more rust than steel, flying tourist class, gave up on some RL hobbies. But I spend a lot of time behind my computers, so I try to always stay fairly up to date. My hardware is ready for SSA (formerly SSB), as well as it was ready for WindLight, mesh, shadows and everything else the lab has thrown  at us. At least my big rig is. The lappies are not ... but they will manage to keep me connected while travelling.

If anyone is not ready, all I can say to them is Goodbye and Godspeed, be well, have fun. In case I liked you I'm sorry to see you go.
 

[Nova Convair]

Well said.

One detail to add: SSA is designed to take load OFF the client and network. So it's a step to allow weaker hardware to run SL.

A requirement is a new viewer. Anyone using Firefox 1 or Internet Explorer 1? hehe - hardly comparable but operating systems, browswers and SL viewers make progress and from time to time you have to get a new one.

[Ren Toxx]

There are two viewers that, being essentially build on 1.x code (and thus somewhat lighter), have been adapted to SSB/A: Singularity and Cool VL. They remain good options for people with lower end hardware.

[Ceka Cianci]

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Nova Convair wrote:

Well said.

One detail to add: SSA is designed to take load OFF the client and network. So it's a step to allow weaker hardware to run SL.

A requirement is a new viewer. Anyone using Firefox 1 or Internet Explorer 1? hehe - hardly comparable but operating systems, browswers and SL viewers make progress and from time to time you have to get a new one.

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this is what i am hoping for..

i'm hoping to get some better performance with server side baking..

i'm right on the edge of it i think..this may be the boost i need to get me a little more time until tax season when i can get the system i want and not have to settle for less..

i've been in way worse conditions in sl than  this..back in the prim butt bald waiting on hair to rezz 30 minutes for a top to change time..

it's gonna take a good shot of .."hey we just can't let you on here anymore" before i call it total quits hehehehe

[Orca Flotta]

There are two viewers that, being essentially build on 1.x code (and thus somewhat lighter), have been adapted to SSB/A: Singularity and Cool VL. They remain good options for people with lower end hardware.

Nuuuu, Sing only pretends to be on V1 code but is really on top notch actual 3.xxxx code. They just succeeded in keeping the V1 look and feel, quite contrary to FS's weak attempt. Can't say much about CoolVL, as far as I recall I didn't like it and so really can't be bothered. Sing gives me all the functionality and logic of 1.23 (and more), rezzes faster than everything else and is the right stuff for vehicle users. But you can't call it a lightweight viewer.

[Czari Zenovka]

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Amethyst Jetaime wrote:

More important, based on past history, is the server code ready or will we have to put up with a lot of bugs for a while? 

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This is my concern.  Anticipating "hunkering down" and waiting out the "debugging" process.

[Czari Zenovka]

Great post, Perrie.  I've never understood why people who have snazzy PCs and can use all the latest viewer features somehow think those with older PC/s and/or can't use the newer viewers are somehow hurting their SL experience.  History has shown that LL certainly isn't hesitating to release new "features" for that reason.  IMO, they have pushed too many new things out in the past year too quickly.

Just to address a few points:

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Perrie Juran wrote:

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Nagachief Darkstone wrote:

I know I am! The effect is twofold for me. :catvery-happy:

First, it (hopefully) means the end of broken avatars.

 

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Hopefully is the key word. 

 

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I keep reading in the forums about broken avatars and, except for seeing strange-looking avatars due to not being able to see mesh until recently, I never saw an avatar broken in any other sense.  That was apparently not due to older PCs/viewers, at least based on my experience.

To those of you who have seen broken avatars, what do they look like?

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Perrie Juran wrote:

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Nagachief Darkstone wrote:

Second, it forces people to use the latest viewer, which means the special effects and new features I use that accidently crash older viewers can be seen properly!

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<snip>

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 (Several people I know are crashed by me wearing a rigged mesh and they are using snowglobe/1.23/pheonix-based viewer)

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On my old PC/viewer I never crashed due to being around people wearing rigged mesh.  You (Nagachief) indicated that the people crashing were using snowglobe and/or a Phoenix-based viewer (not sure the way you worded that if it was an either/or situation). I used the pre-mesh Phoenix since it first came out until last week when I received a new PC and, again, never crashed due to people wearing rigged mesh; in fact, I have rarely crashed in the last few years when using SL.  I hope that, since people who have newer PCs and are using the newer viewers have been crashing, that now that my system is updated I don't start crashing as well.  :matte-motes-wink-tongue:

Perrie Juran wrote:

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And how exactly does people using older Viewers hold up progress?  Pray tell, tell us how?

Even though I can use the latest and greatest, a little secret.  It has several graphics settings availble.  You know, Low, Medium, High, Ultra.  That stuff.

Even though I can run on Ultra I can still choose to run on Low.

You know who's choice that is.

Mine.

Not Yours.

People using older Viewers do not hold up progress.  They may get left behind.  But they do not hold it up.

You are gloating about the wrong things in the wrong place.  Be careful you don't choke on your gloat.

 

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Again, I've encountered this attitude a lot in the past year and still don't get it.

[Czari Zenovka]

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Malanya wrote:

Well,

I have found that many people are pretty selfish and could care less about others.

If it works for them.. great, if not I am sure they would be singing a different song. I also find blaming those with older machines holding back any advancement here, I would think that would fall in LL and Viewer Devs laps.

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(Bolding mine)

In addition to such "kind" comments as - People who can't afford new PCs should find another hobby - other similar comments that come to mind are:

*People who don't build in ultra-graphics mode shouldn't be permitted to be content creators

*Content creators should jump up and down with glee when someone points out how "defective" their creation is

*People who post two many color variations of the same item on the MP should be charged a fee (this is a constraint with the MP software; content creators have been asking since at least 2008 for a feature to be able to show all colors of an item be added to the MP)

*I only create for people with high end PCs because they have the money to buy more items in SL. (This has been debunked by personal examples from various people.)

I could list a lot more such "positive" statements but these are a few that go to your point, Malanya.

[Czari Zenovka]

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Coby Foden wrote:

Turn on the heat!  :matte-motes-big-grin:

 

 

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The Heat is On!

And since I think this was a great video take-off on the song for those of us who enjoyed watching Juan Martinez in the Jodi Arias trial, I'm linking to that version:

[Czari Zenovka]

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KarenMichelle Lane wrote:

I noticed a few comments about the "Selfish" POV of those who are prepared for SSA [sSB] and hints that Linden Research doesn't care about the older PC technology. Well truth be told the whole graphics industry has left the old PCs behind. This is not one of those areas where old graphics technology can be supported. It's not the software that makes the world look real, it's the Graphics Chip sets and the associated firmware with Viewer support using that technology.

I'm looking forward to seeing the world with my new AMD Radeon™ HD 6850 Graphics card.

 

---

I beg to differ - I was able to use my old PC to run Everquest and WoW very well.  They may be older games but they do update.  During the time I was crawling through SL with 3.8 fps in some places, I had not problem at all in either game.  I do realize it's somewhat of an apple to oranges comparison as games do not contain user-generated content therefore all the builds are optimized vs. builders in SL who range in expertise in building.

If I had not had a new PC gifted to me - I would be spending my time in one of those two places.  I know it may not break LL's heart, but the lindens I was spending each month for my rent, food for my breedables, and general merchandise from content creators in SL would have instead gone to one or both of those games.

Shortly after mesh was enabled and I was having trouble doing anything in SL outside my own home at 4000m, I was going to give up my home parcel that I had been renting for the past two+ years since, if I wasn't going to be in SL much I didn't really need a home.  I contacted my landlord with advance notice and he offered some months of not having to pay rent and/or a greatly reduced rent in the hopes that I would be able to get a new PC.  Apparently he didn't want to lose a good tenent.

[Czari Zenovka]

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Trinity Yazimoto wrote:

And its naive to think that the winners of today wont be perhaps one day the sacrified ones.... That day, the ones who dont understand now, will understand then.. but really its pity.

---

Good point, Trinity.  I don't know the ages of most people who post some of the "My PC is better than your PC" posts, but I would imagine them to be fairly young, meaning in the 20-30's age group.  Sometimes younger people think they're invulnerable, that things will always be as they are now but, the longer one lives and experiences more of life, it becomes apparent that one second in time, be it a car accident, a bad report from the Dr., a natural disaster, or people losing life savings in a collapsing economy, can change one's life and being able to see ultra-high graphics becomes the very least of one's concerns.

[Czari Zenovka]

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KarenMichelle Lane wrote:

Actually I beg to differ. It is about technology. many of the current features that make SecondLife even more enjoyable [shading, reflections, spectral brightness, etc ] are using technology not available on the older graphics cards GPUs & Firmware. These features make SecondLife more real to and for many of us.

 

 

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And in like manner, many of us who have been in SL for years have thoroughly enjoyed SL without all those features. My main enjoyment within SL is the people I've met and I can enjoy them while sitting in my SL house and IM-chatting as well as I could chatting with them in a sim that has all those features.

[Czari Zenovka]

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Orca Flotta wrote:

There are two viewers that, being essentially build on 1.x code (and thus somewhat lighter), have been adapted to SSB/A: Singularity and Cool VL. They remain good options for people with lower end hardware.

Nuuuu, Sing only pretends to be on V1 code but is really on top notch actual 3.xxxx code. They just succeeded in keeping the V1 look and feel, quite contrary to FS's weak attempt. Can't say much about CoolVL, as far as I recall I didn't like it and so really can't be bothered. Sing gives me all the functionality and logic of 1.23 (and more), rezzes faster than everything else and is the right stuff for vehicle users. But you can't call it a lightweight viewer.

---

Now that I've used, albeit only two days, both the CoolVL viewer and Singularity, I will agree that I much prefer the Singularity viewer.  For one thing, either the CoolVL viewer doesn't have the radar function I enjoyed in Phoenix or I wasn't able to find it, but Singularity has it and other features I prefer.

I was also a bit disappointed in the curt response I received when I contacted the CoolVL viewer's designer to let him know I was having issues with registering on their forums.  It is human nature to tend to discontinue doing business with a company, merchant, etc. with whom they have less than favorable dealings.  I have yet to give Firestorm a try but am already familiar with their level of customer service from using Phoenix.  There is another viewer I refuse to use based on the snarky comments of its designer in "the other" forums. 

[Malanya]

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Czari Zenovka wrote:

---

Malanya wrote:

Well,

I have found that many people are pretty selfish and could care less about others.

If it works for them.. great, if not I am sure they would be singing a different song. I also find blaming those with older machines holding back any advancement here, I would think that would fall in LL and Viewer Devs laps.

---

(Bolding mine)

In addition to such "kind" comments as - People who can't afford new PCs should find another hobby - other similar comments that come to mind are:

*People who don't build in ultra-graphics mode shouldn't be permitted to be content creators

*Content creators should jump up and down with glee when someone points out how "defective" their creation is

*People who post two many color variations of the same item on the MP should be charged a fee (this is a constraint with the MP software; content creators have been asking since at least 2008 for a feature to be able to show all colors of an item be added to the MP)

*I only create for people with high end PCs because they have the money to buy more items in SL. (This has been debunked by personal examples from various people.)

I could list a lot more such "positive" statements but these are a few that go to your point, Malanya.

---

Good points Czari, but it seems that caring about others or feeling sad that some of your friends experience will be no longer isn't the way to think Of course we all know that technology changes quickly, I am sure we know change is good, but I would HOPE that we also know acting like the people that can't afford to upgrade don't belong here is just damn rude.

[Czari Zenovka]

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Malanya wrote:

---

Czari Zenovka wrote:

---

Malanya wrote:

Well,

I have found that many people are pretty selfish and could care less about others.

If it works for them.. great, if not I am sure they would be singing a different song. I also find blaming those with older machines holding back any advancement here, I would think that would fall in LL and Viewer Devs laps.

---

(Bolding mine)

In addition to such "kind" comments as - People who can't afford new PCs should find another hobby - other similar comments that come to mind are:

*People who don't build in ultra-graphics mode shouldn't be permitted to be content creators

*Content creators should jump up and down with glee when someone points out how "defective" their creation is

*People who post two many color variations of the same item on the MP should be charged a fee (this is a constraint with the MP software; content creators have been asking since at least 2008 for a feature to be able to show all colors of an item be added to the MP)

*I only create for people with high end PCs because they have the money to buy more items in SL. (This has been debunked by personal examples from various people.)

I could list a lot more such "positive" statements but these are a few that go to your point, Malanya.

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Good points Czari, but it seems that caring about others or feeling sad that some of your friends experience will be no longer isn't the way to think

Of course we all know that technology changes quickly, I am sure we know change is good, but I would HOPE that we also know acting like the people that can't afford to upgrade don't belong here is just damn rude.

---

I pretty much now consider it a weeding out of people I don't want to waste spend time with.

[Madelaine McMasters]

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Czari Zenovka wrote:

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KarenMichelle Lane wrote:

Actually I beg to differ. It is about technology. many of the current features that make SecondLife even more enjoyable [shading, reflections, spectral brightness, etc ] are using technology not available on the older graphics cards GPUs & Firmware. These features make SecondLife more real to and for many of us.

 

 

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And in like manner, many of us who have been in SL for years have thoroughly enjoyed SL without all those features. My main enjoyment within SL is the people I've met and I can enjoy them while sitting in my SL house and IM-chatting as well as I could chatting with them in a sim that has all those features.

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For at least the last year, I've done most of my chatting with friends while standing on the ottoman in my lighthouse. It hardly makes a difference if I'm in Low or Ultra if I've got my IM window covering 95% of the screen. What does make a difference is the quality of the conversations I have with the interesting minds I encounter here.

I have a computer with a huge display, capable of running ultra, which constantly reminds me of just how beautiful my lighthouse might actually be, if only the viewer would render all of it!

I understand KarenMichelle's desire to have more realistic rendering in SL, but I'm the sort for whom "reality" encompasses a lot more than what I see. I have flown real airplanes in RL, but ultimately found that to be less fulfilling (and far more noisy) than climbing into the little paper airplane I just folded, tossing it into the air, and riding it across Lake Michigan to visit the strange creatures who live on the far shore, eating popcorn with forks.

;-)

[Perrie Juran]

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KarenMichelle Lane wrote:

I've been "Beta Server Side Baked" and am so ready for Mainline Server Side Baking - Bring it on Sunshine!

I truly am sorry for those people who are still utilizing Snowglobe technology. SL has been broken for you for a long time but the past is the past and the old ways are no longer.

I noticed a few comments about the "Selfish" POV of those who are prepared for SSA [sSB] and hints that Linden Research doesn't care about the older PC technology. Well truth be told the whole graphics industry has left the old PCs behind. This is not one of those areas where old graphics technology can be supported. It's not the software that makes the world look real, it's the Graphics Chip sets and the associated firmware with Viewer support using that technology.

I'm looking forward to seeing the world with my new AMD Radeon™ HD 6850 Graphics card.

 

---

I'm happy for improvements and know that technology advances.  And when it does some people get left behind.  While I am not advocating for a pity party for the people who due to personal circumstances at this time won't be able to keep up, on the other hand for someone to come gloating like the OP did, that is at least in my opinion, wrong.  And it became doubly wrong when the gloating was based on such bad misconceptions as the ones the OP stated.

I'm hoping that SSB succeeds.  I'm hoping that it not only improves the experience for everyone but that it also makes it available to more people.  LL thinks that it will and has chosen to invest a lot in this project.  It is one that on the surface makes sense, unlike some other things they have given priority to while neglecting other, to use Rodvik's phrase, "low hanging fruit."

[Trinity Yazimoto]

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Orca Flotta wrote:

 Maybe they are just too poor to buy a decent PC because they are blowing away all their money on drugs, hookers, sports cars, children, fashion, house, exotic vacations, giant TV screens and nonsense like that.

 

 

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This sentence is so pathetic and so reactionary, that i prefer to avoid to answer to this. 

We already discussed about this topic, you seem to live in another planet than mine..  I was expecting such post from you in this thread, but with this sentence you went over my expectations... 

I bet all the ppl who cant afford a new pc for keeping their presence will enjoy to  be insulted by your sentence. 

[Trinity Yazimoto]

If i was one of those who wont be able to upgrade to SSB, as an humoristic protestation, here what i would do :

-- i would create a skin layer all grey (if i cant see my avatar other than grey , there is no reason for i allow others to see me fine) or even better, i have a wireframe skin from meta-body in my inventory, i would wear this one, that way noone would complain about me bec im naked.

-- i would create a tatoo layer with a big "SSB killed me" (of course i will never see the tatoo layer, but others will)

-- and i would hangout everywhere there is a crowd... just for ppl doesnt forget that im still a SL citizen and if possible, would choose the place where are all the ppl who are so happy to see ppl like this leave just to polluate their view... then they will have a real reason to say that ppl with poor computer ruins their SL experience. 

Well, ill be fine with SSB anyway... but i may do it in solidarity if needed :smileywink:

[Perrie Juran]

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Trinity Yazimoto wrote:

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Orca Flotta wrote:

 Maybe they are just too poor to buy a decent PC because they are blowing away all their money on drugs, hookers, sports cars, children, fashion, house, exotic vacations, giant TV screens and nonsense like that.

 

 

---

This sentence is so pathetic and so reactionary, that i prefer to avoid to answer to this. 

We already discussed about this topic, you seem to live in another planet than mine..  I was expecting such post from you in this thread, but with this sentence you went over my expectations... 

I bet all the ppl who cant afford a new pc for keeping their presence will enjoy to  be insulted by your sentence. 

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I was hoping that Orca was being facetious with that statement because the people doing that would be too dang busy with their hookers and blow to be using SL.  But I could be wrong on both points.

[Kelli May]

I may be missing the point of some of these posts, but surely one can download a recent viewer and switch off all the graphics whistles and bells? Then you'd get SSA but would still be able to run it on your antiquated stone-age hardware faithful and familiar computer. Aren't there any up-to-date viewers that mimic the 1.xx layout?

Some things I noticed in passing... my Lumiya (android tablet) viewer was the first to claim SSA compatibility, although I've not tested this yet. It still works fine with current content and baking methods (for given values of 'works fine'... trying to run a 3d world on mobile tech).