New materials are here, any merchants got anything neat and ideas on conversion time and pricing?

[Poenald Palen]

Any new material items to show and give us all a sort of case study or thoughts on if it was worth it?

Maybe some insights on how long it takes to upgrade, modify or change something to use the newer materials?

What about changing products prices or setting newer builds prices due to percieved value increase (not all peole will buy them due to hardware requirements or lag issues even if they can see it) and maybe even to curb laggy items. Normal maps can save on geometry, but some stuff will just get larger in download as a result of added realism, so more money to curb to much lag and ensure only wealthier who might have better hardware buy it?

Of course, what will I do? I am incorporating the newer materials stuff into my very very belated upgrades. So, time spent will end up being a several to maybe 10 hours, at least, on figuring it all out and that is for only 2 products.

Low lag is the goal, so this wlil be mostly exploration and then application of impact reducing stuff and stuff that does minimal addition for maximum impact.

But, looks are important and impact wlil be reduced with mesh so some of that will go to details and now normal maps and spec are where I will spend some time working on tires and carbon fiber. I hope to be able to use all SL materials on one vehicle, but the other is made for lower lag with less featurse and all baked looks so it still looks OK when all of the effects are turned off! No need for new materials on this one.

 That being said, I want to see it all with new materials and this means it looks way different than baked textures look. So, a different version will hopefully done and this one is more coslty in time and will reflect that in it's price. It should look much better and pulling restrictions on myself for impact to be less than 21 prims worth I will hopefully get something very good looking and script up some stuff that moves and adds more role palyability to it all. Higher costs demand more features, so this means that the upgrade not only includes materials work but more mesh work, more script work and so on. I may also make a lower quality version that uses materials and has less scripting, sort of an intermediate build that may be boxed(well, foldered) with the higher quality one for those who want to drive with less lag and still have materails on.

 

Overall, this takes some extra time. Some of which I will lose if I keep typing! So, off to do other non SL stuff and I will be back tonight to see what anyone else is doing or what they have to share about the new materails and how they apply to thier merchant acticities! Off to study now. Thanks for any replies that are helpful.

[Monti Messmer]

Hello, i have nothing to show because till now play around with the 2 new "texture" options didn´t do it for me.

Mainly i´m doing clothes and with the time loading 3 textures i rather paint little details and model the bigger ones.

The example jacket Linden are showing on that youtube video didn´t impress me that much. Buttons looked like coming out of honey or .... no sharp edges. I guess some creators will do better but for me for now it´s watch and wait going the old way.

Monti

[arton Rotaru]

If you compare the same items with and without materials, you definitely want to keep the one with materials applied.

Increase in lag is pretty relative IMO. If you would model all the details, a normal map can show, the increase in lag would be even higher, probably.

Here's a Street Lamp I made, with a normals (512x512) and specular map (256x256) applied. On the second image is the same model, with and without materials applied.  It's land impact is 2, with handmade LODs.

It's not so obvious on images, but in-world, the difference is just huge.

About the pricing. Well, I actually thought that properly made mesh objects should be set higher already, but that didn't worked out, because people sold mesh stuff way too cheap IMHO, right from the start.

[Sassy Romano]

My issue with this is that the burden on content creators just deepens.

Taking clothes as an example, we have "original mesh clothes"

Next we now have "mesh clothes with materials" which enable more apparent detail with less topology.  However, if the customer doesn't have advanced lighting enabled, they won't see it as intended.  The creator turning out higher detailed models but without being more efficient stands to sell more.  Alternatively, we're now expecting creators to offer not just multiple sizes now but multiple models for with and without materials?

Then one day, we might also get mesh that fits (deformer).

We could end up with not just "mesh" but several versions of mesh, none of which helps the consumer when the marketplace choice is "mesh".

I did a quick poll of users in my group yesterday and few were using advanced lighting.

[Rya Nitely]

If it isn't a default setting then it's not something you can depend on people using. We are advised to build for a rendervolumeLODfactor set at 2 or under so that we are catering for people who don't have good computers, or those who just never change their settings. So wouldn't it be the same situation with the advanced lighting settings?

As for me, I always play catch up when things become the norm. So I'm not looking into playing with materials just yet.

 

[Sassy Romano]

It's not that simple.  Advanced Lighting Model is a default setting for the graphics setting that is mid way between "mid" and "high".

Thus anyone who has that level of graphics will have it on by default, those below won't.

[Czari Zenovka]

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Sassy Romano wrote:

My issue with this is that the burden on content creators just deepens.

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This ^^  I'm rapidly reaching the point where I will only create for my own enjoyment.  Yeah, I know that chokes everyone up...lol...but it will also mean I go in world even less than I currently am.  The irony of this is that I just ordered my new PC yesterday.  Oh well...when I do go in world, I will be able to move more quickly...lol.

[Medhue Simoni]

I made a video showing a plugin for Photoshop to make bump maps.

 

Personally, if I'm not learning something new, I'll just get bored. I'm excited about materials. It's just in time for my update to my Lycan AO and avatar. With all the new things that LL has implemented, this is definitely going to be the largest improvement to my Lycan/Werewolf package since I got my mocap system. Using Gaia Clary's Avastar Plugin for Blender, makes the whole character creation process much easier. My new Lycan will have a working Jaw Bone too. I actually used the unused mskull bone as his Jaw Bone. LL also added the option to upload anim files, which is what you need to use to animate unused bones.

As far as users with high or low end PCs. Who cares!!!! If you make for the HIGH end pc user, than it works right for every1. If you do not, the higher end pc users, who again had the extra cash to splurge on a PC and probably has the extra cash to buy more SL items, is going to look at your items and not be so impressed compared to 1 with all the texture maps. For the life of me, I don't understand why any1 would purposely cater only to lower end machines.

As for more work on the creators end, this is all up to the creator. For some, especially people new to 3d design, the process is going to be long and hair pulling. It doesn't have to be tho, there are tools like the Adobe plugin, and Avastar that make things sooooooo much easier. I'm a newb at creating avatars. Real avatar makers can seriously run circles around me. BUT...... I have skills other avatar makers don't have. This is the world of SL. Where creators of all types duke it out in the market. It really is a thing of beauty.

About LAG, well, a good content creator can use all these new features to create something thousands of times more efficient. On this Lycan avatar I'm making, fully clothed and decked out, he is coming in at 25k on the Avatar rendering meter. Other mesh avatars that I've seen are all over 200k. Mine even has little hairs all over him that amount to 10 times the vertices of the whole avatar alone. Even with this extreme hair, his rendering cost is super low. Heck, the bump and specular maps are only 75kb each.

[Coby Foden]

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Rya Nitely wrote:

 

As for me, I always play catch up when things become the norm. So I'm not looking into playing with materials just yet.

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There is no harm to anybody to start using the materials now. Slow computer users will just see the diffuse map (as we all have seen so far). Those who can keep advanced lighting model on can see the full effect of the materials (diffuse map, normal map, specular map). On a "decent" computer hardware advanced lighting model does not cause fps drop (or just a very slight drop) so there is nothing preventing having it on at all times.

I wonder, what are the (supposed) benefits of not starting to use the materials now?

[Rya Nitely]

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Coby Foden wrote:

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Rya Nitely wrote:

 

As for me, I always play catch up when things become the norm. So I'm not looking into playing with materials just yet.

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I wonder, what are the (supposed) benefits of not starting to use the materials now?

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For me it's just time. I haven't looked into it so I don't even know what it involves. But I do learn fast enough. I'm going to give that video of Medhue's a quick look at. But really, it's just like one more thing on top of everything else to create a decent product - it takes time. Time to watch the tutorials, to practice it, to become good at it. Or am I wrong, I don't know.

[Rya Nitely]

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Medhue Simoni wrote:

 For the life of me, I don't understand why any1 would purposely cater only to lower end machines.

 

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Medhue, I was talking about rendervolumeLODfactor settings and asking if it's the same situation with advanced lighting, which Sassy has kindly informed that it is not. Thanks Sassy .

But my comment about catering for lower end computers had to do with rendervolumeLODfactor settings. I always test my mesh items at an LOD factor of 2 so that they look decent for people who use lower settings. It just takes more effort but I think this is important

[Sassy Romano]

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Coby Foden wrote:

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Rya Nitely wrote:

 

As for me, I always play catch up when things become the norm. So I'm not looking into playing with materials just yet.

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There is no harm to anybody to start using the materials now. Slow computer users will just see the diffuse map (as we all have seen so far). Those who can keep advanced lighting model on can see the full effect of the materials (diffuse map, normal map, specular map). On a "decent" computer hardware advanced lighting model does not cause fps drop (or just a very slight drop) so there is nothing preventing having it on at all times.

I wonder, what are the (supposed) benefits of not starting to use the materials now?

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As far as textures go yes but the point stands that details that were previously sometimes modelled, should be done with materials and a lower poly mesh.  People with a lower spec PC will see a lower poly mesh than the creator might have otherwise modelled.

[Alicia Sautereau]

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Medhue Simoni wrote:

As far as users with high or low end PCs. Who cares!!!! If you make for the HIGH end pc user, than it works right for every1. If you do not, the higher end pc users, who again had the extra cash to splurge on a PC and probably has the extra cash to buy more SL items, is going to look at your items and not be so impressed compared to 1 with all the texture maps. For the life of me, I don't understand why any1 would purposely cater only to lower end machines.

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As an high end pc user, that needs another upgrade..., and a couple hundred euro`s to throw away each month in sl alone, i won`t be throwing it your way...

Unlike others, we can pick what we buy, and if i have to give your competitor more money for the same item and he isn`t being a dipstick, i`ll gladly spend my money with some one that cares about all their customers

 

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Czari Zenovka wrote:

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Sassy Romano wrote:

My issue with this is that the burden on content creators just deepens.

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This ^^  I'm rapidly reaching the point where I will only create for my own enjoyment.  Yeah, I know that chokes everyone up...lol...but it will also mean I go in world even less than I currently am.  The irony of this is that I just ordered my new PC yesterday.  Oh well...when I do go in world, I will be able to move more quickly...lol.

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 Great, now i`ll have to finish my lawn :matte-motes-sour:

[Rya Nitely]

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Sassy Romano wrote:

Advanced Lighting Model is a default setting for the graphics setting that is mid way between "mid" and "high".

Thus anyone who has that level of graphics will have it on by default, those below won't.

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Just tested this in Firestorm, and Advanced Lighting Model only turns on when you switch to Ultra. I wonder how many people have their settings set to Ultra. I don't.

[Sassy Romano]

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Rya Nitely wrote:

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Sassy Romano wrote:

Advanced Lighting Model is a default setting for the graphics setting that is mid way between "mid" and "high".

Thus anyone who has that level of graphics will have it on by default, those below won't.

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Just tested this in Firestorm, and Advanced Lighting Model only turns on when you switch to Ultra. I wonder how many people have their settings set to Ultra. I don't.

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Almost, I just checked again, it becomes available as a checkable option when I said (between mid and high) and is a checked default between high and ultra.

I agree though, a lot will have it turned off.  I do live in ultra with everything turned on but many won't.

[arton Rotaru]

Well, Firestorm doesen't even have materials implemented. And I guess it will take a while until it has it.

However, in LL's viewer, Advanced Light Model does turn on by default between Mid and High. So that's already on along with a default LODfactor of 1.125.

Like Coby said already, also for me it doesen't make a difference in Viewer FPS if ALM is turned on or off, with shadows set to None. Of course with LL's viewer that is.

[arton Rotaru]

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Rya Nitely wrote:

For me it's just time. I haven't looked into it so I don't even know what it involves. But I do learn fast enough. I'm going to give that video of Medhue's a quick look at. But really, it's just like one more thing on top of everything else to create a decent product -

it takes time. Time to watch the tutorials, to practice it, to become good at it. Or am I wrong, I don't know.

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No, you are absolutely right. While creating normal maps the way Medhue showed might look easy, there's a couple of things you need to know about normal maps, and the ins and outs when it comes to baking normals from a Hi poly  to a Low poly mesh.

[Madeliefste Oh]

I'm very much in doubt, when it comes to this new material system. I'm just starting to experiment with it, to see if it is worth to put much energy in it for future items and maybe for updates of older items. 

At first side I did not see why many people in my surrounding are so excited about this material system. I tried two times to make a bump map and a speculair map for some of my items, but I didn't like the result at all. It looked  like I had spoiled a large pot of glue on my items. So I more or less decided not to use the material options for items that have a mat surface.

Now I'm experimenting a bit with shiny things, I started with some metal chains. I'm both surprised and dissappointed about the results. Under the right (light) circumstances you can reach very realistic results with shiny metal. You can walk around it, and the light reflection on the metal moves when you change position. 

The dissappointing thing is though that the result is 'not fixed on the object', it the interaction between light sources and object that gives the realistic looking result. When I disabled the local lights I used to add this touch of realism to my metal chains, the result looks nothing like nothing anymore. In the pictures below you see the same five chains, under different light preferences. Both rusty chains have no normal map or speculair map applied, the 3 shiny chains have a blanc normal map and a blanc speculair map.

 

So when you put up a light set to make product pictures, you can have very much influence on how realistic you want your item to look, by changing the settings in the object menu, but even more by finetunig the light that your object casts.

But then, when a customer buys your item, and rezzes it on midday with out any local lights in the neigbourhoud, it will look in nothing like the item on your delicate picture. You just cannot control the interaction between your product and the light circumstances from your customers... you have no control about the realism at all, accept under your own lights.

 

[Rya Nitely]

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Madeliefste Oh wrote:

But then, when a customer buys your item, and rezzes it on midday with out any local lights in the neigbourhoud, it will look in nothing like the item on your delicate picture. You just cannot control the interaction between your product and the light circumstances from your customers... you have no control about the realism at all, accept under your own lights.

 

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Now this is why I compared it to LODfactor settings, because how the customer sees the item is important. We know that many customers don't look at things inworld first. And even if the customer is using a high end computer and can see the item in all its amazing glory, surely he or she would want to show off the item to friends...who are not quite seeing what's so amazing.

And when it comes to avatars this is more important, because surely you would want everyone to see it properly.

That's why I only started creating in mesh when almost everyone could see it.

[Medhue Simoni]

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Alicia Sautereau wrote:

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Medhue Simoni wrote:

As far as users with high or low end PCs. Who cares!!!! If you make for the HIGH end pc user, than it works right for every1. If you do not, the higher end pc users, who again had the extra cash to splurge on a PC and probably has the extra cash to buy more SL items, is going to look at your items and not be so impressed compared to 1 with all the texture maps. For the life of me, I don't understand why any1 would purposely cater only to lower end machines.

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As an high end pc user, that needs another upgrade..., and a couple hundred euro`s to throw away each month in sl alone, i won`t be throwing it your way...

Unlike others, we can pick what we buy, and if i have to give your competitor more money for the same item and he isn`t being a dipstick, i`ll gladly spend my money with some one that cares about all their customers

 

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Where did I say I didn't care about all my customers? I said I don't care what kind of PC they use. I love how people want to add their own biases to other people's words. Does it make it easier for you to get angry at people? My items are created so that they work for every1, not just 1 type of user. Whether they use a low end or a high end, the products work exactly the same, and look as good as I can make them for both. You can shop with whomever you want, and it won't affect me at all.

[arton Rotaru]

Well, that image below is just sunlight. ALM on, no local lights. Things are so much more lively inworld.

Of course, if you place them into the shadows, there won't be much specularity from the sun.

[Madeliefste Oh]

My first series of pictures was take inside, so indeed in the shadow. Next serie is shot outside.

Though there is some shiny effect on the chains now from the sun or moon, the realism is still far away from what you can reach when you support your objects with some nice local lighting.

At midday the material of the chain looks more like plastic to me then like metal. At sunset all chains look a bit rusty, and still more plastic then metal. At midnight the result is best, the chain looks more or less like metal in the dark.

 

[Madeliefste Oh]

Adding material to your objects will only have effect on the surface when you let light have influence on your objects. When you rez a your object inside building without local lights, you won't see any effect of the speculair map. The speculair map is a file that contains information about 'how to break the light'. When there is no light there is nothing for the speculair map to interact with.
When you rez your object outside, the material is influenced by the light from the sun or moon.  The speculair map will catch the light from this source and show the shininess according to it's settings in the texture menu.
You have control over these setting, but not over the settings from the sun or the moon. They won't give your objects the most realistic possible look. That is only reached when you can control both the settings of the speculair map and the light sources the object is influenced by.
When you rez local lights around your object, you have light sources that you can control. Playing with the lights can lead to highly realistic results, the brightness of the light, the color of the light, the angle from where the light comes, all have influence on the realisme of the material.  

I think that we are going towards a future were will see more and more merchandise with 'build in material light'. Like in the early days skin designers used to include facelights or body lights to support the product.
When I was for example a jewelry designer I would start today with materials, and develop both speculair maps and light sets for silver, gold, diamond, pearl and so on. And I would start to sell my new rings, bracelets and necklaces with a lighting system attached to it, or maybe in two versions, one with and one without build in lights.

We will see this in the future in more and more virtual goods. The typical shine of fabrics like silk and satin, or leather and latex, might be imitated very well with the right lights supporting a clothing piece. Or fabrics that are almost impossible to imitate in a texture, like for example velvet might become available with the right light set to support the texture.  And there will be lights to support the metal parts in shoes, belts, bags, and so on...
As long as your objects are avatar attachements, you don't have to worrie too much about the prim count. Some extra invisible prims to support your materials won't stop your customer from buying your items.

This is different for rezzables, where each prim has land impact, thus it's cost in tier. Though adding lights to objects supports your materials, it also brings up the land impact. I think for single items, this is not a good choice.
But for example furniture sets could make use of the lamps that are available in the scene, to support the realisme of the other materials in the room.

I'm not sure for my own brand, how to deal with this new opportunity. I must play around with it some more to make any decissions yet.

 

[arton Rotaru]

Personally I aim for sun/moon only with my specular maps. The whole thing about this is, that the objects interact with the light, cam angle etc. just like in real life. There will be a whole lot of things where spec maps can enhance the visual appearance a great deal, just with sunlight. There will be other things where it's not that big of a deal. Though, any object I have added specularity so far, does look better, more lively, more believable.

I think pointing out only the things where it doesn't look to good is the wrong approach. It's not like, "ok now we have normal and spec maps, let's slap some maps onto something". It's like with everything else, it requires some practice to get good at it. Experience what can be done and what not.

Adding local lights to everything sounds pretty ugly to me. Not that it takes away the realism of the feature, local lights in masses can cripple viewer FPS quite badly. With deferred rendering, you can see many more than 6 local lights at once.

Of course you can make things look awesome when setting it up with lights, like in a photo studio. But that's not the point. We don't have such set ups for everything in real life as well.

People shouldn't expecting to much from materials. But even if the effects are subtle, the eye will recognise it, it will look more real, than with the static effects we had in the past.

[Coby Foden]

I totally agree with you.  This is the right approach to use materials.