DJ using ALT-Hostess for extra tips.

[Theresa Tennyson]

---

EvaFord wrote:

How do you chat with people who shop in Market Place?    Do ask people for tips?   I see a DJ as selling a Service  to a venue and a store owner sells a retail product.  Am I wrong?

---

If I can assume the information my DJ friend tells me is typical, most DJ's aren't actually hired by the venue - they work for tips and often are expected to pay the owner of the club for an opportunity to play rather than the other way around.

[Theresa Tennyson]

---

EvaFord wrote:

"And if your going to say, I know someone that knows someone that knows a person that knows the DJ, then... Don't, that's just silly."

No, you are right, that is just silly and is not my proof..  But if I post how I know this is a fact, then I will inadvertently give the identity of the DJ away and I will not do that in this forum.

We do not agree on the Ethics of this issue and that is ok.  I do not have an axe to grind here nor expect this issue to be solved at this moment.

As a former club owner, I do think I have a responsibility to my guests and patrons to keep their best interest foremost and if I am paying for two people, I think it is only fair that I get two people not one person dividing time.  Sort of like double dipping .

I have tried to respond to each person who took the time to write. I might have missed few.  But thank you for posting.

 

---

You could certainly tell us HOW you determined the two avatars were alts of the same person without giving us any distinguishing information. It's pretty easy to selectively hold back information. LIke how in an earlier post to this you simply said, "If I WAS to hire a DJ" as if you'd  never actually had an opportunity to do it, in this post you say you're a former club owner who obviously WOULD have had opportunities to hire DJ"s, and in a later post you state that you actually DID hire this person.  It's also easy to make things up to try to improve ones argument, of course, but that's a completely different topic.

I have to say you're exceptionally tidy for a former club owner. The club owners and promoters I know (and I know a few of them) have information about their clubs in their profile and picks, as well as multiple administrative groups listed for them, and few people bother to clean up old information from their profiles after a project goes belly-up. However, YOUR profile is empty except for a statement that :"SL is RL" and three groups, none of which are club administrative groups.

Of course you could be the ALT of a former club owner and haven't disclosed this fact.

[Zinjanthropus]

I agree with this. Muchly. 

[Teagan Tobias]

"If I can assume the information my DJ friend tells me is typical, most DJ's aren't actually hired by the venue - they work for tips and often are expected to pay the owner of the club for an opportunity to play rather than the other way around."

--------------------------------

Wow, if that is true, and I have no reason to doubt you, then not only would being your own host be ethical, but down right necessary, not to mention a very good business practice.

I think that when in SL, be in SL, and forget about what is on the other side, all to often you WILL be disappointed if you get hung up on the keyboard operator. Forget about the handler, pay attention to the Avatar.

[Mickey Vandeverre]

No, I don't ask for tips, but there is a price on the merchandise, and even though the amounts are small, well aware that every transaction is significant.

I can't speak for a DJ , for the most part though, I suspect they do it for fun, or for the love of music and interactions with people, and not for money.  I watch people's tip jars on amounts, and frankly it's rather slim. Hardly enough to pay for the skills required to run two avs that require major interaction!

I think that you are getting some negative feedback because your mission is to "out" someone.  That is not cool. And also there is some judgment going on about people who use alts.  Or maybe I am imagining that.  But that is touchy situation. 

If you have time today, click on my name on pic, to left, scan down a bit, and read the entries related to our marketplace review rating system.  some of it is about people using alts to review products on the market place.  I'm not sure that your situation is the same.  That is why I am asking you a few questions. 

Quite possibly, we are coming from same angle, concerning alts, but for some reason your situation disturbs me a bit, and I think it is because of the "outing" threat, and also because a tip is voluntary.  I'm trying to tie the two situations together, but I can't really see what your angle is clearly. 

There also might be a difference because I don't see any harm in someone running alts for a performance.  Many people are performing and acting in SL.  I don't think that anyone knows the stats on that, but suspect it is huge.

Many are actors.  And it is totally fine and encouraged.  For some, it is a creative thing.  If what you say is true, I find it quite creative and maybe even great marketing!  Maybe.

But you assume, or at least your comments imply that some of us have no morals, ethics, no willingness to stand up for something, and no that is not the case.  During the current management though, it hardly gets you anywhere.

I used to use alts, and deleted them for a couple of reasons.   Mainly, because I thought that Linden Lab sucked on that day, but another reason was because for some players it became a mission or game to "out" people.  And it became a dirty game.

There are actors all over the Internet.  It is flooded with them, and some are making huge money with it.  In SL it is encouraged.  If you can't grasp that people are acting, posing, experimenting, creating, than you are going to get a huge heart hurt, well beyond 2 or 3 dollars.  And that is true across the entire web.  Even those using alts and acting a character, with the kindest of hearts, will probably hurt someone who cannot grasp what is going on, someone who insists that SL = RL. 

That is why I asked you what your reason is for using SL.  What is your joy?  For some, their joy is to explore and experiment, and trying different characters is one of those explorations.  I don't think that it has to be disclosed on a profile, or disclosed in a conversation, because the whole culture (unless Zuckerberg takes over) is inclined to accept that.  Many years ago it was encouraged and perfectly normal.  Not sure why it became so distasteful to people.

If your joy is to go into SL and make it an extension of real life, that is perfectly fine, many do that, I do, but to do that without getting played or used as someone's prop for a story line, you have to get real hip that many others use it exactly for that reason, and that is just as acceptable as what you or I might use it for.

 

 

[EvaFord]

---

solstyse wrote:

Eva, you wrote this yourself: "

ethical or not it all comes down to the right of every person to come into SL and do whatever they like as long as it does not violate the TOS.

NO this was a QUOTE.  I totally disagree with this statement.  If you are going to comment at least read the post that I am responding to.  I do not care iof someone has 100 ALTS. If youy are asking me for a tip for a service, I think I should know if I am tipping the same person twice.  You can disagree. But I think it is an unethical business practice.

 

[EvaFord]

---

Amethyst Jetaime wrote:

---

EvaFord wrote:

...

My question has always been should TOS be changed to include the fact that some DJ's are Public Figures by the nature of the job they perform in SL.and the fact that they are asking us for money. 

If you know someone is stealing designs or taking your L$ under false pretenses you squeel.  Why is this different?In n

---

My answer is absolutely NO.  DJ's are no more public figures then anyone that works for tips or any form of lindens.  Maybe you think of them like rock stars or something but I don't.  If anyone that takes lindens in SL is a public figure, then everyone who earns money in RL is too.  I don't think you want to go there.

The difference is that stealing is wrong and I will report it everytime just as I would if you or anyone started publishing RL information. about someone without their consent.  Being paid for two jobs because YOU ARE DOING TWO JOBS is not illegal, unethical or immoral AND tipping is strictly voluntary.

---

EvaFord wrote:

"Lastly you keep saying there is a legal way to definitely find out if someone is an alt  and then chuckling. You claim your husband is an attorney and an expert on this.  So give us some links, tell us how you can legally determine if an avatar is an alt, give us proof of your assertions.   You won't because you can't.

Once again you are making this about me personally and not about the issue. But I will answer. You did ask.

No, I stated that I know for a fact in this particular case about this one DJ.  And this information was obtained legally.  I also mentioned my husbands profession in response to another attorney.  I never stated this was his field of expertise.

I think the whole community is interested in just how fast the field of Computer law is changing, especially where money is changing hands. 

 

---

I am aware there are legal ways to obtain an IP address outside of SL.  That is not any proof though.  More than one person can have the same IP address.  There are ways to track someone on various sites to find RL information too if you konw some RL facts about them.  However you can't bring the information into SL and prove it to anyone without it being a TOS violation.  As soon as you give someone a  link to an outside source and do that in SL you are disclosing RL information without the consent of the person.  So no matter what you say there is NO WAY to prove your assertions about this person in SL without violating the TOS.

There is a way to handlle your apparent 'ethical' dlilema.  Don't tip or pay anyone OR report it to LL on an AR.  I can tell you right now that LL would not get involved with this particular case as there is no TOS violation here. Nor should the TOS be changed to make it one or to make your so called 'public figures' conform to a different set of rules than anyone else.  If that happened, no one in their right mind would want to work in SL and entertain you and it would be a dull world indieed

Yes I am interested in computer law.  I'm interested in how to keep the maximum freedom on the internet and the minmum of censorship and goverment control. 

As far as your demadn that people post it in their profile they are using an alt as a host, tt doesn't matter why they would no want to they are not required to so get over it and move on.

FInally you asked for our opionions on this issues  Asserting that anyone that disagrees with you is a DJ+alt/host and that is why they feel the way they do is a childish response.  To set the record straight with you I am not a DJ or a DJ+alt/host

---

Quote: " FInally........"      I guess you didn't take the time to read my precious response.  I stated that I  GUESS that I must have angered some DJ's .  That is all.  NOthing personal, just an obversation from reading several very hostile, personal attacks.   Why don't you just discuss your views on the topic and stop making it something personal about me and demeaning my posts? 

 

[EvaFord]

---

Anabella Maidstone wrote:

I cannot begin to count the number of times someone in sl has "suspected" or "accused" another resident of being an alt and turned out to be wrong.

 

Bottom line, you have no idea who sits behind that computer until you've met in person or are Linden Labs. Even then not everyone is who they seem.

 

When will people grow some sense and get over this notion of thinking they know someone when they really don't.

---

Very good point and well stated.  _   

"When will people grow some sense and get over this notion of thinking they know someone when they really don't. "    I Guess that can go for the husband/wife/partner sitting in the other room chatting with his avatar ALT.  also.  But outing someons ALT is not the issue. I  think we should BE TOLD, if a DJ is using ALTS to obtain tips. After all it is a Business. And as the discussion shows. We all agree that Outing is not the way to do it.  People have a right to keep personal things Private..... But when you venture into Business and create a Business persona that asks to be paid then things change.

[EvaFord]

Very good point !  I agree.  I know he is one person providing two distinct se rvices and I choose to tip knowing this.

I also could choose  to only  tip once because it is part of the total business service he provides.  My point is you have the information to make an informed choice. 

[EvaFord]

---

Boudicca Littlebird wrote:

Well I don't go in clubs much now, but I always mute the host, it is not the begging for money that bothers me it is the gesture spam that drives me mad, I was once at a club in the Dublin sim and the sim lagged like hell, there was this host constantly using those silly gestures, she then complained about the lag and I shouted that she was the major cause of it, she banned me. So what I do is when I enter a club I work out who all the host are and then mute them, not only do you not get the begging but you don't get any of their gestures so can dance and have a good time without the screen full of crap, I mute all that use them, it really is affective, so as your just listening to a stream mute him and his host.

 

As for alts, lol, you can only be concerned about that if you want a relationship, if you have come here for that then you get all you deserve, real life relationships are worth a million times more than the fake ones here, you would never fit in a role play sim, how could you be a char from the past if you only concerned with a char of the present and need proof, sown your own seeds of destruction there, forget relationships here they are a joke.

---

Good advise !  I guess I am too concerned about keeping my L$ .   Not concerned at all about a relationship. 

Good music, live concerts, and events, wonderfully creative builds and the ability to chat with people from all over the world and hear native speakers speaking their language.     And to those of you who create the new Mesh designs... I am in AWE !!!!  Wonderful ! . This is what keeps me in SL. 

 

[EvaFord]

---

Theresa Tennyson wrote:

---

EvaFord wrote:

How do you chat with people who shop in Market Place?    Do ask people for tips?   I see a DJ as selling a Service  to a venue and a store owner sells a retail product.  Am I wrong?

---

If I can assume the information my DJ friend tells me is typical, most DJ's aren't actually hired by the venue - they work for tips and often are expected to pay the owner of the club for an opportunity to play rather than the other way around.

---

I believe that they are also hired by SL residents to perform at Birthday/ Rezz day/weddings/ private parties.  And yes, I have heard that some clubs take a cut. 

[EvaFord]

Do you think that being a  DJ is a SL business for making money ?  When I am being asked repeatedly to tip , is it ok to ask if I am tipping the DJ's ALT? 

[Theresa Tennyson]

---

EvaFord wrote:

Do you think that being a  DJ is a SL business for making money ?  When I am being asked repeatedly to tip , is it ok to ask if I am tipping the DJ's ALT? 

---

I have several alts and in many ways I treat them as separate "people" that do different things. They have different wardrobes, looks, hobbies and expenses. They're all partly "me" but partly individuals as well (I'm in the theatre in RL so characterization comes naturally to me.) I try to have each one stay "in character" because that's how I prefer to approach things.

Avatars have separate inventories that they generally cannot share with each other. Skins, hair, clothing, vehicles, houses, etc. can almost never be used for more than one account.

Being a DJ in SL is a business for SUPPORTING AN AVATAR. I know what sort of "income" a SL DJ has, even one that's quite popular among a certain set. It's enough to support an avatar in real style, but as far as real-world income its trivial - not even worth cashing out, realistically.

If I see two avatars at a club that are behaving in a way that entertains me, I would be glad to assist in supporting both of them. I don't see why it's such a problem if they both happen to be "owned" by the same person.

[Sassy Romano]

---

EvaFord wrote:

Do you think that being a  DJ is a SL business for making money ?  When I am being asked repeatedly to tip , is it ok to ask if I am tipping the DJ's ALT? 

---

Yes it's fine. Tipping is optional, if they do both jobs (assuming they did), they earned it.  I'm not sure how many people need to express this for it to sink in.

[EvaFord]

Paradigm shift !   I definately see your point of view.  I do agree Outing is not something I want to be a part of. I also do not want to trick people into giving me their L$. 

I want them to know exactly what they are paying for.

If I am following a DJ as a fan and tipping as good fans do...  then do not trick me with silly ALTS. and ask me to  tip them also. 

Here is what I love about SL.

Good music, live concerts, and events, wonderfully creative builds and the ability to chat with people from all over the world and hear native speakers speaking their language.     And to those of you who create the new Mesh designs and draw and paint your own textures..I admire your RL talents and skills....... I am in AWE !!!!  Wonderful ! . This is what keeps me in SL.  And as I look over this list, I realize it is the RL aspects of SL that make it so enjoyable for me. 

Thanks for a very enlightening post.

 

 

[EvaFord]

---

Sassy Romano wrote:

---

EvaFord wrote:

Do you think that being a  DJ is a SL business for making money ?  When I am being asked repeatedly to tip , is it ok to ask if I am tipping the DJ's ALT? 

---

Yes it's fine. Tipping is optional, if they do both jobs (assuming they did), they earned it.  I'm not sure how many people need to express this for it to sink in.

---

For it to sink in where?  DIscussions are for sharing ideas and opinions not being Right or Wrong.  Some people think it is fine and some want to know it they are tipping an ALT.  

 

[Dilbert Dilweg]

What if it was the other way around? Hosts owners and Dj's treating guests as so

I am not sure you are an alt so you may not enter here untill you prove your identity?. Also for any freebies. You are not entitiled, because i have reason to beleive you are an alt.. Also you may not receive the 200 lindens I am giving out today because i feel you may be an alt and you deserve nothing if you are an alt.. even if you did perform well. you still deserve nothing  lol

[EvaFord]

---

Dilbert Dilweg wrote:

What if it was the other way around? Hosts owners and Dj's treating guests as so

I am not sure you are an alt so you may not enter here untill you prove your identity?. Also for any freebies. You are not entitiled, because i have reason to beleive you are an alt.. Also you may not receive the 200 lindens I am giving out today because i feel you may be an alt and you deserve nothing if you are an alt.. even if you did perform well. you still deserve nothing  lol

---

Very interesting new take on the discussion.  I think my response is that the Host, Owner, DJ have stated their rules and I chose to disclose my status in order to receive the L$.   Now as a guest, I request the same courtesy from you.

 

[Mickey Vandeverre]

My reasons for using SL are very similar to yours.

There used to be other adventures, but those got squelched.

I like what Dilbert just offered up.

When I set out gifts in the store, am aware that people send their alts in to pick it up too, and that is awesome. 

Some have confided to me that they are shopping with an alt, and have even gone so far as to tell me the name of the alt.  I think that is the coolest thing ever, but it is not required at all!

And it is not silly. 

If it were to work both ways, as Dilbert suggested, it does change things up a bit....doesn't it?

 

[Mickey Vandeverre]

---

EvaFord wrote:

---

Dilbert Dilweg wrote:

What if it was the other way around? Hosts owners and Dj's treating guests as so

I am not sure you are an alt so you may not enter here untill you prove your identity?. Also for any freebies. You are not entitiled, because i have reason to beleive you are an alt.. Also you may not receive the 200 lindens I am giving out today because i feel you may be an alt and you deserve nothing if you are an alt.. even if you did perform well. you still deserve nothing  lol

---

Very interesting new take on the discussion.  I think my response is that the Host, Owner, DJ have stated their rules and I chose to disclose my status in order to receive the L$.   Now as a guest, I request the same courtesy from you.

 

---

was just reminiscing .....

here's something else to ponder...

back in the old days, I used to go to Dilbert's place to hang out, and some nights, maybe 2 different alts went.  Maybe some nights, 3 of us went. (at different times, not at same time)....

I'm like you, and feel that a good hostess should be tipped properly.

So all three of us, probably tipped.

What do you think about that?

[Alazarin Mondrian]

Having and using alts is not against the TOS. If that were the case I would not even be able to reply to this thread. The first misconception is that people who use alts are underhand, deceptive, evil, cheaters or whatever. The fact is that you will have people who have such negative traits and will resort to them whether or not they have multiple accounts. Multiple accounts can, and are, used for a wide range of perfectly valid reasons. One person's "Onoz U haz t3h eb1l alt of dewm" is another person's alternate account to possibly try out role play in a different themed environment, or a funds-holding account, part of an artistic project or an avatar that is used for content creation or whatever. The fact that people tend to presume the worst is more an indication of how they would use alternate accounts rather than how alternate accounts are actually used by the majority of alternate account holders.

I'm an entertainer / performer live musician in SL and I use alts as part of my performance act. I have had to deal with people demanding that I only perform with my main account as well as people demanding that I only peform with a mini-me realo human avatar and countless other pissant whiny drama whores with their idiotic demands.

Guess what? I told them all to take a hike. I don't need their business. I have my own venue where I put on live music performances 3 times a week every week. Something I've done for years and will continue to do for years to come until Second Life closes shop. Everyone's welcome but anyone who takes exception to my live act earns themselves an instant ban, eject & teleport home. I don't even waste my time attempting to discuss their imaginary grievances with them. Life's too short to waste on things like that.

 

[Crim Mip]

I fail to see the problem here. Who cares if somebody is both DJing and hosting? I DJ myself and the clubs I DJ at are small enough that I essentially act as host as well as DJ at the same time. Unless one is mixing live or getting a a ton of requests, there's plenty of time to do both. Now my personal ethics are to ask others to tip the dancers and the club. I never ask for tips for myself. I'm doing it for fun for the most part. Tips are great when I get them. Song requests are appreciated just as much.

[EvaFord]

Good for you ! 

You have clearly defined what you value and what you want from SL.   I do not have to guess about whether or not I want to visit your concert.  

Doing  what makes you happy without scamming or injuring others is impportant.  Setting clear intentions seems to be the best way to achieve that.

I love Live Events. Let me know your next one !

[EvaFord]

---

Mickey Vandeverre wrote:

My reasons for using SL are very similar to yours.

There used to be other adventures, but those got squelched.

I like what Dilbert just offered up.

When I set out gifts in the store, am aware that people send their alts in to pick it up too, and that is awesome. 

Some have confided to me that they are shopping with an alt, and have even gone so far as to tell me the name of the alt.  I think that is the coolest thing ever, but it is not required at all!

And it is not silly. 

If it were to work both ways, as Dilbert suggested, it does change things up a bit....doesn't it?

 

---

Yes, I thought Dilbert had a very interesting new take on the discussion. Here is my reply to him.

Very interesting new take on the discussion.  I think my response is that the Host, Owner, DJ have stated their rules and I chose to disclose my status in order to receive the L$.   Now as a guest, I request the same courtesy from you.

 

 

[Canoro Philipp]

there are many people that care about the real life of the users, i have encountered many, business owners should be aware of that type of users, and out of respect to them, they should prevent as much as possible that they dont get misleading information at least while the performers are working for them, because the performers are representing what the business owner wants to give to the customers, tippers, or potential customers.

that is business ethics, to try to give as much true facts about what you are offering to the customers and to try to evade any misleading information as much as possible.

there are some users that prefer to not reveal personal information, and that is respectable, as much as is respectable that a user dont want to be lied to, so i propose that during business hours the employees that do not want to reveal personal information would rather write in their profile "my personal life is private" instead of filling it out with false information. the same can be done for all the customers that care if some employees are alts, during business hours, out of respect of the customers or tippers or visitors, it is preferable that they add the name of the alt that they are using to perform.

that is taking the most effort about caring for all the potential customers to ensure that they will not be decieved as much as possible. that is good business practices.