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EvaFord

DJ using ALT-Hostess for extra tips.

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No it is very well written and yes makes a lot of sense.  I do not intend to out this DJ or file complaints. I just want to start a dialogue about the issue. 

Tell me though, if it is no big deal for a DJ to be both Hostess/ partner and DJ at the same time why  can't you just state that fact for those of us who find it offensive so we can go else where?

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That is your right as a club owner.  But if it is no big deal to hire a Dj who is also the Hostess then please tell your guests so that those of us who find it an offensive business practice can go elsewhere. 

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I fail to see the logic here...double dipping...how many copies of the same skin are sold....or buildings..hey if the skill and expertise are there for an entertainer to perform on multiple levels, at the same time I would honored to be in the prescence of such a talented individual expressing their artistic qualities "in game" for others to behold. As far as me or anyone else violating TOS to make another avi's or multiple avi's true personage available to any other party without explicit consent, causes me to reel in convulsive fits.

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That was not meant personally to you.  If you are reading the thread I HAVE angered some people and I am GUESSING that they MIGHT BE DJ's with ALTS.   This is in no way meant as an accusation. I am sorry you are offended.

ethical or not it all comes down to the right of every person to come into SL and do whatever they like as long as it does not violate the TOS.

And a business owner has the right to take my money under false pretenses? Our to present that I am being served by two people when in fact I am being served by only one?  Interesting.   And I can never understand how people can tolerate scamming and stealing intelectual property just because it is a virtual world and they can. Without morals and ethics you have no social order.  The difficult is defining them so that they work for the good of all.

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I am sorry , but if you felt the person deserved a tip, before the knowledge of multiple avi's was discovered, the person obviously deserved the tip, it was freely given not taken, and not cohersed from you, I believe it would be the same as saying i saw that actor as a cowboy in a western so now I will not see the same actor as a banker, or sureley not watch the actor in a movie playing multiple parts. Yes, it is your choice not to tip, "tip" giving of monies or compensation freely and willingly for a service or entertainment rendered as concerning the quality of service.

*follows that other person out of the room shaking his head too*

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I do not have a problem with that at all.  I never chat with the store owner or hear your real voice. 

Being a DJ is personal interaction.  I think it is terrible rude to go to a venue and not tip the people who are working and the venue.  But the assumption is that there are multiple people spending their time entertaining you.  That is what you want to reward. And I think it is fair to ask if I am tipping ALTS

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Hp Xenobuilder wrote:

I fail to see the logic here...double dipping...how many copies of the same skin are sold....or buildings..hey if the skill and expertise are there for an entertainer to perform on multiple levels, at the same time I would honored to be in the prescence of such a talented individual expressing their artistic qualities "in game" for others to behold. As far as me or anyone else violating TOS to make another avi's or multiple avi's true personage available to any other party without explicit consent, causes me to reel in convulsive fits.

I am not suggesting that true personage be revealed.... just tell me it you are using an ALT to hawk tips while you DJ.  If it is such an a talent then PLEASE tell people about it so they can flock to the venue to behold this Artiste.  But also tell those of us who find this an unethical business practice so we can go elsewhere. Fair enough?

 

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EvaFord wrote:

I do not have a problem with that at all.  I never chat with the store owner or hear your real voice. 

Being a DJ is personal interaction.  I think it is terrible rude to go to a venue and not tip the people who are working and the venue.  But the assumption is that there are multiple people spending their time entertaining you.  That is what you want to reward. And I think it is fair to ask if I am tipping ALTS

Interesting.  That doesn't really make sense. We do personal interactions with people all day long.

What are you using SL for?  what kind of joy?

 

 

 

 

--||-

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Hp Xenobuilder wrote:

I am sorry , but if you felt the person deserved a tip, before the knowledge of multiple avi's was discovered, the person obviously deserved the tip, it was freely given not taken, and not cohersed from you, I believe it would be the same as saying i saw that actor as a cowboy in a western so now I will not see the same actor as a banker, or sureley not watch the actor in a movie playing multiple parts. Yes, it is your choice not to tip, "tip" giving of monies or compensation freely and willingly for a service or entertainment rendered as concerning the quality of service.

*follows that other person out of the room shaking his head too*

If you were at a restaurant and you waiter brought your food and then changed into a different coat and brought you bread  would you tip him twice?   

 

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How do you chat with people who shop in Market Place?    Do ask people for tips?   I see a DJ as selling a Service  to a venue and a store owner sells a retail product.  Am I wrong?

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Mickey Vandeverre wrote:

We are not at a restaurant.  We are using a venue that suggested that we can use our imaginations.

 

No and if you read the original post you will see  the analogy. I am referring to:

"I believe it would be the same as saying i saw that actor as a cowboy in a western so now I will not see the same actor as a banker, or sureley not watch the actor in a movie playing multiple parts."

We aren't actors either......... and actors are not asking me for tips every 5 mins.

 

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EvaFord wrote:

That was not meant personally to you. 
If you are reading the thread I HAVE angered some people and I am GUESSING that they MIGHT BE DJ's with ALTS.  
This is in no way meant as an accusation. I am sorry you are offended.

Have you? I've not seen one response that suggests anger at all. And yes I have read every one of the responses. I NEVER get offended when someone spouts inane banter. I get offended with someone comes in and presumes they have the right to impose THEIR beliefs on me. 

 

 

Ethical or not it all comes down to the right of every person to come into SL and do whatever they like as long as it does not violate the TOS.

And a business owner has the right to take my money under false pretenses? Our to present that I am being served by two people when in fact I am being served by only one?  Interesting.  
And I can never understand how people can tolerate scamming and stealing intelectual property just because it is a virtual world and they can. Without morals and ethics you have no social order.
  The difficult is defining them so that they work for the good of all.

So now being a DJ is intellectual property? I think you are confusing two issues. IF someone is selling me a dress, that was ripped off from someone else then yes that is wrong, but to equate that with a DJ that might or might not be using an alt to host AND DJ are like comparing apples and oranges. You can't. Also SL is NOT Real Life, the only laws we are to obey is what LL has put down in the TOS and nothing more. IF you feel YOU are being ripped off, don't go back to that club. I have no desire, nor do I care if the DJ and host are one in the same and from Mars. IF they are doing their job, then I will tip them both. They are harming no one. And I seem to be going round and round with you on this, so end of discussion and I will NOT respond any further. Have a wonderful SL. 

 

Edit to fix a misspelling

 

 

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Thats just the thing you see...it is none of anyones business who ,how many, or what sex any alts of anyones is except for the proper entities with Linden Lab. For one to even hint at the compelling or the cohersion of another Resident to make their identities discoverable"meta-gaming" is borderline violation of the TOS in itself..ethics...hmmmn where do we draw the line...I must log off here now and go to my club to Dj, Host, run an alt or two for appearance of club traffic, and upload some new skins to the server...

Hapy SecondLife Adventuring !!!

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Ethical or not it all comes down to the right of every person to come into SL and do whatever they like as long as it does not violate the TOS.

 

This was what I was responding to not equating one offense to the other.  WOW.  Unbelievable. 

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Hp Xenobuilder wrote:

Thats just the thing you see...it is none of anyones business who ,how many, or what sex any alts of anyones is except for the proper entities with Linden Lab. For one to even hint at the compelling or the cohersion of another Resident to make their identities discoverable"meta-gaming" is borderline violation of the TOS in itself..ethics...hmmmn where do we draw the line...I must log off here now and go to my club to Dj, Host, run an alt or two for appearance of club traffic, and upload some new skins to the server...

Hapy SecondLife Adventuring !!!

When you are begging me for tips evey five minutes I think I have a right to know if I am tipping an ALT AND the DJ as one person. So we disagree and that is fine.    Good night and thanks for the comments.

 

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Goodnight everyone.  Thanks for all the lively comments. This was my first attempt at Forum and you guys were tough ! 

I did learn some new things about SL and the people who play this very seriously as a game.

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Eva, you wrote this yourself: "ethical or not it all comes down to the right of every person to come into SL and do whatever they like as long as it does not violate the TOS.

And nomatter what your personal feelling on the subject of alts is, there is nothing in the TOS banning the use of alts, or limiting the solicitation of tips or gratutities. You still have yet to explain exactly in what way multiple characters being controlled by a single typist is harmful, decietful, or dishonest to others.

It is KNOWN that in sl, there is no limit to the number of avatars a person may have. It is KNOWN that tips and gratuities are given on a voluntary basis. Assumptions are not legal grounds for calling fraud.

I fail to see how you are calling this faudulent. In terms of the customer experience, are the customers getting what they pay for? Well, they must be, since they aren't obligated to pay anything! If you are the owner of the land, then you can put a clause in your land's covenant which bans alts, and enforce that with all the seal you wish. But the fact remains that you still have yet to provide a single shred of evidence of wrongdoing by the person who you have originally posted about. there are several things going against the case you're trying to make here.

1. There is no promise required by LL or by any of it's users, written OR implied,  that an avatar is an original, not an alt.

2. Any linden exchanges are for goods or services rendered. Any gratuities or tips that are offered or given on a VOLUNTARY BASIS are for the perception that such goods or services had in fact been rendered.

3. In seven, count them, SEVEN pages, you have yet to demonstrate any way in which those who had made any transaction had been harmed. Is this Dj/hostess taking more money than what they bring into the club? If so, then maybe an IM to the owner would be an appropriate measure to take. If not, thenwhy is this such an issue to you?

4. You have yet to address the fact that both the Dj and the Hostess re VIRTUAL people, who earn their respective tips based on the level of service provided. And because they are in the VIRTUAL world, which is a seperate entity from the real world altogether, you fail to demonstrate why real world factors such as how many people are at the keyboards really pertains to this issue. You do mention double dipping. But let me ask you this... Is the club then responsible for providing each of it's workers with teh federally mandated minimum wage? Unless both avatars are earning $5.25 US dollars per hour (federal minimum wage, equalling 1296 lindens per hour) then standard labor laws o not apply. Keep in mind that several residents pay less per week for property, and the average linden tip is far, far less than that. In the state that I live in, minimum wage is $7.25/hr (1790 lindens.) If we all could earn that as dj's hostesses, and dancers, then all the complaints of tier wouldn't exist!

5. How much time have you spent trying to justify anger at this person, compared to how much money you lost by this "scam" I mean, really, how big of a tip do you give? you have spent at least an hour $5.25-7.25 US, or 1296 to 1790 lindens worht of your time, possibly more depending on state trying to justify this anger you feel at the person who merely double logs, IF you're correct about that beign what is going on.

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EvaFord wrote:

...

My question has always been should TOS be changed to include the fact that some DJ's are Public Figures by the nature of the job they perform in SL.and the fact that they are asking us for money. 

If you know someone is stealing designs or taking your L$ under false pretenses you squeel.  Why is this different?In n

My answer is absolutely NO.  DJ's are no more public figures then anyone that works for tips or any form of lindens.  Maybe you think of them like rock stars or something but I don't.  If anyone that takes lindens in SL is a public figure, then everyone who earns money in RL is too.  I don't think you want to go there.

The difference is that stealing is wrong and I will report it everytime just as I would if you or anyone started publishing RL information. about someone without their consent.  Being paid for two jobs because YOU ARE DOING TWO JOBS is not illegal, unethical or immoral AND tipping is strictly voluntary.


EvaFord wrote:

"Lastly you keep saying there is a legal way to definitely find out if someone is an alt  and then chuckling. You claim your husband is an attorney and an expert on this.  So give us some links, tell us how you can legally determine if an avatar is an alt, give us proof of your assertions.   You won't because you can't.

Once again you are making this about me personally and not about the issue. But I will answer. You did ask.

No, I stated that I know for a fact in this particular case about this one DJ.  And this information was obtained legally.  I also mentioned my husbands profession in response to another attorney.  I never stated this was his field of expertise.

I think the whole community is interested in just how fast the field of Computer law is changing, especially where money is changing hands. 

 

I am aware there are legal ways to obtain an IP address outside of SL.  That is not any proof though.  More than one person can have the same IP address.  There are ways to track someone on various sites to find RL information too if you konw some RL facts about them.  However you can't bring the information into SL and prove it to anyone without it being a TOS violation.  As soon as you give someone a  link to an outside source and do that in SL you are disclosing RL information without the consent of the person.  So no matter what you say there is NO WAY to prove your assertions about this person in SL without violating the TOS.

There is a way to handlle your apparent 'ethical' dlilema.  Don't tip or pay anyone OR report it to LL on an AR.  I can tell you right now that LL would not get involved with this particular case as there is no TOS violation here. Nor should the TOS be changed to make it one or to make your so called 'public figures' conform to a different set of rules than anyone else.  If that happened, no one in their right mind would want to work in SL and entertain you and it would be a dull world indieed

Yes I am interested in computer law.  I'm interested in how to keep the maximum freedom on the internet and the minmum of censorship and goverment control. 

As far as your demadn that people post it in their profile they are using an alt as a host, tt doesn't matter why they would no want to they are not required to so get over it and move on.

FInally you asked for our opionions on this issues  Asserting that anyone that disagrees with you is a DJ+alt/host and that is why they feel the way they do is a childish response.  To set the record straight with you I am not a DJ or a DJ+alt/host

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I cannot begin to count the number of times someone in sl has "suspected" or "accused" another resident of being an alt and turned out to be wrong.

Bottom line, you have no idea who sits behind that computer until you've met in person or are Linden Labs. Even then not everyone is who they seem.

When will people grow some sense and get over this notion of thinking they know someone when they really don't.

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Well I don't go in clubs much now, but I always mute the host, it is not the begging for money that bothers me it is the gesture spam that drives me mad, I was once at a club in the Dublin sim and the sim lagged like hell, there was this host constantly using those silly gestures, she then complained about the lag and I shouted that she was the major cause of it, she banned me. So what I do is when I enter a club I work out who all the host are and then mute them, not only do you not get the begging but you don't get any of their gestures so can dance and have a good time without the screen full of crap, I mute all that use them, it really is affective, so as your just listening to a stream mute him and his host.

 

As for alts, lol, you can only be concerned about that if you want a relationship, if you have come here for that then you get all you deserve, real life relationships are worth a million times more than the fake ones here, you would never fit in a role play sim, how could you be a char from the past if you only concerned with a char of the present and need proof, sown your own seeds of destruction there, forget relationships here they are a joke.

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"she then complained about the lag and I shouted that she was the major cause of it"


lol....I like your point of view...made me smile when I imagined that situation :0)

 

 

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EvaFord wrote:

 

If you were at a restaurant and you waiter brought your food and then changed into a different coat and brought you bread  would you tip him twice?   

 

Probably not. If he brought me my food and then performed music while I was eating I'd certainly tiip him more though, providing both his table service and musicianship were good enough.

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