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EvaFord

DJ using ALT-Hostess for extra tips.

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The amazing American Bluegrass band Hot Rize, play as their own support act.

Well they did when I saw them years ago.

They don't mention it, but the audience soon twigs to the fact by the use of particular melodies and musical passages and double entendre' comedy.

When realised, the paying audience was visibly enthused and amazed that this was the case. It was yet another highlight to an excellent performance and ensured a standing ovation or three.

I would pay to see them again if they are still around.

*edited to remove the double instance of the word amazing/replaced with excellent.

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As far as I can see there are only two ways to know if the DJ and the Host are the same person, the DJ told you, or you broke ToS to find out. And if you are not talking then I would guess the latter of the two. And no, I am not attacking you, I am only looking at what I see as the only options to come up with that data. Or give me some other way of finding out it is the same person, because I don't see any.

And if your going to say, I know someone that knows someone that knows a person that knows the DJ, then... don't, that's just silly.

And I see no problem with the DJ and Host being the same person, no problem at all, none what so ever, not even a little.

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EvaFord wrote:

WOW I am amazed at the nerve this touches. I do not think I am the appropriate target for your hostility.
"Methinks the lady doth protest too much"

Revealing information is NOT the issue.  I t is not my place to out this ALT to his fans. But a Club owner has the right to know who she/he is hiring and if they are subjecting their guests to ridicule. 

Please KNOW that I will NEVER post this info. It is un ehtical.  That is the ISSUE. Business ETHICS.

Honesty in business practices is MY concern.  And that HONESTY falls on the shoulders of the business owners and the Club owners.  There should be a code of Ethics. 

 EvaFord wrote:

There is a DJ in SL who uses an Alt as his Hostess/Partner. He claims "She" is voice verified implying that this ALT is female. He even made a fake first life profile with a fake photo of this ALT Partner.   I find this unethical. Guests are being asked to Tip the DJ's Alt.  I see it as a Scam. 

Since this is a Public figure in SL. Someone asking you for L$, is it ok to post information about this in your profile?  I feel that people who ask to be compensated in SL, need to be required to be honest as to where that money is going.

Public Figures should be exempt from some TOS disclosures.



Actually you did ask if this were ok to post in your profile.

You are not allowed under TOS to post any private information about a person that they don't not themselves choose to divulge in public.  Why would you ask if it were ok to him to publish this in his profile?  He's allowed to divulge all the RL or personal information he wants about himself and his alts.  However he is not required to.

I was responding to this.  I pointed out that you have no proof of your assertion that holds any water since anyone can manipulate any so called proof you have.  The tone of your entire first post was that you wanted to out this person because you thought being paid double for doing two jobs was wrong.  I just don't follow your logic in that and feel that your wanting to out them by posting the information about his alt was due to some personal grudge or the tactics of a drama queen.

You never mentioned anything about being a club owner or about ethical business practices in SL.  But I'll answer you now.  A club owner has no more right to personal RL information that anyone else.  Knowing that one avatar is driven by the same RL person as another avatar is personal RL information.

Again, if someone is capable of doing two jobs at once using two avatars and does them well enough that people want to tip both avatars, what is unethical?  The person is doing two jobs.  If you don't want to tip them, no one is forcing you to.

As far as a code of ethics who would write it?  Ethics is a set of principles based on morals.  SL is an international community of people from many different cultural and religious backgrounds.  What may be ethical/moral to you may be unethical/immoral to another person

Lastly you keep saying there is a legal way to definitely find out if someone is an alt  and then chuckling. You claim your husband is an attorney and an expert on this.  So give us some links, tell us how you can legally determine if an avatar is an alt, give us proof of your assertions.   You won't because you can't.

 

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"And if your going to say, I know someone that knows someone that knows a person that knows the DJ, then... Don't, that's just silly."

No, you are right, that is just silly and is not my proof..  But if I post how I know this is a fact, then I will inadvertently give the identity of the DJ away and I will not do that in this forum.

We do not agree on the Ethics of this issue and that is ok.  I do not have an axe to grind here nor expect this issue to be solved at this moment.

As a former club owner, I do think I have a responsibility to my guests and patrons to keep their best interest foremost and if I am paying for two people, I think it is only fair that I get two people not one person dividing time.  Sort of like double dipping .

I have tried to respond to each person who took the time to write. I might have missed few.  But thank you for posting.

 

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Sorry, you misunderstood my question.  I was not asking about my posting it on MY profile. I asked what you would do in YOUR profile.  I can see the confusion. I stated how I felt and wanted to know how others felt. 

 

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OH, wait, I know, I get it now. Your a DJ and your testing the waters to see if you will be ruffling any feathers if you Host with an ALT at the same time that you DJ.

Does I win the prize?

No, oh Frell, I thought I had it.

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" He's allowed to divulge all the RL or personal information he wants about himself and his alts.  However he is not required to."

Yes,  this is true and a good point.  If you were a club owner and hiring a Dj who wants his girlfriend/ partner to Hostess would you feel cheated if he only gave you 50% Dj and 50% Hostess?  I did.   I also felt embarassed that I allowed my guests to be duped. 

 

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You wrote: " You never mentioned anything about being a club owner or about ethical business practices in SL.  But I'll answer you now.  A club owner has no more right to personal RL information that anyone else.  Knowing that one avatar is driven by the same RL person as another avatar is personal RL information."


 My whole discussion has been about the ethics of this issue, not necessarly personal info about me.  I have volunteered it when necessary.  And yes this is TOS as it reads now. I know this and so does everyone else. But we as a community need to address this issue of anonmymity when it comes to scammers. Big ones or little ones.

My question has always been should TOS be changed to include the fact that some DJ's are Public Figures by the nature of the job they perform in SL.and the fact that they are asking us for money. 

If you know someone is stealing designs or taking your L$ under false pretenses you squeel.  Why is this different?

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Judgemental? there was nothing judgemental in anythiing I said, EvaFord, merely stating facts and if YOU don't like the way things are in SL then there is this little red x in the upper right hand corner, click it and move on with your RL. End of discussion. 

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Dillon Levenque wrote:

Well, let me help: In my case I guess you pinched the "BS" nerve, as in, this is BS. Right from the start I thought you were on some kind of mission and nothing you've said since has changed that opinion; quite the opposite.

The only honest way you could KNOW that your DJ and his Hostess are one and the same is if he gave you his login credentials (a TOS violation, so hopefully he didn't do that) and you personally logged in as both avatars, thus confirming that the DJ can control both avatars. Anything else acquired honestly, including the DJ himself publicly announcing that the Hostess is his alt, doesn't leave you KNOWing anything.

You've ducked, you've dodged, you've chuckled knowingly. It's been pointed out to you time and time again that even if exactly what you describe is happening really is happening, it is not only not a TOS violation but not even that big a deal ethically.

You are grinding that axe so hard it won't be long before you get all the way down to the handle. Watch for sawdust.

^^THIS^^

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Eva, I take issue with your arguements for a couple of reasons. Sometimes it's not so much what you say, as how you say it. And to be honest, several people who seem to feel the same way I do have been quite blunt. I hope that by posting more diplomatically I can either make you see that this is not the big deal that you seem to think it is, or maybe give you a chance to change my mind.

Before I get to my opinion though, allow me a moment of disclosure. In SL, I am a roleplayer. I have several alts. Some of those alts were influential to storylines within different sims. Some are even staff members on certain sims. the experience I am speaking from, and the perspective I am looking at this through, is as someone who has actually been two people in the same place at the same time. I am also speaking from the experience of someone who's been told by someone else who was double logged that they were double logged. And as someone who has been caught talking to someone about one of their alts not knowing it was the same perseon. (thankfully,. I had nothing but compliments for the person.)

1. Double logging is NOT easy. Nor is it a violation of TOS. So if this person truly is both characters, then they deserve to be rewarded for being both.

2. Lindens are worth a fraction of what real money is. So if this is a scam, it's only worth pennies to the "victims"

3. Tipping is voluntary. So really, there's no reason to get so upset. It is not madatory or compulsory.

4. SL is a virtual world, with virtual people. The number of rl people at rl keyboards is irrelevant.

5. You say you have proof of your allegations, but so far all you did was tell people they were wrong when they took guesses to what your proof is. In other words, you still have not provided any proof.

6. What method do you think you have of effectively outing this real life person as two avatars without committing a violation of the TOS yourself by divulging rl information about someone else without their express consent?

7. Several people have asked why you think that this is such a violation of ethics, but you have yet to provide a good reason why.

From my point of view, Linden Lab allows people to have as many avatars as they would wish. There are only two limitations to how many may be online at any given time. One is the user's hardware. The other is the speed at which the flesh and blood human being sitting in the real life chair can think and type. In a virtual environment, your interactions are NOT with the flesh and blood person, or with the hardware at their disposal. It is only with the pixel representation they have created within the world of second life. Thus, you are interacting with two avatars, and in the case of both, tipping is a strictly voluntary action. You are out no more money than you choose to part with in return for the service provided by these avatars. The amount that you choose to part with is contingent with the quality of work they are doing.

the arguement of ethics is highly subjective. particularly in light of the "virtual world, virtual people" reality of sl. I mean no offense to you by saying this, but I get the feeling that you are taking sl way mroe seriously than you should if you plan to enjoy it.

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"Lastly you keep saying there is a legal way to definitely find out if someone is an alt  and then chuckling. You claim your husband is an attorney and an expert on this.  So give us some links, tell us how you can legally determine if an avatar is an alt, give us proof of your assertions.   You won't because you can't.

Once again you are making this about me personally and not about the issue. But I will answer. You did ask.

No, I stated that I know for a fact in this particular case about this one DJ.  And this information was obtained legally.  I also mentioned my husbands profession in response to another attorney.  I never stated this was his field of expertise.

I think the whole community is interested in just how fast the field of Computer law is changing, especially where money is changing hands. 

 

 

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"No, I stated that I know for a fact in this particular case about this one DJ. And this information was obtained legally. I also mentioned my husbands profession in response to another attorney. I never stated this was his field of expertise."

I find that an anonymous avatar representing as if they are giving legal advice, is much more threatening to the "community."

Also find that someone who is expressing that they know of someone's RL info just as threatening.

"I think the whole community is interested in just how fast the field of Computer law is changing, especially where money is changing hands."

maybe not the whole community, but a few have asked you for the links.

I've studied enough, always willing to brush up on the latest, so yes, by all means, link to the latest that you are referring to.

Any time that an avatar has shown up on my property representing as an attorney or anything even closely related, you can be dang sure I'm going to check that out, and I did.  They did not represent who they said they represented.

I find the "attorney" ploy much more menacing than a multi-tasking DJ that does not "require" a payment for services.

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lets talk about the ethics of it.

ill try to see your point: if a business owner lies to gain customers, that is unethical. it is the responsability of an ethical business owner that the customer will recieve the service or products just as is advertised, without any lies at all.

a problem happens when we try to mix real life and second life, specially in the identity issue, because in second life there is no sure way to know the identity of a user, the business owner can not do much to assure the customers that the real life identity of his/her employee is as the employee claims, so is pretty much out of her/his hands, while the owner may have strong ethics and do what she/he can, is limited to the restrictions that Linden Lab gives her/him.

for me, it is the same level of ethics that can be applied to a person who is not representing a business than someone offering a service or product. in cases of doubtful identity we can only trust what the other person claims to be.

that is my take on the ethics of it.

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Darkness Anubis wrote:

If you have access to a way to read the 2 IP Addys and those 2 IP Addys are the same even THAT is not proof that the human behind each avatar is the same person. It could well be for example a husband and wife connecting through the same router. In which you would see the IP Addy attached to the router not the ones attached to each machine.

You have no proof. Anything else is pure speculation or open to your own photoshopping to alter to your whims.

So really the intent of this thread is completely moot. Since no proof means you have no way knowing for a fact they are the same person.

Setting that aside to put something like this in your profile will open you up to being AR'd yourself which I assume is not something you want.

If you AR the DJ/Host as Fraud then you once again will need proof and even then LL probably will not see this as fraud but mearly as another resident vs resident dispute they will refuse to be involved in.

About the only thing you can do is get ahold of the club owner personal and make you "proof" available to them. Then it is up to them to act or not. Of course if you are proved wrong then you will look the fool not the DJ/Hostess.

In the end SL is not the real world. It is a private space provided and governed by LL. They set the rules. There is no free speach LL can and does dictate the nature of what we may say to each other in world be it in chat, IM or even our profiles. You agreed to this when you clicked th accept button. They have decide that no naming and shaming is the way to go so that is how it is. Unless you want to take LL to court and get that part of thier rules declared invalid over a few L$ voluntary transaction worth a few cents. In which case knock yourself out its your personal bankroll not mine.

This seems to be one of the posts that was missed in the replies.. so I wanted to bring it back because it makes such perfect sense (and is in no way confrontational=)

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I find that an anonymous avatar representing as if they are giving legal advice, is much more threatening to the "

I find the "attorney" ploy much more menacing than a multi-tasking DJ that does not "require" a payment for services.

What in the world are you talkiing about ?  Guess I have angered a lot of DJ's who are using alts . But no not giving out free legal advise. Not my intension or field.  Sorry if I gave that impression.  Maybe a better way to state it is that  our community should be interested in all the fast changes in Computer Law and cyber crime. 

 

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Anyone with the admin credientials to the stream has the ability to see any ip's connected "listening to stream", in any club or venue streaming media , whether it is audio or otherwise as concerning different media forms. Behind a router, networked machines, only the routers' ip. I would be more worried about who is supplying the stream, and who has access to the admin credientials on the stream than how many alt's as host or hostesses a Dj or club owner runs.

As far as someone running alts for the purpose of entertainment goes, in my opinion if it was one person on multiple machines or dual logged, hey, if he/she had both avi's in use and both were attentive and never afk while on duty, I want to hire him/her to work in my new club   !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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Elegantly stated.  It may not be something we can solve any time soon but at least talking about it lets others know that some people find it an offensive business practice. 

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EvaFord wrote:


I find that an anonymous avatar representing as if they are giving legal advice, is much more threatening to the "

I find the "attorney" ploy much more menacing than a multi-tasking DJ that does not "require" a payment for services.

What in the world are you talkiing about ? 
Guess I have angered a lot of DJ's who are using alts .
But no not giving out free legal advise. Not my intension or field.  Sorry if I gave that impression.  Maybe a better way to state it is that  our community should be interested in all the fast changes in Computer Law and cyber crime. 

 

I have bolded what I want to comment on. Personally, I AM NOT a DJ, nor do I have any alts, in the 4+ years I have been on SL, I see no need to have more than one, and it seems that once again YOU have made accusations that cannot be proven UNLESS someone from this discussion says otherwise. And as was pointed out. What difference does it make to you anyway? If it's one or two people, IF they are capable of doing both and suceeding, what do YOU care? ethical or not it all comes down to the right of every person to come into SL and do whatever they like as long as it does not violate the TOS. I can never understand why people want to impose their ethical, religious, rightous morals onto others, just because they think they can. It's insane. *shakes her head and walks out of the room*

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I tried to address each point as requested.  I do see your point. 

1. Double logging is NOT easy. Nor is it a violation of TOS. So if this person truly is both characters, then they deserve to be rewarded for being both.

No it is not against TOS. But they do not deserve anything from people who find it an offensive business practice to hawk tips as a partner/ girlfriend while being tipped as a DJ. 

2. Lindens are worth a fraction of what real money is. So if this is a scam, it's only worth pennies to the "victims" 

A scam is a scam. Taking money under false pretenses is unethical no matter how big the sum.

3. Tipping is voluntary. So really, there's no reason to get so upset. It is not madatory or compulsory.   True, but I am tipping on a false assumption.  Let people decide if using an alt is ok.  It may not matter to you, but it matters to me.  I want to know if I am tipping an ALT. Just like I want to know I am purchasing a green dress not a blue one.

4. SL is a virtual world, with virtual people. The number of rl people at rl keyboards is irrelevant.

Most of the time yes, I agree.  But if you are working for me and asking my guests for money, then if I hire two people and pay two people I should not get 50% DJ and 50 % Hostess.  

5. You say you have proof of your allegations, but so far all you did was tell people they were wrong when they took guesses to what your proof is. In other words, you still have not provided any proof.

 If I post how I know this is a fact, then I will inadvertently give the identity of the DJ away and I will not do that in this forum. This is not about outing the DJ or filing a complaint. 

6. What method do you think you have of effectively outing this real life person as two avatars without committing a violation of the TOS yourself by divulging rl information about someone else without their express consent?

This is not my issue. We need to revisit the anonymity issues and  TOS to make SL a safer place.  I feel like I am being gaged. If it is no big deal to use an alt as DJ and Hostess then why not tell people???

 

7. Several people have asked why you think that this is such a violation of ethics, but you have yet to provide a good reason why.

What I wrote: As a former club owner, I do think I have a responsibility to my guests and patrons to keep their best interest foremost and if I am paying for two people, I think it is only fair that I get two people not one person dividing time.  Sort of like double dipping. I personally feel  that when money is involved people have the right to know that they are paying an ALT of the DJ they have already tipped.

Let me know if I missed something. And thanks for you insight.

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I was talking about this....

"Nope wrong again. Chuckle chuckle chuckle.... I learned of the Identity thru totally honest means. And my husband is an attorney and he assures me that this area of law is evolving. And yes, the definition of a Public Figure is just emerging in SL. "

I slipped up on that once myself, but if I recall, got a time out for it, and it was wrong.

but there is at least an implication there.

"Maybe a better way to state it is that our community should be interested in all the fast changes in Computer Law and cyber crime."

Yes, once again, very interested, and study it weekly....

so where is the current link that you are referring to.

Will be happy to chat with you about "ethics"...there are quite a few levels and layers on that. But can hardly do that, unless I can read what you are referring to.  Certainly have had some issues with that lately, but it concerns people paying for product and not the "tipping" issue that you are talking about.  That is voluntary, as many people have pointed out.  Not long ago, I was at a "New User" drop-off point, where there were several little tutorials on using SL, and there was one that addressed giving other users money.  It was rather comical to me, because it was worded as if a five year old were coming in to roam about, but suppose it was a CYA kinda thing.

You're going to have a heck of a time getting a decent discussion on this, because SL = RL is not a philosophy held by all users.  In fact, quite the opposite, and I'm surprised you haven't noticed that yet.  People are VERY clear in their profiles on how they attempt the adventure, generally.

It is not fair to require that some give up RL information in a sea of avatars that are not required to, which is what you are asking.  That is ripe for abuse on so many levels, not enough room here. 

Only once have I prepaid to go to a concert, and that is generally not the custom, and that was a live performance.  You are talking about a DJ.  Not the same.  Generally, a payment to attend is not required. 

If you are talking about requiring RL info from every person that takes in money, than you've got a mess of other people to talk to, that take in way more money than a DJ and a hostess.

 

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