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EvaFord

DJ using ALT-Hostess for extra tips.

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What status are you disclosing?  not real clear.  is it...

a) your real life info

b) that you do not use an alt

c) that you are an alt

d) that you are xyz's alt

you are asking us to be sensitive to your needs, the way you are using SL, yet there is not much effort shown in which you would be willing to allow others the same space, the same sensitivity.

I quit using alts because someone came into the forum and threatened to destroy me.  And then persisted with a vengeance for another 3 years.

Similar to what you did.  But he had agreement and back-up in place.  All depends upon how dramatic you make your original plea.  His was quite good.  Quite a wordsmith.

I hope you cut slack, and don't carry that with you for three years. 

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Mickey Vandeverre wrote:


EvaFord wrote:


Dilbert Dilweg wrote:

What if it was the other way around? Hosts owners and Dj's treating guests as so

I am not sure you are an alt so you may not enter here untill you prove your identity?. Also for any freebies. You are not entitiled, because i have reason to beleive you are an alt.. Also you may not receive the 200 lindens I am giving out today because i feel you may be an alt and you deserve nothing if you are an alt.. even if you did perform well. you still deserve nothing  lol

Very interesting new take on the discussion.  I think my response is that the Host, Owner, DJ have stated their rules and I chose to disclose my status in order to receive the L$.   Now as a guest, I request the same courtesy from you.

 

was just reminiscing .....

here's something else to ponder...

back in the old days, I used to go to Dilbert's place to hang out, and some nights, maybe 2 different alts went.  Maybe some nights, 3 of us went. (at different times, not at same time)....

I'm like you, and feel that a good hostess should be tipped properly.

So all three of us, probably tipped.

What do you think about that?

:)


HUmmmmmm again interesting.   I definately do feel that a Good Host/Hostess should be Fairly compensated. For me the issue then becomes how you define Good  and how I define Good.  These are value judgements based on our own personal values.

Here is my take on it:   I value Fairness and integrity in Business matters.  I want to beable to make a destinction between the person devoting full time to the duties and the ALT who I am also tipping as the DJ.  I think it is a Fair request.  Sometimes there is more than one Host/Hostess in the room.  How would you feel if all the attention and tips go to the Hostess/Partner of the DJ because she is dancing with him ?  You maybe working harder and giving more but that is not the perception. Guests are deceived into believing you are equal.

If this is business, and I need this information to make my decisions on how to spend my L$, then why is it such a big deal to tell me that the DJ is also a Hostess, so I can tip according to my personal values.  

I do not care what this DJ does with Alts anywhere else in SL, that does not concern me.  But if I am being asked to tip I want to know if I am tipping an ALT.  If it doesn't bother you that is ok, your values are different. But aren't my values just as important when it comes to spending my L$ in world ?  And to those people who say well just do not tip then... that is against my values also.

Whatcha think?

 

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Canoro Philipp wrote:

there are many people that care about the real life of the users, i have encountered many, business owners should be aware of that type of users, and out of respect to them, they should prevent as much as possible that they dont get misleading information at least while the performers are working for them, because the performers are representing what the business owner wants to give to the customers, tippers, or potential customers.

that is business ethics, to try to give as much true facts about what you are offering to the customers and to try to evade any misleading information as much as possible.

there are some users that prefer to not reveal personal information, and that is respectable, as much as is respectable that a user dont want to be lied to, so i propose that during business hours the employees that do not want to reveal personal information would rather write in their profile "my personal life is private" instead of filling it out with false information. the same can be done for all the customers that care if some employees are alts, during business hours, out of respect of the customers or tippers or visitors, it is preferable that they add the name of the alt that they are using to perform.

that is taking the most effort about caring for all the potential customers to ensure that they will not be decieved as much as possible. that is good business practices.

I am sure you have many Loyal customers and fans.  And I hope they are generous because of your respect and concern for them.and reward you for it.  

 

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I don't think that my values are all that different.  I have the same issue with marketplace reviews that are placed by alts.

It is a deception that affects the customer.  It also affects a hard working merchant that is not gaming the system, that probably has similar values as yours, and probably conducts business the way you approve of.

But I think that the situation you are describing is very different. 

Because someone expresses that they don't think your situation is something to get bent about, does not mean that they have entirely different values than you.

 

 

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Wait


Mickey Vandeverre wrote:

What status are you disclosing?  not real clear.  is it...

a) your real life info

b) that you do not use an alt

c) that you are an alt

d) that you are xyz's alt

you are asking us to be sensitive to your needs, the way you are using SL, yet there is not much effort shown in which you would be willing to allow others the same space, the same sensitivity.

I quit using alts because someone came into the forum and threatened to destroy me.  And then persisted with a vengeance for another 3 years.

Similar to what you did.  But he had agreement and back-up in place.  All depends upon how dramatic you make your original plea.  His was quite good.  Quite a wordsmith.

I hope you cut slack, and don't carry that with you for three years. 

Wait? I am  lost here?  My point is that you stated your rules clearly and I either agreed to follow them in order to receive L$. or I did not.    So I am asking you to reveal that you are using an ALT in order to receive my tips.  NOT asking you to reveal personal info about your life.

Personal info has nothing to do with it. Making  an ALT giving it a RL and a fake photo and making it your partner and begging me to tip "her" is not acceptable to me.

That is terrible you got burned that way.  No I definately feel that ALTS can serve a purpose in SL and no one has a right to your personal info in SL. EVER.  And to out someone or destroy a business or do hurtful things to others is definately NOT acceptable to me. I am so sorry that happened to you.

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The problem with this question for me is (and I have never worked any 'job' in sl) that you are not tipping the individual for  their identity you are tipping them for what they perform. If there is a DJ and you tip the DJ is because you liked the music. You do not "have" to tip the host/hostness for the music. No matter who is behind the DJ that task got performed.

If you are one to feel that the host./hostess should be tipped because they made you feel welcomed, (thats the point of them saying the hellos and the friendly banter; its not the magnificence of that skin you wore that prompted them to make you feel comfortable), then you tip the host/hostess.

The fact that both avis could be the same individual is irrelevant. Two JOBS got performed. If you are hired at company A as a janitor when everyone goes home, but while they are there you serve the lunch in the employee cafeteria, do you think you should only get paid for ONE of those jobs?

Be real. Who someone's alt is is their business.

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------

 

I think that when in SL, be in SL, and forget about what is on the other side, all to often you WILL be disappointed if you get hung up on the keyboard operator. Forget about the handler, pay attention to the Avatar.

 

 

---------

 

Couldn't have put this any better.

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"Wait? I am lost here? My point is that you stated your rules clearly and I either agreed to follow them in order to receive L$. or I did not. So I am asking you to reveal that you are using an ALT in order to receive my tips. NOT asking you to reveal personal info about your life.

Personal info has nothing to do with it. Making an ALT giving it a RL and a fake photo and making it your partner and begging me to tip "her" is not acceptable to me.

That is terrible you got burned that way. No I definately feel that ALTS can serve a purpose in SL and no one has a right to your personal info in SL. EVER. And to out someone or destroy a business or do hurtful things to others is definately NOT acceptable to me."

 

ok, well I guess you've changed your mind during the course of the thread then, because in the beginning you said you were sitting on someone's Real Life info.  The fact that you even went after that, in the first place, is questionable.

Ultimately, I did not get burned, learned a valuable lesson.  There is a paranoid person lurking around each corner, revved up and ready to make some false claims.

 

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I think you should tip based on ability. If the AVATARS you see are impressing you, tip them. It's entirely possible that one person playing two avatars well can be more impressive than two people each playing one avatar badly. As far as unfairness to other hosts/hostesses are concerned, trust me - the owner's going to hear about it and be expected to deal with it, but it takes place behind the scenes and privately.

Second Life is a created world and many of the creators prefer to remain separate. If people behind the screen are that important to you, there's a widely-available place where you can interact with all the people you want. It's called "real life".

I'm curious about how this all relates to the original point of this thread, which was that it should be allowable to disclose information about DJ's and alts due to DJ's being "public figures." That seems to be forgotten. Are you now saying you were wrong about that? Please don't say you never meant that and make me cut-and-paste all your comments about it.

We also still don't know even the techniques or generically-described events that caused you to come to the conclusion about this DJ/hostess, which certainly could be told without revealing identities. Have you considered that the hostess may be the "real" person and the "male" DJ is the creation?

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Mickey Vandeverre wrote:

I don't think that my values are all that different.  I have the same issue with marketplace reviews that are placed by alts.

It is a deception that affects the customer.  It also affects a hard working merchant that is not gaming the system, that probably has similar values as yours, and probably conducts business the way you approve of.

But I think that the situation you are describing is very different. 

Because someone expresses that they don't think your situation is something to get bent about, does not mean that they have entirely different values than you.

 

 

Yes, and that is what I meant when I said Paradigm Shift.   Theser posts have made a difference in my thinking. 

I have been very ill and shut in and SL gives me a place to chat and learn and discuss issues.   I do know that some people use ALTS to cause great personal harm.  My topic  may be insignificant in comparison, I know. 

  I was not aware of the damage ALTS can do to business owners. That definately needs to be addressed and made known.  .   And No, this is just an interesting topic to discuss here with the hope for change.

It is not something to destroy my love for SL  and the new friends I am making here. Thank you for for offering your concern.  I do feel we have similiar values.

 

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---------

Very good point !  I agree.  I know he is one person providing two distinct se rvices and I choose to tip knowing this.

I also could choose  to only  tip once because it is part of the total business service he provides.  My point is you have the information to make an informed choice.

-----------

 

I have never been a DJ in sl but, I have been a host. From what I've heard being a DJ is a work load ...in and of it's self ...and I know from personal experience being a host is no easy job.

 From being steadily alert to every avatar entering a sim and greeting each one accordindly to browsing through your inventory for suitable gestures which apply to whatever event you have going on, to inviting people onto your dance chimera and keeping the crowd lively and alert, alll while battling that "club scene" LAG MONSTER!.

In respect to all these tasks  I say, if this DJ was indeed alting and performing all these tasks he deserves tips as both characters!! That way if you prefer his hosting as opposed to his DJing, you can tip his little host girl.. or if you prefer his DJing .. tip the DJ toon.. or if you prefer both, then tip both..

What is the big issue here? The guy is keeping you lot entertained while working overtime! in a game at that! And it's not like both positions combined make more than $10 to $20 a session and that's on a good day!.

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Although i do agree with what you are saying, i don't agree with the example. In the OP's example, one person is doing two jobs at the same time, pretending it is two different people and getting paid twice for the same time. In your example, it is one person doing only one job at the same time. They are not being payed twice for that time, but only ones.

But that's only nitpick, cause i do agree, if one person is doing two jobs at the same time, he or she might as well be payed/tipped for each job they do perform successfully and satisfactory.

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EvaFord wrote:


Mickey Vandeverre wrote:

I don't think that my values are all that different.  I have the same issue with marketplace reviews that are placed by alts.

It is a deception that affects the customer.  It also affects a hard working merchant that is not gaming the system, that probably has similar values as yours, and probably conducts business the way you approve of.

But I think that the situation you are describing is very different. 

Because someone expresses that they don't think your situation is something to get bent about, does not mean that they have entirely different values than you.

 

 

Yes, and that is what I meant when I said Paradigm Shift.   Theser posts have made a difference in my thinking. 

I have been very ill and shut in and SL gives me a place to chat and learn and discuss issues.   I do know that some people use ALTS to cause great personal harm.  My topic  may be insignificant in comparison, I know. 

  I was not aware of the damage ALTS can do to business owners. That definately needs to be addressed and made known.  .   And No, this is just an interesting topic to discuss here with the hope for change.

It is not something to destroy my love for SL  and the new friends I am making here. Thank you for for offering your concern.  I do feel we have similiar values.

 

I think that you offered up a great discussion. 

I could tell some stories, and many others could, as well, about alts trying to damage business owners that would make your head spin.  (but I don't want to give anyone any ideas :)  One certainly could not dream up some of the scenarios all on their own!

But I think that some take those with a grain of salt, or work around them, because the luxury of being able to run a business without giving up your street address to a bunch of creeps, is rather pleasing.

You cannot have it both ways.  Everyone is anonymous, or no one is anonymous.  Anyone who puts real life info into their profile is asking for a heap of trouble.

In other venues, I have to give up info to participate in the marketplace.  But so do the customers.  There is a bit of a control and safety in that.

That is not what this venue was designed for, as far as I know.  The marketing and videos and most interactions did not really imply that we were mimicking real life here.  Years ago, very rarely did someone ask for real life info.  That was a huge faux pas. 

Somewhere along the line, it started changing.  Same thing on the entire web.  You used to be able to log into a "space" and fit in quite well as Miss12345 and participate in discussions, projects, goals.

I think that facebook messed that up quite a bit.  It has now become ordinary to demand every detail of a person in order to participate in some venues.  There is a lot of pressure there.

SL is kind of a last frontier, last bastion, last soft place to fall....

...if you are not willing to give up your entire life on the web.

 

 

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Mickey Vandeverre wrote:

"Wait? I am lost here? My point is that you stated your rules clearly and I either agreed to follow them in order to receive L$. or I did not. So I am asking you to reveal that you are using an ALT in order to receive my tips. NOT asking you to reveal personal info about your life.

Personal info has nothing to do with it. Making an ALT giving it a RL and a fake photo and making it your partner and begging me to tip "her" is not acceptable to me.

That is terrible you got burned that way. No I definately feel that ALTS can serve a purpose in SL and no one has a right to your personal info in SL. EVER. And to out someone or destroy a business or do hurtful things to others is definately NOT acceptable to me."

 

ok, well I guess you've changed your mind during the course of the thread then, because in the beginning you said you were sitting on someone's Real Life info.  The fact that you even went after that, in the first place, is questionable.

Ultimately, I did not get burned, learned a valuable lesson.  There is a paranoid person lurking around each corner, revved up and ready to make some false claims.

 

Yes,  I have evolved and that is the power of a good give and take discussion.  Also having the chance to clarify just what the issue is in the first place. That is a product of  restating and re evaluating. 

  I do see in the original post that my rhetorical question about posting in YOUR profile was not clear. I never intended to post his personal info in MY profile and this is really more info than I ever intended to give out at all.   

But it is only offered as a hope for change as far as ALTS, real money, and shady business practices go.

 

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It is !   And it is wonderful to be a part of this evolution. Things are changing so fast and just like any System the more you are involved in it the more it changes and grows just by that very fact that you are engaged in it.  

It is an Art Form ! 

I would love to have a thread to hear funny stories that do not compromise a persons privacy.  That could be fun. 

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"I know the guests who recognize that it is an ALT are laughing at the guests who are interacting with it."

 

This says more about those guests than about the DJ/host. And they are actually already taking care of your problem, cause when the in-crowd is ridiculing the other guests, those guests will not enjoy their stay and leave, without tipping the DJ/host.

I'm sure many DJs use alts for hosting or dancing on their DJ booth, or whatever else lifts up the party and makes the guests enjoy their stay and hopefully tip them. It looks to me that the in-crowd of this club is hurting the club (-owner) more by making the other guests feel uncomfortable, than the DJ/host is by running two jobs at the same time.

BTW: Maybe the in-crowd feels in fact the same way as you do. Why otherwise would they ridicule other guests for not knowing?! They probably feel duped themselves by the DJ/host and clearly consider it to be humiliating. Otherwise they didn't have to prove so hard that théy already know.

But you are not coming accross as any better with your desire to "out" the DJ/host. You might want to ask yourself if you are really angry with the DJ/host and if yes, could it be for something else? Or, are you maybe angry at the people who are putting the other guests down and ridiculing them?

What i don't understand is, why you want to hang-out at a club where you don't like the DJ/host nor the in-crowd?! There are so many nice places in SL with friendly and fun people. If you just want to help the club owner, you might as well let him/her know that you don't experience a nice atmosphere at the club, then they can make their own investigation (visit the club as an alt?) and draw their own conclusion.

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This Club has many DJ's  he is just one of many.  . 

I agree, I would never hang out where the atmosphere is so toxic.  

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HI Theresa,  

Yes, that was in the original idea for the discussion. But it seems to have gone to the wayside.  I offered that idea as a solution to the problem of anonymity that scammers hide behind. That maybe TOS needs to be updated.when Dj's are using ALTS and asking you to pay them L$ .  I do feel I have a right to know if I am paying someone twice just because their computer can run multiple ALTS..  .

  Outing with personal information was never my intent and if you read back in the threads you will see that I did offer some info as to how I know this person is using an alt to get more tips.

This is a business. I do not care what this DJ does with his ALTS when he is not asking for my L$.

I do not choose to reward the DJ for lying to me in the ALTS  RL profile and providing a false RL photo. That is just dishonest. And then to add insult by continually asking me to tip this ALT,  I don't think so.   

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EvaFord wrote:

That was not meant personally to you.  If you are reading the thread I HAVE angered some people and I am GUESSING that they MIGHT BE DJ's with ALTS.   This is in no way meant as an accusation. I am sorry you are offended.

ethical or not it all comes down to the right of every person to come into SL and do whatever they like as long as it does not violate the TOS.

And a business owner has the right to take my money under false pretenses? Our to
present that I am being served by two people when in fact I am being served by only one
?  Interesting.   And I can never understand how people can tolerate scamming and stealing intelectual property just because it is a virtual world and they can. Without morals and ethics you have no social order.  The difficult is defining them so that they work for the good of all.

I haven't finished catching up with the thread, so forgive me if it's been stated already. I bolded the part that caught my attention. This is SL. Who knows what in fact we are being served by? What if it's an extremely intelligent cat who's on the other end of that dancer's moniter? What if in fact it wasn't a giant three headed monster that just KOed me in that fight, but was instead Fred from down the street?!?! 

One of my favorite DJs is a man in rl using a voice morpher I'm fairly certain, but so what? She's a great DJ, and presents herself here as a woman. What business of mine is it to contradict that? Would she too fall victim to the public figure outings?

 

 

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I am fine with that !   I have no problem with men being women or women being men.  I tip and I tip well.  I am not interested in their personal reasons for their choices.

 They are not asking for me to tip them my L$ twice.   

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the ethic problem is: that a person is lying to its customers to increase revenue.

in the case of this Host/DJ, a better ethic practice would be to:

a) fill the profiles of both accounts with true information.

b) fill out one of the profiles with true information, and the other left blank or with a sign that his/her real life is private.

c) left both profiles blank or with a sign that his/her real life is private.

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  • "Yes, just because we are in a Virtural World it is important to retain a sense of ethics.Even though we are in a virtual environment we are interacting with other people and if we behave irresponsibly, we will hurt others.
  • I have found that someone who will scam you on a small thing will steal from you on a large scale if given the opportunity.
  • “The same anonymity and freedom that allows people to explore new identities and to create and collaborate in new and productive ways online allows them to deceive others and undermine community norms with little accountability.
  • Many players doing “unethical” things justify their actions by downplaying their significance, arguing that "it's just a game"; others justify and condemn actions only in the context of the rules set by designers, arguing that "if the game allows you to do it, go for it." 
  •  These are quotes except for the one in red.and came from Sam Gilbert's Blog.

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I agree that ethics should play a roll in SL . Specially when money is involved. I hardly find it unethical for someone to perform 2 jobs and be paid for it in tips. They didn't charge you to enter or enjoy their music or venue, so there is no scam involved. It takes a lot of talent to work 2 jobs at once.

I think the more unethical things I have seen some club owners do is. They run or Have a big event that pays 5,000 lindens ( or what ever the money prize will be) and at the end of the event, the owners  ALT wins. To me that's just totally out of line.

Most good venue owners run a clean respectable place and have a certain level of ethics that they follow. Unfortunately, there may be a few bad seeds in the crowd as always in any community, real or virtual

I had a host working for me once that lied to the general public about being disabled and that her daughter had died recently. ( all was untrue bold faced lies) just to scam the guests out of pity tips. She quickly got fired when we found out what she was doing...  But it takes all kinds. What she did was lower than low. Underneath ethics LOL

 

I think what you experienced is not a problem on a large scale. Not everyone is bad and not all venues are corrupt :)

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You play SL with an avatar that is an extension of your RL self and I assume you fill out your profile accordingly and are expecting everyone else to do the same if they are in business because anything else is a lie and a lie is a scam, and any small scam means they will steal from you in a large way  That is a gross generalization and is just shaky grounds for imposing your choice on other's.  It is not superior ethics.

You said that not tipping is not an option for you, but you only want to tip certain avatars and so those avatars should disclose everything you need to see if they conform to your criteria.   People give you the information you need to decide if they fit the criteria - or they don't, you tip or not based on if they prove they fit your criteria.  If they choose to not give you the information you want then all you can do is not tip..  There is no other choice.

BTW saying 'I guess"  didn't negate the fact that you wanted other readers to consider that those that disagree with you are DJ's doing the same thing and implying that  their opinions should be discounted.

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Personally, I feel that a person who puts false information in their "real life" profile section to be unethical.

I would also consider someone who discusses the ethics of a specific person in a public forum without disclosing and in some ways actually concealing material facts about their own relationship with this person, such as a longstanding business and perhaps personal relationship, to be a person of far from spotless ethics themselves. This would be even more the case if they were deliberately using an ALT to disguise their SL identity and if they claimed to justify witholding the evidence of their relationship by "not wanting to identify the other person" when in fact their primary concern was to hide their own identity.

Just as a hypothetical case, of course.

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