EvaFord Posted September 22, 2012 Share Posted September 22, 2012 There is a DJ in SL who uses an Alt as his Hostess/Partner. He claims "She" is voice verified implying that this ALT is female. He even made a fake first life profile with a fake photo of this ALT Partner. I find this unethical. Guests are being asked to Tip the DJ's Alt. I see it as a Scam. Since this is a Public figure in SL. Someone asking you for L$, do you feel that it should ok to post information about this in your profile? I feel that people who ask to be compensated in SL, need to be required to be honest as to where that money is going. Should Public Figures be exempt from some TOS disclosures.______________________________________________________________________________________________Added ADDED at last of discussion: If you had started this thread by saying, "There's a person that I know from long personal experience is a scam artist and I want to keep others from being hurt, what can I do?" you probably would have been given some good advice. Several people have noted that your motives were NOT clear. Go back and read your initial post and see if it sounds like what you're saying now. Most people think it doesnt.Thank you.. This was definately an issue in the discussion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sassy Romano Posted September 22, 2012 Share Posted September 22, 2012 You don't have to tip them. End of drama. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EvaFord Posted September 22, 2012 Author Share Posted September 22, 2012 That isn't the point. The point is being scammed. Maybe you would choose NOT to tip them if you knew it was a scheme to trick you into tipping. Drama Ends when People who are asking for money are honest about what i is for. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Catwyn Posted September 22, 2012 Share Posted September 22, 2012 I honestly have no idea if it is ok or not to post this warning in your profile I personally would guess not simply because it is the safer choice. Where I am getting stuck on this whole thing is that I do not see any proof at all that this person is running both avatars. ALl I see is the you claim this person is doing this and that he claims he isn't. A forum is really a bad place to ask people to make judgement calls like this. The readers only see part of the story and usually the truth is somehwere in between the stories of the 2 parties involved. On no forum I have ever been on has this sort of post ended well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EvaFord Posted September 22, 2012 Author Share Posted September 22, 2012 This is a discussion Forum. This is a good place to address TOS and honesty in business practices in SL. This is the issue I want to address. I have proof this is an ALT, but I would never post it unless TOS allowed it for Public figures asking for $L. I am asking if TOS should cover Public figures asking for $L. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Theresa Tennyson Posted September 22, 2012 Share Posted September 22, 2012 There aren't any "public figures" in SL because there's no public sector or government. If asking for money was the definition of "public figure," everyone who owned a Subway shop in RL would be one. I also have a close friend who's a DJ in SL so I know what's involved. If someone's able to run two viewers simultaneously in a crowded club environment, juggling back and forth between them to make comments, while simultaneously streaming audio I'd be very impressed and want to know what kind of computer and internet service they had. I think the simpler explanation would be that you're, well, wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sassy Romano Posted September 22, 2012 Share Posted September 22, 2012 EvaFord wrote: This is a discussion Forum. This is a good place to address TOS and honesty in business practices in SL. This is the issue I want to address. I have proof this is an ALT, but I would never post it unless TOS allowed it for Public figures asking for $L. I am asking if TOS should cover Public figures asking for $L. It doesn't so you shouldn't. A DJ is NOT a public figure, they just happen to be a person doing something at a club, they're as public as all the attendees. A public figure would be someone who is elected and in a position of power, I don't feel that a DJ is exactly that. TOS should just let people be, like I said, you're not forced to pay anyone so just move on. If you feel that you're paying someone you don't believe is the right person... don't pay. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Catwyn Posted September 22, 2012 Share Posted September 22, 2012 EvaFord wrote: This is a discussion Forum. This is a good place to address TOS and honesty in business practices in SL. This is the issue I want to address. I have proof this is an ALT, but I would never post it unless TOS allowed it for Public figures asking for $L. I am asking if TOS should cover Public figures asking for $L. And my point is that the fact that it is impossible really for readers on a forum to verify truth of such things is exactly WHY such public naming and shaming is not allowed in most places. It is very easy to make an error and destroy someones business even though your own intention was good. Then there are those folks who woud do it to deliberatly destroy someones business to eliminate competition or for some other more personal reason. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teagan Tobias Posted September 22, 2012 Share Posted September 22, 2012 The TOS is a set of laws, it should apply to everyone, fairly and equally. As far as the DJ using an ALT as his host sounds very ingenious, and if the host works hard then I see no problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EvaFord Posted September 22, 2012 Author Share Posted September 22, 2012 Thanks for the comments. I do believe that a DJ is a Public Figure like your local radio announcer or DJ, not just one of the guests. They are recognized at the different venues in SL and are offering a paid service to the Clubs, parties, etc. I know the guests who recognize that it is an ALT are laughing at the guests who are interacting with it. And the Club owner who is cluless. If I was hiring a DJ, I would expect to know if Alts were being used. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amethyst Jetaime Posted September 22, 2012 Share Posted September 22, 2012 You may suspect this is an alt of the DJ, but how can you prove it without everyone having access to LL's records. Any 'proof'' you show could easily have been manipulated by you and is therefore not evidence. If you do decide to publish what you think you know, expect to be AR'd and hopefully banned from SL. Disclosing RL information about someone is a TOS violation, even if the exposure shows that an avatar is an alt of someone. There are no exceptions for 'public' figures, nor should there be. I question if a DJ is a public figure anyway as he is just performing a job. Performing a job in public doesn't make you a public figure. I would bet that if you told us the name of the DJ (which you can't under forum rules) that 95 percent or less of the SL population would not recognize it. I don't know why you are trying to start trouble here. Even if the avatar is an alt, if the alt performs the duties of a host well and makes time in a club more enjoyable, they should be tipped. After all if you had two jobs you deserve to be paid for both, Tipping is also a voluntary activity. All in all, given what you have said, this just sounds like you have a personal ax to grind with the DJ and reflects more poorly on you than the DJ. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EvaFord Posted September 22, 2012 Author Share Posted September 22, 2012 WOW I am amazed at the nerve this touches. I do not think I am the appropriate target for your hostility. "Methinks the lady doth protest too much" Revealing information is NOT the issue. I t is not my place to out this ALT to his fans. But a Club owner has the right to know who she/he is hiring and if they are subjecting their guests to ridicule. Please KNOW that I will NEVER post this info. It is un ehtical. That is the ISSUE. Business ETHICS. Honesty in business practices is MY concern. And that HONESTY falls on the shoulders of the business owners and the Club owners. There should be a code of Ethics. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Theresa Tennyson Posted September 22, 2012 Share Posted September 22, 2012 EvaFord wrote: WOW I am amazed at the nerve this touches. I do not think I am the appropriate target for your hostility. "Methinks the lady doth protest too much" Revealing information is NOT the issue. I t is not my place to out this ALT to his fans. But a Club owner has the right to know who she/he is hiring and if they are subjecting their guests to ridicule. Please KNOW that I will NEVER post this info. It is un ehtical. That is the ISSUE. Business ETHICS. Honesty in business practices is MY concern. And that HONESTY falls on the shoulders of the business owners and the Club owners. There should be a code of Ethics. Two-and-a-half hours ago you were saying you wanted to post this information in your profile and your only concern was whether you could get in trouble with TOS. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Perrie Juran Posted September 22, 2012 Share Posted September 22, 2012 I'll agree that this is less than scrupulous behavior. The concept of someone being a "Public Figure" in SL, well, there are some DJ's who are well known. We could go around in circles if that categorizes them as "Public" in SL. Obviously it does not make them RL public. While sometimes we wish LL would better define what is and isn't acceptable behaviour in SL, for all due and intent purposes, as far as LL is concerned, SL is a game and some people are going to game the system. I just recognize that this comes with the turf. You could try AR'ing them for Fraud. How the Lab would respond, sometimes we do really wonder how they apply the rules. It is possible that LL would agree with you. I hate to say that more than likely they won't. What we do know is that "outing" someone's Alt in SL is a violation of the TOS. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EvaFord Posted September 22, 2012 Author Share Posted September 22, 2012 At last, someone who understands what it means to be a Public Figure. Dj's do advertise and send out notices and invites and advertise venues for money. SL has become a very sophistocated "Game" It is time for some accountability. If nothing else, an attempt at personal integrity in business situations. Club owners have the right to know if they are working with an ALT. Especially if interacting with this ALT causes ridicule and embarassment to them and their guests. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dilbert Dilweg Posted September 22, 2012 Share Posted September 22, 2012 I have seen some unethical things in my time . But my question is this. Did the ALT perform as a host and greet residents? and at the same time Also DJ? If the resident performed 2 jobs. Why can't he/she be paid for performing 2 jobs? And why would it be a scam or unethical if this person worked 2 jobs and got paid for it? Hosting and Being a DJ at the same time takes a lot of talent LOL It is customary in the United States to be payed for services rendered Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Perrie Juran Posted September 22, 2012 Share Posted September 22, 2012 Amethyst Jetaime wrote: You may suspect this is an alt of the DJ, but how can you prove it without everyone having access to LL's records. Any 'proof'' you show could easily have been manipulated by you and is therefore not evidence. If you do decide to publish what you think you know, expect to be AR'd and hopefully banned from SL. Disclosing RL information about someone is a TOS violation, even if the exposure shows that an avatar is an alt of someone. There are no exceptions for 'public' figures, nor should there be. I question if a DJ is a public figure anyway as he is just performing a job. Performing a job in public doesn't make you a public figure. I would bet that if you told us the name of the DJ (which you can't under forum rules) that 95 percent or less of the SL population would not recognize it. I don't know why you are trying to start trouble here. Even if the avatar is an alt, if the alt performs the duties of a host well and makes time in a club more enjoyable, they should be tipped. After all if you had two jobs you deserve to be paid for both, Tipping is also a voluntary activity. All in all, given what you have said, this just sounds like you have a personal ax to grind with the DJ and reflects more poorly on you than the DJ. "I don't know why you are trying to start trouble here. Even if the avatar is an alt, if the alt performs the duties of a host well and makes time in a club more enjoyable, they should be tipped. After all if you had two jobs you deserve to be paid for both, Tipping is also a voluntary activity." If as the OP claims, both Ava's belong to the same person, THEN IT IS ONE PERSON providing the entertainment. Now while on the one hand it wouldn't matter to me if they were running a hundred Alt's in the club, when I tip, I am still tipping ONE PERSON Linden Dollars that cost me RL money that they can (and I know DJ's who do) convert to RL money. Now while there is nothing wrong with a DJ converting Linden dollars to Real Money, If the ONE PERSON is using two accounts surreptitiously to obtain extra Linden dollars, then they are tricking people into paying them more for the entertainment they are providing. While I will give the DJ kudos for being able to run two Ava's simultaneously, if the situation is as the OP describes, then it is still ONE PERSON using trickery to obtain extra tips. Legal under the TOS? More than likely. Ethical? No. I'm surprised at your humbrage here. edited to correct a typo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EvaFord Posted September 22, 2012 Author Share Posted September 22, 2012 No, I was discussing TOS as they are now and holding DJ's and Public Figures to a different standard as in RL. . Please RE read my comment. I think I have made it very clear that I want to discuss Standards and Ethics issues. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EvaFord Posted September 22, 2012 Author Share Posted September 22, 2012 I take umbrage when I, or my guests, interact with the female Alt and are then surprised to learn that SHE is not only a HE but also the DJ and we are being duped for laughs and our $L. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Theresa Tennyson Posted September 22, 2012 Share Posted September 22, 2012 EvaFord wrote: There is a DJ in SL who uses an Alt as his Hostess/Partner. He claims "She" is voice verified implying that this ALT is female. He even made a fake first life profile with a fake photo of this ALT Partner. I find this unethical. Guests are being asked to Tip the DJ's Alt. I see it as a Scam. Since this is a Public figure in SL. Someone asking you for L$, is it ok to post information about this in your profile? I feel that people who ask to be compensated in SL, need to be required to be honest as to where that money is going. Public Figures should be exempt from some TOS disclosures. There, you can read it your own self. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EvaFord Posted September 22, 2012 Author Share Posted September 22, 2012 Yes. I know what I wrote. And it is a QUESTION. Do you think it is ok? Should it be ok? Do you want to discuss this topic with me? Since this is a Public figure in SL. Someone asking you for L$, is it ok to post information about this in your profile? I feel that people who ask to be compensated in SL, need to be required to be honest as to where that money is going. Public Figures should be exempt from some TOS disclosures. No where did I say anything about posting info as TOS is right now. BUT should Public Figures be held to a different TOS. You certainly have a right to disagree or agree. That is why we have discussion forums so people can look at both sides with civility. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Celestiall Nightfire Posted September 22, 2012 Share Posted September 22, 2012 EvaFord wrote: There is a DJ in SL who uses an Alt as his Hostess/Partner. He claims "She" is voice verified implying that this ALT is female. He even made a fake first life profile with a fake photo of this ALT Partner. I find this unethical. Guests are being asked to Tip the DJ's Alt. I see it as a Scam. Since this is a Public figure in SL. Someone asking you for L$, is it ok to post information about this in your profile? I feel that people who ask to be compensated in SL, need to be required to be honest as to where that money is going. Public Figures should be exempt from some TOS disclosures. I'm laughing over the part that I bolded. Do you know how many people try to pull scams in SL? There are the people who run scams saying they have cancer and ask for money. There are people who run "psycho-analytic" scams, astrology scams, and many post fake "real life" pictures that can be found out on the internet using tin-eye. There are fund-raisers for charity organizations. RL organizations where if anyone really wants to give they can just go to the RL website. But, instead these people ask someone to give their anonymous avatar in lindens. First, no one is exempt from the TOS. Second, scammers in SL are vast and endless. You want to make sure they are honest? You've got a full-time job on your hands. If you don't really care about all the dishonest scammers, but just have it out for this one person, then just report your suspicions to the club, and move on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Celestiall Nightfire Posted September 22, 2012 Share Posted September 22, 2012 EvaFord wrote: That isn't the point. The point is being scammed. Maybe you would choose NOT to tip them if you knew it was a scheme to trick you into tipping. Drama Ends when People who are asking for money are honest about what i is for. I've spotted a bunch of scammers in SL. Do you want me to send you a list so you can add them to your crusade? Because, EvaFord, it's an endless list of scammers. They flock to SL because of the anonymous aspect here. Many are way worse than someone running both a DJ and another avatar at a club. How about someone who says they are in end-stage cancer and solicit money for that...and has a whole group and alts to scam people? How about some who has a "real life" picture that can be found on blogs where the entire blog post is about how that person has gone around the internet and scammed people with her "I'm dying of this disease, give me money" scams? Where would you like to start? I suggest the person with the fake dying scam, that one really irks me. Perhaps, you'd like to put on your profile that you're a Scam Detective, and ask for people to send you leads. That way you can go after all the scammers. Won't end the Drama though. Scammers are endless. But, might keep you busy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EvaFord Posted September 22, 2012 Author Share Posted September 22, 2012 And I am laughing at your resignation to the idea that it HAS to stay like this. We have a right to be warned about scamming in SL. Don't you agree? At this point in time No One Is Exempt From TOS. But we both know that can change ! And Club owners can protect their patrons from scams. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Celestiall Nightfire Posted September 22, 2012 Share Posted September 22, 2012 EvaFord wrote: Yes. I know what I wrote. And it is a QUESTION. Do you think it is ok? Should it be ok? Do you want to discuss this topic with me? Since this is a Public figure in SL. Someone asking you for L$, is it ok to post information about this in your profile? I feel that people who ask to be compensated in SL, need to be required to be honest as to where that money is going. Public Figures should be exempt from some TOS disclosures. No where did I say anything about posting info as TOS is right now. BUT should Public Figures be held to a different TOS. You certainly have a right to disagree or agree. That is why we have discussion forums so people can look at both sides with civility. We aren't Linden Lab employees. None of us can change TOS. But, since you've asked, no I do not think that "Public Figures" should be exempt from the TOS. Who decides the definition of "Public Figure"? Plus, there is no reason for someone who is a supposed "Public Figure" to have to have that kind of treatment/harassment. That would mean that anyone for any reason could out a SL business owner, or sim owner, or helper at a class, or a blogger, or photographer, model, etc. Anyone who did anything in SL, could be a "Public Figure"...and "exempt" which somehow you translate to not being able to be anonymous? Oh, hell no. You have an issue with this one person, and you want to instigate something that burns the TOS rules for your special designated class of people? "Public Figures?" Wow....no way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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